Don't Over Clean Your Handi

[jdwolf]

To date,  my 223 Handi has had 300+ rounds fired through it without cleaning the bore and it's shooting about 2 inch groups at 100 yards.  Also,  I've been hearing most 223 Handi's get their best accuracy with Remington UMC 55 grain loads.  I've been getting great results using Remington UMC 45 grain hollowpoints. 

[jmayton]

I'm not sure I'd be satisfied with 2" groups knowing that it can be much better.  I guess I don't overclean mine, but it does get a few patches down it every now and again.  My 30-06 (Savage) started to print some wide groups and the culprit was copper fouling, so I try to watch out for that.  As for the Remington UMC loads, mine will shoot about 1.5-2" with them.  But it'll do .75-1.5" with the Winchester white box and .75-1" with my handloads. 

[tykempster]

I wouldn't be happy with 2" groups, but that's me.

[Graybeard]

To me at least a .223 that doesn't keep pretty much all five shot groups under an inch at at least most under three quarters of an inch is not suitable for its intended purpose whether that purpose be popping prairie puddles or punching holes in paper.

I don't own a handi so chambered so dunno what the guys who do get from them as far as accuracy is concerned but for sure 2" groups at 100 yards in ANY .223 at my house would me it gets some needed work to get the groups down or the gun would be on the trading block the next trip to the gunstore.

There are numerous tips in the help thread here to assist you in improving the accuracy of your handi and I'd suggest you read and heed them. But if you've had that many rounds down the barrel since it last had a really good cleaning of the barrel then it is way over due and that along should help. I'd clean to bare metal and start shooting again and when you reach that sweet spot each barrel has of the correct mix of cleanliness and fouling it should do better even if you do nothing else.

[PHATINJUN]

For the most part the best I have ever gotten with the UMC55's is 2" and mine is even worse with the 45's.This is from a bbl that will and does shoot 1"easy and under 3/4" most of the time with my reloads. The best factory loads I have shot are the blackhills reloads they stay near 1". GB is right most are not happy with 2" in a 223 as they are capable of much better. I've gotten to near 300 rounds before with my reloads before a good cleaning but the factory stuff has rarley gotten to 100 rounds before getting patches. Kurt

[LONGTOM]

I would say it's about time for a cleaning, or at least a bore snake.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not one who cleans after every section but 300 is pushing it a little IMO.
I usually go about 75 to 130 shots depending on the gun.
My 17 REM requires it after only 8 to 10 rounds and then 2 or 3 to foul it before it will shoot again.
My 223 Contender carbine which I just sold back to it original owner would do about 125 to 150 before it needed attention.


LONGTOM

[jdwolf]

I stand corrected.  Maybe my Handi does need a good cleaning and/or try some different loads.  I thought 2 inch groups was pretty good.  Allow me to remove my foot from my mouth,....LOL!!!

[LaOtto222]

Are you pushing my leg? If you are then Ha Ha. If you are serious - Has your gun gotten gradually better until you have reached 300 rounds or did it reach that level at say 100 rounds and stayed there? For the most part I am not very happy with 2" groups out of any thing but pistol type cartridges and I do not plan on shooting them much further than that any way. If you take your 2" group and shoot at a PD at 300 yards you are talking a 6" spread or more. You will miss as many as you hit, even if you hold exactly dead center every time with no wind. Your success rate would not reach 50% in reality. Every gun does things differently. Some like to have a clean barrel to shoot it's best some like a dirty barrel, but few like a filthy barrel. I mean when the copper fouling gets so bad, the accuracy drops off. Even in the guns that I had that like a dirty barrel, I run a few patches down it once in a while to maintain it's edge, not cleaning it completely, but get some of the crud out. If I had a "varmint" caliber that shot 2" groups at 100 yards, I would be doing some serious work on the gun and loads to get it under 1". I usually am not happy until I can get it in the .5" range at 100 yards. If I could not get it under 1", it would be trading material. That is one reason I am wary of buying used any thing with a rifled barrel. If it was such a great gun/barrel, why was it sold? About the only "varmint" guns that I have that shoot in the 1" range are 22 Hornets and I do not shoot them at 300 yards, about 150 or so. The further you shoot, the more important it is to be accurate. IMHO a 204, 22-250 or 243 (the long range guns) that can not keep it's groups under .5" constantly is not worth having as a varmint gun, you would be better off with a 222 or 221 Fireball, because they are cheaper to shoot and will still reach out with accuracy to the distance the 204 or 243 will that is not so accurate.

