Nef Handi Rifle in 45/70

[BIGMOOSE]

Hello to everyone.

I have some question that I would like to ask.I am starting to reload some and i'm trying to get some Information.I want to load a 300 grain hp/fn sierra prohunter.The power I will be using is Imr-4198.What would be the max on power charge?Another question I have is determining how deep to set my bullet.How do you guys determine were to set the bullet off the lans and what works best for you?I was going to Start seating my bullet just enough to close my chamber.Would it be better to let the bullet touch my lans or be off some?The last question I have is which Rcbs dies would be the best choice for me to use?I hope I didn't ask to many question and thanks for the help.

Moose

[quickdtoo]

Congrats! If it's a modern framed Handi made since 1999, you can use any 45-70 load that you can stand, but most 45-70 Handi owners prefer to stay in the trapdoor to mid level 1895 loads due to the recoil. I like to load close to the lands and it's not hard to do with most H&R 45-70s due to their short jump to the lands, in fact I throated 3 of mine so I could load bigger bullets to a longer length, but you won't have any problems with 300gr bullets. If you do load into the lands, be sure to use start data, the start pressure will increase considerably when loaded into the lands, ~7kpsi.  Hodgdon 1895 data pushes that bullet to 2407fps(24" barrel) with their max load of 57.2gr IMR4198 with a COL of 2.540", but I wouldn't start there, I'd just work up to it from their start of 53.7gr. Their Ruger/modern rifle data goes to 58.5grC @2450fps, not a lot to be gained with that powder at that level but a bunch more pressure. Personally I've had better luck with H4198 with 300gr bullets in the 1895 to Ruger level, but if you're not looking for the best velocity, the IMR4198 should work fine for ya.

I can't say about the RCBS 45-70 dies, I used Hornady New Dimension dies whenever I can, their seating die is fantastic for keeping the short, fat 45-70 bullets straight with little to no bullet runout, .002" is the most I've ever found, something that's very important for accuracy IMO, more so than seating depth.

Tim

[BIGMOOSE]

Thanks Tim that was some really good info. I have one more question and it concerns pressure signs.Can you tell me what I should be looking for when loading max levels?

[quickdtoo]

Pressure signs in straight walled cases aren't always evident from what I've learned and read, about the only thing I've seen myself is sticking brass in my 405 Winchester H&R which is an ejector model, primers looked fine, and flat primers in my 500S&W H&R with max loads with Lil'gun and 700gr Ranger Ricks, other than those two chamberings, I dunno if you would see it in the 45-70 Handi case. I suspect measuring pressure ring and casehead expansion would tell you, but if you stay within published data using their components, you shouldn't have any problems, and likely you'll decide long before you get to that point that the recoil is a far more limiting factor.

On an H&R, if the barrel release is hard to push after the shot, it's likely from too much pressure, not enough to cause failure, but an indication that the load is too warm. Haven't seen that with any rimmed cartridge, but have with rimless high pressure loads like the 300WSM experimental barrel and my 280 Improved.

Tim

[BIGMOOSE]

Thanks for the help Tim.I will post some results after I get home and load some up.

[tykempster]

I would certainly try some H4198, velocities from the little case are outstanding!  Death ray to 200 yards!

[dpe.ahoy]

Picking your glasses and hat up off the ground after the shot IS a pressure sign.   Gotta second what Tim said, the New Dimension dies work real good in every set I've tryed.  My RCBS work ok but I really like how the sleeve guides the bullet into the case on the Hornady dies.  DP

[tykempster]

On dies, my Lee dies have delivered plenty of cloverleafs at 100 yards.

[BIGMOOSE]

Is there anyone on here who's tried the 300 grain Sierra Prohunter bullet?I haven't tried it yet,but sierra always makes a good bullet.

I will pick me up a set of Hornady dies.Does anyone have a Model number?

[quickdtoo]

Here's their item numbers for the die set and dies.

Tim

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=399196412ce88e8d2811ae5fed5fad27&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=67af7adceac38f3310ff260aed88e261

[Mike Britton]

Is there anyone on here who's tried the 300 grain Sierra Prohunter bullet?I haven't tried it yet,but sierra always makes a good bullet.

I will pick me up a set of Hornady dies.Does anyone have a Model number?

Yes, I tried some a friend gave me, and they worked well in my rolling block with 3031.

[tykempster]

If you're just plinking or shooting at deer the Remington bullet has been good to me for less $$$ which is always a plus.

[BIGMOOSE]

If you're just plinking or shooting at deer the Remington bullet has been good to me for less $$$ which is always a plus.

