What happened to the 444 Marlin???

[DC]

I was looking at some cartridge brochures and found little or no choices in 444 Marlin.  Everything I have read about it makes it sound like a great round...lots of punch, velocity and flexibility for different chores. 
Has it gone away?  It sure doesn't seem very popular if the factory cartridge selection is any indication.
Actually I was seriously thinking of trying to find a lever gun in .444 or 44 mag or 45.70. 
While I am not a big "walk for miles hunter", if the opportunity presents itself I will take a deer or in season legally.  I don't tromp around over hill and dale anymore and back seat rifle is more in line with what I want to do.
My hiking / camping / hunting side arm is a Ruger SBH in 44 mag with a 4 5/8 barrel. 

Your valued opinions please.

[Swampman]

"The .444 Marlin is a rifle cartridge designed in 1964 by Marlin Firearms and Remington Arms. It was designed to fill in a gap for the older .45-70 at a time when that cartridge was not currently available in any lever action, making it the largest at the time available lever-action cartridge."

I believe that when the .45-70 became available in the 1895 Marlin in 1972, the .444 started to lose it's following.  I really like the .45-70 myself.

[Oldtimer]

Winchester made several 94's in .444 Marlin.  I have the woods carbine, with a ported 18 inch barrell.  It is more compact than my Model 92, but packs one really powerful punch.  I don't have any trouble shooting it, but it scares people who are not familiar with it.  My older daughter's fiance flinched so badly the first time he shot it, he dug a trench about halfway to the target.  A couple more shots, and he was on paper.  This gun is a keeper.  The kids don't have a chance at it until after the funeral, and I may change my mind about that.  No telling how handy it might come in on the Happy Hunting Grounds.

[Mikey]

Got 3 Winchester 94AEs, all different lengths, thoroughly enjoy each.  Had a early Marlin with the 24" bbl and Monte Carlo stock but didn't know how to effectively maximize the caliber at that time and sold the rifle.  I later found the Winchesters and learned more about loading the 444 and have no intent of ever turning one over for anything else. 

Marlin should offer two versions, one with a shorter bbl in the Outfitter (?) (short bbl) series and the other a full length rifle with a 22" bbl.  I believe Marlin may offer a 6 groove Ballard bbl in one of those models, while the other (probably the longer bbl) might still be in Marlin's micro-groove rifling. 

There are ammo makers out there that provide sufficeient fodder if you do not reload.  The original Reminton round is pretty powerful and will suffice for most north American game within reasonable ranges.  Hornady makes a Light magnum round with a heavier bullet (265 gn instead of the 240 remington factory) and that does even better.  In addition, Cor-Bon and Buffalo Bore (I think) make some incredible whompers in that caliber, so I think you will be well covered if you find one.  Mikey.

[Rangr44]

[I was looking at some cartridge brochures and found little or no choices in 444 Marlin.]

As the old hot rod saw goes: "There's no substitute for cubic inches".

When the .45-70 started re-blooming, driven at first by Marlin, then Ruger (#1 & #3) & Winchester/Miroku & H&R, then re-inforced by bullet and cartridge makers like Nosler & Garrett - the .444 started (and continues) to come in a poor second.

I bought my first .444 in 1967, and was disappointed because Remington (the dummies) loaded pistol slugs into the long cases at the .444's higher velocities, causing bullet failure on close range shots.
I lost and/or destroyed three deer, before I finally started loading some Hornady 265gr.

The 70's .45-70 factory ammo was nothing to write home about, either - being so underpowered (for fear of Trapdoor's, etc) that shots much over 75 yards had to be lobbed.
When I first abandoned the .444 for a .45-70, I used to miss running deer that were at a distance (say 100 yds) because of the lead, etc issues - that are now minimal with the advent of modern 300gr express loads.

The point is, in those days, if you didn't handload, you were at a loss.
These days, we take for granted as factory loads, what was once unobtainium.

Ergo, many bibbore fans (like me) switched to the .45-70, and with only a few subsequent stabs at trying another .444, and stayed with it in the end.

I've found the .45-70 to be better in several regards:

It handles a 5x wider & 2x heavier range of bullets,
It's available in a 4x wider selection of makes/models, with some at 1/2 the investment,
It's 5x more resale-able than any .444

.

[243dave]

DC, Get a lever 44mag ! In a rifle its a 150 yd gun with a scope, kicks less, cheaper ammo and a more compact weapon then a 444 or 45-70 and it would pair up with that blackhawk. I have a 45colt win trapper and when loaded heavy it is a 44 mag. It has become my favorite rifle. It is the perfect short, lightweight rifle that has the power to shoot length-wise through deer with the right bullet. If you don't hunt watching over a field and stay in the woods it may be all you'll ever need.  Dave

[SharonAnne]

Hornady has 2 loads that generate over 3100 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle.

[WyoStillhunter]

There is nothing wrong with the .444 -- it is alive and well.  I know where the question comes from and it is a non-issue.

Having a zillion different factory loads on the market has been embraced by many as some sort of ultimate virtue when in actual fact you can only shoot one shell at a time.  I have outsmarted myself plenty of times in earlier years by skipping back and forth between different loads in a given rifle with the result of not really "knowing" any of them well enough when hunting season rolled around.