[petemi]

I agree with Laotto, if they won't cloverleaf 3 at a 100 yards, they're pretty well useless at 300 and beyond.  I've got that issue with my .22-250 right now and I'm working on it.  It's running about 2" and it isn't any good.  I missed a crow at about 325 last week and I figure I was about 3 or 4 inches high.  Part of it may have been my fault, I'm not really sure.

[jdwolf]

I'm by no means a sharp shooter.  But,  I thought if I could hit an 8 x 10 paper target at 100 yards and keep my groups within 2 inches that was pretty good.  Good enough to drop a coyote or groundhog in it's tracks. 

Correct me if I'm wrong here.  But,  I've always heard if you can hit the bullseye at 100 yards with a flat shooting rifle (and I can),  you'll be about 2 inches high at 200 yards but dead on target at 300 yards.     

[tykempster]

If you're 2 inches high you'll be on at 200, several inches low at 300.

[quickdtoo]

JD, you're too used to shooting those Hi Point pistols, long guns can actually do much better than 2moa, even most Handis!!

Tim

[jmayton]

I'm by no means a sharp shooter.  But,  I thought if I could hit an 8 x 10 paper target at 100 yards and keep my groups within 2 inches that was pretty good.  Good enough to drop a coyote or groundhog in it's tracks. 

Correct me if I'm wrong here.  But,  I've always heard if you can hit the bullseye at 100 yards with a flat shooting rifle (and I can),  you'll be about 2 inches high at 200 yards but dead on target at 300 yards.     

2 inch groups would most likely kill a groundhog at 100yds, but not 200, maybe not 150.  The margin of error increases with range.  1" at 100, 2" at 200 and so on.  So your 2" group is 6" at 300 yds.

I wonder if you're confusing point of impact (where the bullet strikes in relation to where you aim; i.e. 2" high at 100yds) with group size (the spread between 3 or more shots aimed at the same point). 

[Graybeard]

I'm by no means a sharp shooter.  But,  I thought if I could hit an 8 x 10 paper target at 100 yards and keep my groups within 2 inches that was pretty good.  Good enough to drop a coyote or groundhog in it's tracks. 

Correct me if I'm wrong here.  But,  I've always heard if you can hit the bullseye at 100 yards with a flat shooting rifle (and I can),  you'll be about 2 inches high at 200 yards but dead on target at 300 yards.     

There is some limited truth to your thoughts here but some glaring errors as well. Whatever YOU think is "pretty good" is if that's what your standard is at least for you it is. For the rest of us that's not necessarily so.

I will agree that a 2" group at 100 yards will indeed kill a ground hog or coyote at 100 yards. Beyond that distance maybe not and certainly not on a regular consistent basis. I'm assuming that group is from a solid bench support and in the field you're NOT gonna have that soild bench support so your groups will open up perhaps dramatically so from a field rest. That 2" groups might open to 4" or 5" from a field rest.

I'm not gonna look this up as it will vary anyway depending on bullet used and actual velocity but if you're 2" high at 100 yards your average POI should be close to zero at 200 yards but it will be at least 5" to 6" low at 300. The real problem with trying to shoot at such ranges tho is that as already has been stated you must expect groups to open in a progressive manner. A 2" group at 100 means at best a 4" at 200 and a 6" at 300 yards and as already stated from field rests you can generally at least double those sizes to 4", 8" and 12" for a realistic group size.

That's why from a bench my standard for a rifle chambered to a round like the .223 or any I use primarily for target or varmint shooting is that pretty much 100% of my five shot NOT three shot groups must stay under an inch and I expect most to be as a max in the one half to three quarter inch range. That's my MINIMUM standards and I try to make sure it beats that standard by a bit at least and if it doesn't then I don't push it beyond 250 yards.

My Remington Model Seven Predator in .17 Fireball is a straight stock factory rifle with no changes other than I adjusted the trigger to a pull weight of 2.5 pounds. It wears a Bushnell Elite 3200 7-21 scope. I've not begun reloading for it yet as I wasn't able to get dies and bullets until after I returned from the GBO Prairie Dog shoot in OK this year. It is easily staying at and under the one half inch group size from my bench on my range at 100 yards with factory ammo.

