22 hornet accuracy

[cjclemens]

I have a ruger 77/22 hornet and it wont shoot anything heavier than 40 grain bullets with much accuracy.  The 35 and 40 grain v-max are dynamite (literally), but my groups got a bit wide when i tried some 45 grain sierra varminters.  Has anyone had any luck with heavier bullets on the 22 hornet?

[Catfish]

I`m shoot 3 in. groups with 52 gr. Sierra bullet at 200 yrds. wit a 14 in. Contender and a 4X scope. I think it would do better if I put mu 2 1/2 x 8 Leupold on it. That is with Lil Gun powder.

[lakota]

When I had my Ruger 77/22 Hornet(it was the heavy barrel matte stainless one) Accuracy really suffered with any bullet over 40 grains, and I tried several different powders. It  would shoot the Hornady 45 Grain Hornet bullet well. It really liked 12.6 grains of Lil' Gun with a 40 grain V-Max and Winchester Standard Small Pistol primers. I tried small rifle primers but accuracy suffered.

I regret trading that gun even though I like what I got in return for it. I find the Hornet to be an interesting caliber.

[coyotejoe]

I've been working with an old Savage M-219 singleshot in .22 Hornet and my best accuracy to date has been with 55 grain bullets at 2000-2200fps. That has not been great, 1 1/2-2" at 100 yards, but is better than I have gotten with lighter bullets and that is from a 16" twist which isn't supposed to stabilize 55 grain bullets, go figure.

[IOWA DON]

I recently read in some magazine (I forgot which one) that poor accuracy of many .22 Hornets results from the very thin brass in the Hornet's neck. That is, the brass is so thin that upon the primer being ignited, the bullet jumps out of the case before the powder begins to burn. Then the bullet stops when it hits the rifleing lands, then again accellerates foreward when the powder generates enough pressure to force the bullet down the barrel. In most other cartridges the brass at the neck is thicker and the bullet is not released from the cartridge until the powder burns enough to build up a lot of pressure. The bullets from most cartridges do not start, stop, and starp again like the Hornet. Anyway, that is supposed to be the problem whith Hornet accuracy and the reason that some Hornets give better accuracy with small pistol primers. The pistol primer have less power and don't blow the bullets out of the cases. Also, .17 Hornets are supposed to be more accurate than .22 Hornets because necking down the Hornet necks results in a proportionaly thicker neck, which better holds the bullet against pressure from the primmer. My .17 Hornet is very accurate and not at all finicy about loads. Almost any load shoots accurately in it. I have a .22 Hornet, and it shoots well some loads but poorly with others. I had a 219 Savage in .22 Hornet and it would shoot very accurately with the 45-grain Sierra (semi-pointed) hornet bullet loaded to about 2400 fps. At full velocity accuracy went bad. - DON

[Nobade]

It's the twist rate. Most hornets have a 1:16 twist, and will not shoot heavier bullets. TC contenders and NEF handi rifles have 1:12 barrels and will accurately shoot 55 or 60 grain bullets. My own Sako 78 will only start to group 45 grain bullets above 2100 fps, anything less is all over the place. Anything heavier is a waste of time. Also, throating has a lot to do with it since the SAAMI hornet chamber has a very poor throat, accuracy wise. This is why K hornet rechambers are usually more accurate, not only is the body recut but the throat is usually changed to be more friendly. (More gentle angle).

[Gohon]

I owned a Ruger 77/22 Hornet for about two years.  During that period I tried everything I could think of to get that gun to shoot with consistent accuracy.  Different powders, different bullets, neck sizing only, use of pistol primers and on and on.  One day I could shoot very tight groups and a few hours later with the same loads they would be all over the place.  The problem is the two piece bolt that Ruger uses which is very sloppy with a lot of play.  The Hornet head spaces on the rim and you never get the same cartridge position from shot to shot.  Ruger tells you if it is 2 inches or less at 50 yards then it is within specs as far as they are concerned.  There are a few gunsmiths that make some good money on the Rugers by changing the cross pin in the bolt to a tighter fit, sleeving the bolt and resetting the head space.  I've run into a lot of people that had the same problem and frustration I had.  On the other hand I've met some that claim their 77/22 is a tack driver with all loads.  Maybe it is just the luck of the draw. 