Well what i'm hoping is to get a 0 to 300 yard bullet for deer hunting.I have confidence in the sierra bullets ,but i'm always open for suggestions.I still got some work to do to my little rifle but it shoots Leverevolutions pretty good.Im getting about a 2 inch group at 100 yards.I don't have a trigger job or anything else at the moment.I have been reading through the Faq's and learning some interesting stuff.Im not very good at Gunsmithing so I will leave that to the experts.

[tykempster]

I took a doe at 300 yards last year with the Remingtons.  Complete penetration of the shoulders and DRT.  Here's how they shoot-

100 yards-


200 yards-


300 yards (big holes)-

[BBF]

I am somewhat puzzled over the distance you plan to use the 45-70.

Figuring a MV of 2400 fps with the Sierra bullet( you might not find that a pleasant experience)
 you get the following ballistics

       100 yards= +4 1/4"
       200   "    =   ZERO
       300   "    =   minus 20" 

[coyotejoe]

I guess I can't understand why anyone interested in 300 yard shots would choose a 45/70. Even pushing the 300 grain bullet to the max (OUCH) it is hardly going to be a flat shooter. Not that I'm knocking the 45/70, I've owned 9 of them over the years and have one today but I never thought of them as 300 yard rifles.

[Mike Britton]

I guess I can't understand why anyone interested in 300 yard shots would choose a 45/70. Even pushing the 300 grain bullet to the max (OUCH) it is hardly going to be a flat shooter. Not that I'm knocking the 45/70, I've owned 9 of them over the years and have one today but I never thought of them as 300 yard rifles.

At my Uncle's ranch there was a Diamond tire sign by the railroad tracks 545 paces from the "shooting table". My cousin and I would shoot my #1 sporter rolling block in .45-70 at that sign. With black powder the round would take so long to get there you could bring the rifle down from your shoulder before it struck the sign. The round wouldn't even penetrate the thin sheet metal sign. Smokeless loads of 3031 would be a little faster, but not much.
At that distance the old round had used up ALL of it's energy. IMHO, the .45-70 is best out to 150-175 tops.

[BIGMOOSE]

Well the reason I want my 45/70 to be able to kill a deer at 300 yards is I live in Mississippi.We can use them for our primitive weapon.Another reason is when i'm hunting out of my shooting house I will be able to take a deer that far if I chose too.   

[MSP Ret]

for you that do not think the .45-70 cannot be effective at long distances, goggle the following:

 .45-70 At 2 Miles: Sandy Hook Test 1879

there is another story of a long shot by a .45-70, Buffalo Wells?, nope but something like that, someone here must remember that...

[Mike Britton]

Was the buffalo wells shot a .45/70? Somewhere in my burnt out brain I keep remembering .45-125.

[Smokin Joe]

If you're speaking of the Adobe Wells shot, it was a 50 Sharps (.50-90)

Billy Dixon made a hit at 1538 yds.

[quickdtoo]

Here's 2400fps and 2500fps figures for the Sierra 300gr .458" HP/FN using their Infinity 5.1 software, both are zeroed at 200yds

Tim

Trajectory for Sierra Bullets .458 dia. (45-70) 300 gr. HP/FN at 2400 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.12   0.145   0.185   0.21   0.23
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2400   1900   1400   1150
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2400.0   3836.3   3.20   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2258.7   3397.7   3.01   -0.2   0.63   0.0   0.032213600
50   2122.0   2999.0   2.83   -0.82   2.34   0.0   0.066472331
75   1990.1   2637.9   2.65   -1.92   3.57   0.0   0.102969643
100   1870.9   2331.2   2.49   -3.58   4.24   0.0   0.141895780
125   1775.0   2098.4   2.36   -5.85   4.3   0.0   0.183054316
150   1682.7   1885.9   2.24   -8.82   3.66   0.0   0.226453954
175   1594.4   1693.1   2.12   -12.55   2.26   0.0   0.272246843
200   1510.3   1519.2   2.01   -17.14   0.0   0.0   0.320584685
225   1430.9   1363.7   1.91   -22.68   -3.21   0.0   0.371611338
250   1361.4   1234.5   1.81   -29.28   -7.48   0.0   0.425398988
275   1300.3   1126.1   1.73   -37.06   -12.93   0.0   0.481780935
300   1244.0   1030.6   1.66   -46.12   -19.66   0.0   0.540768980