In the wind out in OK it was being blown around pretty badly over the 300 yard mark but inside of 300 yards and when the wind wasn't howling it was pretty much a dead PD every shot and yes I had a bench just as solid there as at home as that's do able on PD shoots. One morning the last one I shot we stopped at a spot near the land owner's home as he wanted the PDs there wiped out as thoroughly as possible to keep them from getting into his yard. I never missed a shot at that location every shot was a dead PD from the closest at about 75 yards taken with a rimfire to over 300 yards all but the one rimfire shot was taken with that .17 Fireball. Often all I had to shoot at was the head sticking up from the mound.

Each person's standards of measurement for their rifles is their business and just cuz mine is what I've stated does not mean yours needs to be. Not all rifles are created equal and not all are capable of the kinda groups my little Fireball is. If you are happy with 2" at 100 then by all means don't let us discourage you but do be aware that 2" at 100 yards from a solid bench does not turn into a 300 yard ground hog or coyote killing machine from field rest positions and at 200 yards you'll like miss or wound about as many as you kill cleanly. If that's acceptable to you then no problem and don't let my standards deterr you in yours. Heck I don't even like to shoot at big game beyond 300 yards from field positions and my big game rifles all do much better than 2" from a bench at 100 yards and most can match that at 200 but from field positions I'm just not comfortable shooting much over 300 yards at deer.

[Singleshotsam]

I think a lot of us are confusing measuring our groups in inches and measuring them in MOA.  If you measure a group by MOA your taking into consideration the size of the bullet.  A .17 caliber is much easier to shoot a sub 1" group but the moa of the group may be larger.  MOA for a .50 caliber will be 1.5" @ 100 yards.  Even though that is not sub 1" group, it is an MOA Group.  The .50 is a much larger diameter bullet than the .17. 

The easiest way to measure for MOA is to take a caliper, measure the diameter of the bullet you are shooting and zero it while you have the bullet between the calipers.  Then measure center to center of the two farthest holes in your group.  This will give you the MOA measurement. 

Here is another way...

One MOA is an absolute. 1 MOA at 100 yds is 1.047" (sine of 1 min. of 1 deg. X 3600 inches). To figure the MOA of your measured group (outside to outside), simply divide the group size by the MOA size at the distance you are shooting. For example, if you shoot a .66 group at 100 yds, that would be .66 / 1.047 = .63 MOA.

It's easy to figure MOA at common shooting distances based on the 100 yd figure by simple multiplication or division. You only have to remember one number: 1.047.

At 50 yds, it's 1.047 / 2 = .52",
at 300 yds it's 1.047 X 3 = 3.14".

So if you shoot that .66" group at only 50 yds, it's .66 /.52 = 1.27 MOA

[ironglow]

  I took Tim's advice and went with the Winchester white box 45 gr. After trying others, those work best for me.

[jmayton]

singleshotsam, i get what you're saying.  i've always equated 1 moa with 1" at 100yds simply because my math skills are lacking (but I know there is a difference), but i see what you mean about the bullet diameter.  that makes sense.  thanks for the clarification.

[Graybeard]

I think a lot of us are confusing measuring our groups in inches and measuring them in MOA.  If you measure a group by MOA your taking into consideration the size of the bullet.  A .17 caliber is much easier to shoot a sub 1" group but the moa of the group may be larger.  MOA for a .50 caliber will be 1.5" @ 100 yards.  Even though that is not sub 1" group, it is an MOA Group.  The .50 is a much larger diameter bullet than the .17. 

The easiest way to measure for MOA is to take a caliper, measure the diameter of the bullet you are shooting and zero it while you have the bullet between the calipers.  Then measure center to center of the two farthest holes in your group.  This will give you the MOA measurement. 

Here is another way...

One MOA is an absolute. 1 MOA at 100 yds is 1.047" (sine of 1 min. of 1 deg. X 3600 inches). To figure the MOA of your measured group (outside to outside), simply divide the group size by the MOA size at the distance you are shooting. For example, if you shoot a .66 group at 100 yds, that would be .66 / 1.047 = .63 MOA.