I thought about going the K-Hornet route since the real advantage of doing so is the cartridge would then head space of the shoulder instead of the rim and once the head space is reset, accuracy usually greatly improves.  My solution was to trade the gun in for a Browning A-Bolt Micro Hunter and I couldn't be more happier.  Sub MOA at 100 yards with anything I feed through it.  I liked the feel and looks of the Ruger better but the Browning simply shoots rings around the Ruger I had. 

[saltydog]

Since I bought a 17 HMR and a 204 Ruger my Hornets sit in safe and are very lonely. The Hornet is still fairly inexpensive to shoot based on cost of your bullets. I stick with the 35 gr. vmaxs as I like the velocity advantage they offer. I get excellent accuracy from a couple of NEF's - a heavy barrel and a pencil thin one with sights.

[alsaqr]

I've shot the .22 Hornet extensively for decades.  Currently own several of them.  All of my guns are accurate because I will not keep a gun that does not shoot well.   Most accuracy problems in modern .22 Hornet rifles is directly attributable to the SAAMI chamber specs.  The SAAMI chamber is huge.  Foreign made rifles do not have SAAMI chambers and they shoot well. 

It turns out that even the minimum SAAMI chamber specifications are a loose fit on maximum Hornet ammo. With a maximum chamber (but still to spec) and minimum ammo (again, still to spec), you have room to throw a cat in the chamber along with the cartridge. The guns fire, and safety isn't an issue within the specified limits, but it does make for poor accuracy. It turns out that all the guns that I could find that shot well had minimum (or smaller) chambers.

http://www.huntingmag.com/guns_loads/22_hornet/

[cjclemens]

I have run into the loose chamber specs and thin brass issuses before, yet my hornet shoots .75" groups @ 100 yards all day long with the 35 gr. v-max bullets and Win 296 powder.  I get fairly similar groups with the 40 grain v-max as well.  Its only when i jump to 45 grain bullets that I start getting wide groups.  The twist rate seems to be the most logical explanation thus far.  Perhaps there's a critical velocity that I need for the ruger to perform well.  I guess Ill just stick to what works!

[Gohon]

European gun makers use what is called C.I.P. specs for their cartridges and chambers.  They are for the most part tighter and shorter than those with SAAMI chambers.  But wouldn't that only be a problem, if it exists at all with a particular rifle, when using factory ammo?  Once you fire the cartridge you have fire formed the case to your rifle.  If you reload and neck size only I wouldn't think this would be a factor. 

As with all good things there is also a possible down side.  If you by chance get a rifle with minimum C.I.P. specs you may find that SAAMI spec cartridges won't chamber at all or, are hard to chamber.  In some cases with single shot rifles the action cannot be closed.  Apparently rare but something to be aware of.  I know this is off topic but thought it good information to know.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_l_problem

[cjclemens]

as far as i have noticed, the chamber pressure of the little hornet cartridge isnt quite enough to reform the case by much at all.  When reloading 22 hornet, I usually only resize the neck because of the thin brass.  Full length sizing would most likely end up as a destroyed case.  Even when being careful, i only get an average of 5 loads from a case before it fails.  I have also noticed that hornet brass tends to enlongate more than other cartriges (probably due to thin brass), so trimming cases to length is critical.  I also put a light crimp on mine with a factory crimping die.  I would think this helps keep the bullet in place as pressure starts to build.  One way to mitigate problems caused by loose saami specs is to play with your cartrige overall length.  Getting the bullet closer to the rifling almost always helps, but if the throat of your rifle's chamber is particularly deep, then you cant do much about it.

These are just some observations ive made while fooling around at the reloading bench.  if anyone else has suggestions, i'd love to hear them.