Trajectory for Sierra Bullets .458 dia. (45-70) 300 gr. HP/FN at 2500 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.12   0.145   0.185   0.21   0.23
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2400   1900   1400   1150
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2500.0   4162.6   3.33   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2337.6   3639.3   3.11   -0.18   0.51   0.0   0.031072110
50   2198.3   3218.5   2.93   -0.76   2.12   0.0   0.064158021
75   2063.7   2836.5   2.75   -1.79   3.28   0.0   0.099371217
100   1934.0   2491.2   2.58   -3.33   3.93   0.0   0.136913674
125   1828.6   2227.0   2.44   -5.45   3.99   0.0   0.176854480
150   1734.2   2003.1   2.31   -8.23   3.41   0.0   0.218973361
175   1643.6   1799.3   2.19   -11.72   2.11   0.0   0.263399732
200   1557.1   1614.8   2.07   -16.02   0.0   0.0   0.310285911
225   1475.0   1449.1   1.96   -21.21   -3.01   0.0   0.359781516
250   1397.8   1301.3   1.86   -27.41   -7.01   0.0   0.412023748
275   1334.2   1185.6   1.78   -34.71   -12.13   0.0   0.466954298
300   1275.1   1082.9   1.70   -43.24   -18.46   0.0   0.524470552

[quickdtoo]

Some alternatives:

A 32" Buffalo Classic barrel with get you 150-200fps more velocity over the 22" barrel.

Trajectory for Sierra Bullets .458 dia. (45-70) 300 gr. HP/FN at 2600 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.12   0.145   0.185   0.21   0.23
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2400   1900   1400   1150
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2600.0   4502.3   3.46   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2421.9   3906.7   3.23   -0.17   0.7   0.0   0.029888297
50   2275.2   3447.7   3.03   -0.71   2.53   0.0   0.061865865
75   2138.0   3044.4   2.85   -1.67   3.94   0.0   0.095871970
100   2005.5   2678.9   2.67   -3.1   4.88   0.0   0.132092668
125   1882.5   2360.1   2.51   -5.08   5.27   0.0   0.170731097
150   1786.2   2124.9   2.38   -7.66   5.06   0.0   0.211634261
175   1693.5   1910.0   2.26   -10.93   4.16   0.0   0.254760607
200   1604.6   1714.9   2.14   -14.96   2.5   0.0   0.300262195
225   1520.0   1538.8   2.02   -19.83   0.0   0.0   0.348290991
250   1440.1   1381.2   1.92   -25.64   -3.44   0.0   0.398992354
275   1369.0   1248.1   1.82   -32.5   -7.93   0.0   0.452461788
300   1307.3   1138.3   1.74   -40.52   -13.58   0.0   0.508538081

I get 2350fps in my 24" SS 45-70 Ultra with the 300gr TSX-FB which is a pointed bullet, sighted in 5" high at 100yds, it's 12" low at 300yds and has a couple hundred pounds more energy than the Sierra that's running 250fps faster out of the gate.


Trajectory for Custom .458"  Barnes TSX-FB at 2350 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.23   0.23   0.23   0.23   0.23
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2300   2300   2300   2300
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2350.0   3678.1   3.13   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2261.4   3406.0   3.01   -0.2   0.74   0.0   0.032534345
50   2174.6   3149.6   2.90   -0.83   2.56   0.0   0.066355020
75   2089.7   2908.5   2.78   -1.91   3.92   0.0   0.101537454
100   2006.8   2682.2   2.67   -3.5   4.79   0.0   0.138161829
125   1925.8   2470.2   2.57   -5.62   5.11   0.0   0.176313045
150   1846.9   2271.9   2.46   -8.33   4.84   0.0   0.216081142
175   1770.2   2087.1   2.36   -11.68   3.94   0.0   0.257560630
200   1695.9   1915.5   2.26   -15.72   2.35   0.0   0.300848848
225   1624.0   1756.6   2.16   -20.51   0.0   0.0   0.346044341
250   1554.9   1610.2   2.07   -26.13   -3.17   0.0   0.393245770
275   1488.6   1475.8   1.98   -32.65   -7.25   0.0   0.442549619
300   1425.4   1353.2   1.90   -40.15   -12.3   0.0   0.494045647

I dunno if 2500fps is doable in the 32" BC, but the numbers look good!!

Trajectory for Custom .458"  Barnes TSX-FB at 2500 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.23   0.23   0.23   0.23   0.23
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2300   2300   2300   2300
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2500.0   4162.6   3.33   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2408.2   3862.6   3.21   -0.18   0.49   0.0   0.030566556
50   2318.4   3579.7   3.09   -0.73   2.1   0.0   0.062308089
75   2230.4   3313.3   2.97   -1.69   3.31   0.0   0.095290355
100   2144.3   3062.4   2.86   -3.08   4.08   0.0   0.129585099
125   2060.1   2826.6   2.74   -4.95   4.38   0.0   0.165269538
150   1977.8   2605.4   2.63   -7.33   4.17   0.0   0.202425470
175   1897.6   2398.3   2.53   -10.26   3.4   0.0   0.241139609
200   1819.5   2204.9   2.42   -13.8   2.03   0.0   0.281503737
225   1743.6   2024.8   2.32   -17.99   0.0   0.0   0.323613569
250   1670.1   1857.7   2.22   -22.9   -2.74   0.0   0.367567075
275   1599.2   1703.3   2.13   -28.59   -6.27   0.0   0.413462877
300   1531.0   1561.1   2.04   -35.13   -10.64   0.0   0.461399398