It's easy to figure MOA at common shooting distances based on the 100 yd figure by simple multiplication or division. You only have to remember one number: 1.047.

At 50 yds, it's 1.047 / 2 = .52",
at 300 yds it's 1.047 X 3 = 3.14".

So if you shoot that .66" group at only 50 yds, it's .66 /.52 = 1.27 MOA

You have your own unique way of looking at things. But no one else I know of looks at it the same as you.

Group size is not outside to outside and is NOT measured in MOA but in real world inches or fractions there of. It's the distance from Center to Center of the two bullet holes furtherest apart. That's the way the rest of the world does it. It is most easily done by measuring from the outside of a hole to the same side of the other hole as opposed to the center but the distance is the same. When I say one half inch I mean from the center of one bullet hole to the center of the other and it matters not if the bullet diamer is .171" or a full inch the center to center measurement is the same.

MOA has zip to do with group measurement.

[LaOtto222]

Minute of Angle (MOA) definition - The angle of an arc is expressed in number of degrees. There are 360 degrees of arc to a full circle. Each degree consists of 60 minutes of arc. The distance covered by the measure of arc is relative to the circumference (total distance around the circle) it is contained within. Knowing the radius (distance to center of circle) circumference is easily calculated by using the constant  pi  . The ratio (represented by  pi  ) of circumference is constant to diameter (radius x 2) regardless of circle size. The precise value of  pi  is so far unknown to man but is normally resolved to 3.1416 or 3.141 for our purposes.

In simpler words MOA is the distance of 1 minute of an arc with a 100 yard radius. It is actually curved, not straight. As has been pointed out as just a little over 1". If you connected 1 MOA times 60 minutes X 360 degrees together you would have a circle 200 yards in diameter. That is all Minute of Angle means. It just so happens it is close to 1" so many people say they shoot less than MOA which in reality is over 1".  You usually find some saying they shoot sub MOA. Meaning they are under 1" center to center. Everyone that I know, including myself, measures center to center of the widest bullet holes for group size. Or left edge to left edge or outside to outside minus bullet diameter. It is all the same, but they are a measurement. MOA only refers to an arc length. I suppose you could say that you shoot 1/2 MOA, but that only means you are in the ball park of .5" groups, not what the actual group size was. The benchrest fraternity does not measure group size in MOA, they use actual groups size in inches.

[Singleshotsam]

Yes they do measure their groups in inches, but I guarantee the benchrest fraternity are taking bullet diameter into consideration.  By doing that they are measuring from outside edge to outside edge and then factoring in the bullet diameter.  By doing this they are getting their true group measurement as varies from caliber to caliber. 

Also another point I was making is that a 1" group @ 50 yards is not truely a 1" group.  When you factor in your MOA + bullet diameter it becomes a much larger measurement.  In my previous post I gave the formula for calculating measurments less than 100 yrds. 

And yes, I realize that MOA is so close to 1" that it really doesn't matter.  Just wanted to bring up a curious discussion that I really haven't noticed yet on this forum.  A lot of ppl are measuring their .45 cal. and .50 cal groups larger than 1", but when you factor in bullet diameter these groups are actually better than the inital measurment would lead you to believe. 

Here's a good example
http://www.pbase.com/wingman26/image/54016929

[rex6666]

I may have to buy me a new yard stick.

[Singleshotsam]

Ok... my benchrest friend finally replied to my email explaining MOA in group measurement... here goes...

MOA=Minute of Angle.

It is a measure of the extreme spread.

1 MOA=1.046" at 100 yards, 1 MOA=2.092" at 200 yards, etc.

MOA is measured by measuring the outside to outside of the two
farthest shots of the group, then subtracting the bullet diameter.

For instance, if the group measures 4.150" at 200 yards with a .308
Winchester, you determine MOA by taking 4.150"-.308"=3.842 then divide
by 2.092"=1.837 MOA.

So to reply to your statement Greybeard... "MOA has zip to do with group measurement."... You now know how to correctly measure group size.

http://www.pbase.com/wingman26/image/54016929

[LaOtto222]

You are missing it. I will try to explain one more time. It is simple...Group size is center to center of the widest bullets - period. It does not matter method, it does not mater bullet diameter - period. I have never heard of anyone referring to his benchrest groups as MOA, but in inches;)

Not trying to put anyone down here at all, it is a good discussion and one I am sure everyone wants to be clear on.