[Tallwalker]

I just picked up a used Ruger 77/22 Hornet a while ago, and have just started playing with it. I've only shot 50 grain jacketed bullets, and the Lyman 22596 cast bullet in it so far. The Ruger has a 14" twist so it should stabilize those bullets ok. My loads with AA 1680 powder show some promise with both the Sierra Blitz, and the Hornady SX 50 grainers. My rifle seems to like Winchester small pistol primers the best. Headspace is a major issue with the Hornet, and most other rimmed cartridges. If you look at the SAMMI specs between the max cartridge, and the min chamber, you would be shocked at the room that leaves for things to roam around. The Hornet has such a long taper in the case that it aggravates the problem, and the two piece bolt in the Ruger can be influenced by pressure from rounds in the magazine to push the chambered round  out of alignment with the bore. Some of those problems can be minimumized by fitting the brass to your chamber. I took one lot of brass and necked it up to 24 caliber, and then resized the cases until they just chambered. I neck size the fired cases, and think that helps. Fitting an oversized breech block in the Ruger No.1's, and No.3's helps too. Next time I'm out I'm going to fire some groups with, and without the magazine just to see if there is the difference I expect to find. I'm thinking that could explain the reports I read about the Rugers shooting well one day, and not so well the next. At any rate the Hornet is a fun cartridge to play with, and shoot! We just got the 100 yd backstop fixed at our range, so all my shooting has been at 50 yards so far. Five shot groups usually contain one flier (me?) and have run between .5", and 1", without the flier, many have been in the .2's, and .3's. It's teasing me!

[Old English]

sounds like a lot of work to me. I got the Savage 40 and eliminated all that fuss, I love the rifle and the caliber.

[Bob A]

sounds like a lot of work to me. I got the Savage 40 and eliminated all that fuss, I love the rifle and the caliber.

 Old English,

Tell us about the Savage 40. I really like my Handi Hornet and have been tempted by the Savage 40.
I take it you would recommend the Savage.

Bob A

[Old English]

Bob, there is not much to tell. I bought the Savage as I have had good luck with them. Options are limited in Hornet.
The rifle has an action very similar to a Marlin rimfire, but with an accutrigger. Mine came with the laminated thumbhole stock, which is apparently a special order. I like the thumbhole stock but my left handed friend does not. It is a pretty accurate gun, in that within 100 yards you hit what you aim at. I bought a box of Privi Partizan ammo when I got the rifle and on paper it was about 1.5" groups. I have subsequently reloaded for it using that brass and some new brass, various bullets. I haven't really done any serious paper punching with it.
I bought it as a cheap to shoot rifle. I live on 16 acres in the country, I can shoot a lot. The Hornet using 13gr of powder and recoil/report like a 22 mag seemed like a good choice as a plinker/hunter. I enjoy all my other centerfires but the Hornet is plain good fun and so cheap to reload for .
I stuck a Monarch 3/9*40 scope on it and it does all I need it to do. My wife loves to fill beer vans and op 'em off from various distances, shoot squirrels and the odd rabbit. I can easily recommend the Savage.

[cjclemens]

sounds like a lot of work to me.

It's not a lot of work.  Knowing all the tips and tricks related to reloading a certain cartridge makes the effort much more rewarding.  Knowing some of these things can certainly save a lot of trial and error time at the reloading and shooting bench.  I think the same goes for any caliber.

[mcwoodduck]

I too have the Ruger and I get really good results with the 35 grain Hornady stuff and the 46 grain Win stuff is minute of Javilina/ Coyote at 150 yards.  Another guy I met on line here.  Robert has a mix that he uses in his Handi and holly cow is it accurate out of his gun and did great things out of my ruger.  When I get dies for  the Hornet I will start making what he makes.  E mail me and I will send it to Robert to see if he will part with his recipe.