[LONGTOM]

Boys I can't say how far a 45-70 is effective to but I have witnessed on more that one occasion that a factory Winchester 300gr HP from a 26" barreled Highwall make a complete pass through both shoulders of a deer at over 280 yds and one at 327yds measured by a 100' foot tape.
I was also a wittiness to the same load in a custom bolt action gun at about 70 yds pass through not 1, not 2 but 3 THAT'S RIGHT 3 deer, killing two and putting the third one down. The first one it killed out right.
The second one went about 30 yds and was dead when we got there and the third one was a instant drop with the bullet breaking the neck.
It did require a finishing shot from a 41mag.
The first and second deer was an intentional shot with two other shooters as back ups.
The third was a young doe that no one saw on the other side of the first two.
I didn't condone the shot at the time and I still don't but this was done by a local game warden on a cluing permit for the county.
I know this sounds very far fetched but the fact is it DID HAPPEN just as told.
IMO a 45-70 has enought power to do some pretty amazing things.


LONGTOM

[tykempster]

Blackpowder loads will for sure kill stuff at 500-600 yards.

If you take the time to know your gun then you can easily make a 300 yard shot.  Some people don't see the 45-70 as a 300 yard gun...I know I do.

[quickdtoo]

I think if I was a handloading Handiholic living in MS, I'd opt for one of the new 35 Remington Handis if I couldn't get hold of a 35 Whelen, then load the 35 Remington to Super 35 Rem levels using data from the 1982 Handloader article by Layne Simpson, but using the Hornady .358" 180gr SSP, flatter shooting without all the recoil associated with the 45-70.

Tim



Trajectory for Hornady .358 dia. 180 gr. SP-SSP Interlock at 2400 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.248   0.248   0.248   0.248   0.248
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1440   1440   1440   1440
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2400.0   2301.8   1.92   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   2315.3   2142.1   1.85   -0.19   0.35   0.0   0.031816783
50   2232.3   1991.3   1.78   -0.79   1.79   0.0   0.064807267
75   2150.9   1848.7   1.72   -1.83   2.8   0.0   0.099035578
100   2071.2   1714.2   1.66   -3.33   3.34   0.0   0.134570211
125   1993.2   1587.6   1.59   -5.34   3.37   0.0   0.171483432
150   1917.1   1468.7   1.53   -7.9   2.85   0.0   0.209851596
175   1842.8   1357.0   1.47   -11.05   1.75   0.0   0.249755300
200   1770.5   1252.6   1.42   -14.84   0.0   0.0   0.291278533
225   1700.3   1155.3   1.36   -19.32   -2.44   0.0   0.334507348
250   1632.4   1064.8   1.30   -24.55   -5.63   0.0   0.379528611
275   1566.8   981.0   1.25   -30.6   -9.64   0.0   0.426429265
300   1503.8   903.7   1.20   -37.54   -14.53   0.0   0.475294355

[petemi]

I guess I can't understand why anyone interested in 300 yard shots would choose a 45/70. Even pushing the 300 grain bullet to the max (OUCH) it is hardly going to be a flat shooter. Not that I'm knocking the 45/70, I've owned 9 of them over the years and have one today but I never thought of them as 300 yard rifles.

At my Uncle's ranch there was a Diamond tire sign by the railroad tracks 545 paces from the "shooting table". My cousin and I would shoot my #1 sporter rolling block in .45-70 at that sign. With black powder the round would take so long to get there you could bring the rifle down from your shoulder before it struck the sign. The round wouldn't even penetrate the thin sheet metal sign. Smokeless loads of 3031 would be a little faster, but not much.
At that distance the old round had used up ALL of it's energy. IMHO, the .45-70 is best out to 150-175 tops.

300 yards is only the beginning for the .45.70.  As previously stated, with black powder loads, it was shot successfully at 2 miles.  Mine hasn't killed yet past 350 yards due to lack of opportunity.  Get a mil dot scope and learn it, and you can shoot and kill as far as you can see if you don't use whimpy loads.  Yeah, it is NOT a flat shooter.  Just learn the arc and it will definitely kill when it gets there......it may be a while!

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Used to visit with an old man that shot a Trapdoor in 45-70.  He would stick his tongue firmly in his cheek and then tell about having to put salt in his hollow point bullets to preserve the meat till he could walk to where the animal was.

I do know that old man lived for years in a cabin way back in the hills and ate government mutton year round.  He always appreciated having folks drop off supplies if they rode out his way.  He hated going to town.

Mike