[Singleshotsam]

I'm not missing anything.  I think some of us could do well by learning the correct method of measuring group size.
No offense intended towards anybody.  If benchrest shooters didn't subtract bullet diameter they would all shoot a .17 as it is .191" smaller than a .30 caliber bullet, and .383" smaller than a .50.  If you don't think that .191" or .383" matters in a br competition your crazy. 

Here is some additional information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_of_arc

"[edit] Firearms

This unit is commonly found in the firearms industry and literature,
particularly that concerning the accuracy of rifles. The industry
tends to refer to it as minute of angle rather than minute of arc. It
is popular because 1 MOA subtends approximately one inch at 100 yards,
a traditional distance on target ranges. A shooter can easily readjust
his rifle scope by measuring the distance in inches the bullet hole is
from the desired impact point, and adjusting the scope that many MOA
in the same direction. Most target scopes designed for long distances
are adjustable in quarter (¼) or eighth (⅛) MOA "clicks". One eighth
MOA is equal to approximately an eighth of an inch at 100 yards or one
inch at 800 yards.

Calculating the physical equivalent group size equal to one minute of
arc can be done using the equation: equivalent group size = tan(MOA ∕
60)*distance. In the example previously given and substituting 3600
inches for 100 yards, tan(1 MOA ∕ 60)∙ 3600 inches = 1.0471975511966
inches.

In metric units 1 MOA at 100 meters = 2.90888208665722 centimeters.

Sometimes, a firearm's accuracy will be measured in MOA. This simply
means that under ideal conditions, the gun is capable of repeatedly
producing a group of shots whose center points (center-to-center) fit
into a circle, the diameter of which can be subtended by that amount
of arc. (E.g.: a "1 MOA rifle" should be capable, under ideal
conditions, of shooting a 1-inch group at 100 yards, a "2 MOA rifle" a
2-inch group at 100 yards, etc.) Some manufacturers such as Weatherby
and Cooper offer actual guarantees of real-world MOA performance.

Rifle manufacturers and gun magazines often refer to this capability
as "Sub-MOA", meaning it shoots under 1 MOA. This is typically a
single group of 3 to 5 shots at 100 yards, or the average of several
groups. If larger samples are taken, i.e. more shots per group, then
group size typically increases. [2]"

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/

" The workmanship and attention to detail on the prototype were
superb, but what really intrigued me were the sub-1/4 minute of angle
(MOA) accuracy claims that he made for the rifle.  I figured that this
guy had to be either full of BS or had come up with a better way of
doing things.  As we talked further, I suspected the latter had to be
the case.  Still, I remained a skeptic. "

[Glanceblamm]

jdwolf, you really did not specify your shooting techniques (perhaps rested but not on bags?) and you did not even claim to have an aiming point on the 8x11 sheet of paper and may be going by that first bullet hole? If the above is true I would suspect that you could add another 100yds to your range and the group size would be around the same considering that caliber.

[AtlLaw]

Interesting discussion.... I think I only use MOA as a descriptive term, i.e.  "the rifle will shoot less then MOA all day long...," and then only when generalities suffice and are shorter to type...      I know I never state my group size in MOA terms...  it's easier to lie in inches... been doing that for a long time...  

[Singleshotsam]

We'll technically if your gun shoots 1" it is sub MOA...  not by much... but sub.

My point was to let people know (especialy people who shoot the big bores) that they are prolly getting a better group than what they are measuring and advertising.

[jmayton]

If you measure center to center and then measure outside to outside and subtract bullet diameter wouldn't the end result be the same?  I understand why br shooters do it the way they do....they usually have only one hole so measuring center to center is an impossibility.  But for practical shooting we're talking tenths to hundredths of an inch difference in measuring a group from a hunting rifle fired off of sandbags or a good rest if we measure in moa rather than inches.

[Singleshotsam]

Its usually easy to "fudge" a center to center measurement when scoring a group.  So you meaure the defined outside line and then subtract the diameter for maximum accuracy.  Not that it matters all that much just plinking or casual load develpment.  I just see the term MOA thrown around here a lot and never much explaination.  So for the record thats how its done

[LaOtto222]

Singleshotsam - +1 for me