[Old English]

CJ, I understand the relaoding process and reload for far too many calibers already, I was really referring to the Ruger specific things mentioned,
"The Hornet has such a long taper in the case that it aggravates the problem, and the two piece bolt in the Ruger can be influenced by pressure from rounds in the magazine to push the chambered round  out of alignment with the bore. Some of those problems can be minimumized by fitting the brass to your chamber. I took one lot of brass and necked it up to 24 caliber, and then resized the cases until they just chambered. I neck size the fired cases, and think that helps. Fitting an oversized breech block in the Ruger No.1's, and No.3's helps too. "

Fireforming and loading, that is the limit of my ability.

[Gohon]

CJ, here is a picture link on how to take the bolt apart and add a shim should you want to try that route.  I took the bolt apart on the gun I owned but did not have the means to properly cut the shim/washer from stainless stock so I did not try this.   Also I added a link to a guy that seems to have a favorable reputation for his quality work on the Ruger 77/22 Hornet should you or anyone be interested.

http://www.centerfirecentral.com/rugerbolt.html

http://www.ct-precision.com/

Will add another link for working the Ruger bolt which I believe is the same person as the first link.     http://www.centerfirecentral.com/ruger22h.html

[cjclemens]

I havent run into any actual problems with the 77/22 hornet.  I have found a couple loads that work exceptionally well and a bunch that dont.  I can honestly say that I've shot well enough with it that I dont think I would get any benefit from making any modifications.  That being said, you can give 10 people the same rifle, and they will each have a different experience with it.  Things I've mentioned here are cartrige specific (i.e. saami specs and thin brass), not rifle specific.

[coyotejoe]

Yesterday I ran a few more loads through my old Savage 219 and am now getting pretty consistently under 1.5 inches but the 55 grain bullets are still the best from that 16" twist with a few small pits in the bore. I seat them to bump the lands and have run AA-1680, Vihtavuori N-120, AA-9 all with about the same accuracy at 2200-2300fps and also RL-7 a bit slower but about the same groups and H-110 at about the same speed but not so good groups.
  The older gun writers used to speak of the Hornet as being an "inherently accurate round", but I've owned several and always found it more troublesome to get fine accuracy than any other .22 caliber round. I think time had lent enchantment to their memories. Back in the '30s, when few rifles wore scopes and 3 MOA was considered pretty good I have no doubt a scope sighted Hornet seemed impressive compared to the open sighted 30/30 but today I think a K Hornet of a 218 Bee or .221 fireball is much easier to load for sub MOA groups and the .222 even easier still.

[JonJon]

I own a Browning A-bolt Hornet...
Shoots just fine....
It's enjoyable and can tag varmints well enough...
I'm wondering though, because of all the "bottle neck" small caliber rounds out now if....
anyone has any thots on the .20 Hornet BDR wildcat...
Experience, information, attempts at  building one, published reloads etc.

JonJon

[mcwoodduck]

Jon Jon,
Someone did.  I remember reading an article about a 19 something.  Where they took the Hornet case blew it out and necked it down to 204.  Thought it was neat at the time but the 204 Ruger had not come yet and I thought it would be hard to find projectiles.    But this is a thread for another forum.  Wild cats probably.

[cjclemens]

I dont have any experience with the K hornet, 218 or 221, but in terms of accuracy, the 222 is hard to beat.  It's by far one of the most accurate and forgiving designs out there.  I'm sure that time has given some favor to the cartridge and you might consider that prior to the 22 hornet, the .25-20 was the varmint round of choice.  However, despite all quirks there might be with the hornet, my Ruger will shoot MOA goups with factory Winchester ammo and, with reloads, even better.  Everyone seems to have a different experience with it.  I guess thats why some love it and some hate it.

[JonJon]

"Jon Jon,
Someone did.  I remember reading an article about a 19 something.  Where they took the Hornet case blew it out and necked it down to 204.  Thought it was neat at the time but the 204 Ruger had not come yet and I thought it would be hard to find projectiles.    But this is a thread for another forum.  Wild cats probably."

Thanks MWD,
I'm off to the wildcats....
JonJon

[1armoured]

Yes, I've also read that the problems mostly arrive from the thin skin of the neck..

Case consistency is the key, as well.

Unfortunately, I don't have any gear to measure thickness, runout etc, and I haven't bothered to weigh any cases, or measure capacity.
I have Winchester and Remington cases mostly,
with a smattering of Hornady and E.European.

I just make sure that they are all just within length specs,

and have found that using Lil'gun, small pistol primers, and good bullets, (Nosler 40gr Ballistic Tips) the groups can get pretty tight. It also like 50 gr PSP's.

I did use 35gr Hornady Factory loads in an old Brno (CZ) and it shot the best. (Hadn't discovered Lil'Gun yet !)
I noticed that these factory rounds were crimped, and projectiles cannelured.
Loose projectiles are not cannelured.
Maybe crimped is the way to go ?

I now shoot a Savage Model 40. Best thing Hornet, since sliced bread.
(Being a single loader, you can seat the longer projectiles out, and still get plenty of Lil'Gun powder into the case).

I've tried Czech and Balkan 45gr roundnose ammo, with variable results,

but here's what my 40gr and 50gr Lil'gun loads can do at 100mtrs (that's 110yds in old money !).
So it's not the rifle !!!!
(I have a tendency to pull right, and that's where the odd one goes, unfortunately.)
cheers,
Nosler 40gr BT


and Hornady 50gr SP

[cjclemens]

Great shooting!  Especially with the 50 grain bullets.  I've never gotten mine to perform well with anything heavier than 40 grains.  The 35 grain v-max is even more impressive in mine, but either the nosler ballistic tips or hornady v-max in 40 grains do well enough.  I usually do put good crimp on my hornets when Im reloading - it seems to help the thin brass hold the bullet in place better.  Ive never tried lil gun, but Ive had a lot of success with both Win 296 and H110.  I havent had my hornet on a rest in a while.  I might do that this weekend and see what happens.

[Bob A]

Maybe crimped is the way to go ?

I crimp my Hornet loads with a Lee factory crimp die. 40 Vmax with all the little gun that will fit (13.5gr) and small rifle primers.
Load is from the Hornady book. I did try small pistol primers, as many have recommended, but I get better
groups with the rifle primers.

Bob A

[LaOtto222]

There is no doubt that the necks on Hornet cases are thin. How much that has to do with accuracy is doubtful to me. Bench rest shooters chamber for "tight" necks and turn down the necks on their cases quiet thin (as thin as 22 hornet necks) some times and get excellent accuracy. I suspect the problem really lies in the chamber size in relation to the case (too much slop) and a sloping shoulder. For a gun to shoot well it needs to head space off the shoulder, not the rim. I think that is the reason, that most 22-K Hornets are more accurate than the regular Hornet along with other wildcats, like the 17 Hornet and 19 Calhoun to name just a few. Also the bench rest crowd seats their bullets into the lands or very close to the lands, while the typical Hornets of today have long throats. In my Savage Model 40 the throat is so long that I can not set the bullet out far enough to reach the lands with out being too long for the stroke of the bolt. In other words, if I seat the bullets out to touch the lands, I can not eject the cartridge only the case after it has been fired. In a Ruger 77/Hornet the magazine length dictates OAL and it does not reach the lands. I think crimping helps keep the bullet in place until the powder starts burning well since the bullet is not up against the rifling. Just because the Hornet has a thin neck does not automatically mean they are inaccurate; there are a lot of other factors in play. With that said some times you run into a Hornet that shoots very well, but it will never be in the bench rest class, not even close. Most Hornets will shoot acceptably (under 1") at 100 yards when you find a load it likes. This translates into 2" at 200 yards, which is accurate enough for varmint shooting and the extreme side of it's range. I can get a 223, 221, 222 to shoot better than a Hornet. There are a host of others that fall into that same category. So why mess around with them? THEY ARE FUN, you get a sense of accomplishment when you find a load it likes and relatively it is cheap to shoot. I have three of them