In the case of the .444 Marlin the Hornady factory Light Magnum ammo in 265 gr. FN Interlock does it all.  Handloaders have a variety of jacketed bullets to work with.  There are many great cast bullets available on the retail market with Beartooth Bullets being an excellent example.  Those who cast their own have even more options.

I know lots of folks want to have an infinite number of bullets and loads to choose from.  To each his own.  From a hunting standpoint I have found that the Hornady 265 gr. bullet in factory ammo or my own handloads has served me well on antelope, deer and elk.

My shooting interest is hunting, not reloading or tinkering.  One effective load that I have used enough to have complete confidence in is my goal for every rifle I own.  One load per rifle:  use it, know it, trust it.  In the .444 Marlin that load is the 265 gr. Hornady FN Interlock.

The result in 2007 from 51 paces:

[BBF]

I may be mistaken in the opinion that Remington no longer loads the 265 gr. Hornady and went back to the 240 gr only.

Hornady loads the new Leverevolution stuff and the 265 gr bullet which I found to be an excellent choice.
I had a 444 Marlin with a shortened barrel to 19 1/2 inch and should have never ever sold it. Had this rifle remained in my possesion I would not have bought a 45-70 and that is not a critique on that cartridge. Other then Postell type shooting events, the 444 does just about everyhing the 45-70 does without going to handloads or expensive custom stuff.

Do you re load for the 44 Rem?  You might be able to use the same bullets.

[Mikey]

I know I still have some of my earlier 265 gn loads around and I loaded these at least 2 decades before Hornady came up with their 'Light Magnum' concept, and they still shoot to where they should. 

I'm having lots more fun dialing in some heavy 300 and 330 gn 'Bacon Makers' for a December Hog hunt.   

45-70:  strange thing about the Marlin people....they overbore their rifle barrels for some strange reason.  Don't know why, but my Marlin barrels, including two on my Winchester 94AEs, mic out at either .431 or .432 inches.  My revolvers shoot 429 diameter jacketed and .430 dia cast equally well - at least with my shooting, but the rifle bbls are a bit overbore.  I think it would be a lucky feller who found hisself a Marlin in 44 Mag or 444 that accurately handled .429/.430 cast.  With the 45-70 there is no such problem as Marlin seems to be pretty much the only game in town with the 45-70 and there is no corresponding similar pistol cartridges. 


WyoStillhunter: "In the case of the .444 Marlin..There are many great cast bullets available on the retail market with Beartooth Bullets being an excellent example"..  Absolutely. 


SharonAnne:  Absolutely correct.  I know I have said this before but folk have a tendency to fergit how so ever, Cor-Bon also lists 2 loadings at that energy level and advertises that their heavy load, a 300 grainer, has taken the African big five. 

Lots of folk make the mistake of comparing the 444 and the 45-70, and I don't really know why unless it is one of those 'mine is bigger than yours' notions.  Both calibers are effective and both do the job.  Both have overlapping capabilities, as do the 308 and the 06, 260 and 6.5 Swede, so maybe that is where the 'compariosn' conflicts come into play. 

Me, I just like the sound of the Triple 4.  Mikey.

[BBF]

Mikey:
 I never measured the bore in my 444. That thought to do this never even occured to me. I can't even remember using factory fodder which would have been Rem 240's at that time. Once I found the Hdy 265's that is all I ever used with IMR 4198 doing the pushing.

[WyoStillhunter]

Go to the Beartooth Bullet site and read these articles about optimizing the .444 with cast bullets.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/19

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/44

The bottom line is that you should slug the bore and if you don't your best bet is to buy .432 bullets.  They will probably work just fine without the leading problems of bullets that are underbore.

[Lloyd Smale]

I love the 444 it is a wonderful round for hunting. I kicks alot less then a 4570 and with top end handloads you arent going to see a differnce in killing power between the two on any animal in North America. I had two marilin outfitters and folishly sold one of them. I wouldnt part with the other for any reason. It will shoot 330 grain lfns into groups at a 100 yards that would make alot of bolt shooters jealous.

[bearmgc]

I had both guide guns , 45-70 and 444Marlin. I kept the 444Marlin, and love this cartridge for deer and elk. I use the Hornady Light Mags for elk and the Georgia Arms 270gr SP for deer. I still have tons of the old Rem 240gr that I use just to plink and generally sight in/foul a clean barrel. Then progress to the Hrnady or GA loads. I have nothing against the 45-70 except that it seems to have more recoil to me.

[saltydog]

+1 on the 44 MAG - it will do everything you describe and is a joy to shoot compared to the others.

[bfpgw]

I'm a 45-70 lover but the 444 is a good round and the Marlin makes a good pipe to push it from.  Few factory selections shouldn't matter.  For about the price of a few boxes of good factory ammo you can be reloading the 444 in any flavor you like.  I'm not sure why you would want a lot of factory selections anyway.  There's only one rifle still made for that round and few were ever made to use it.  They are all levers and shoot them well.  If not, we're back to the handloading subject again.

[dpe.ahoy]

I've got a 444P that won't be sold as long as I'm around.  Got a 45-70 again now to, had one in a Marlin that just kicked the stuffing out of me, had a cresent but plate on it so I couldn't even put a pad on it.  Sold it and just in the last year got a single shot 45-70 that doesn't hurt so much, but just prefer the 444.  And like Mikey said, I like the sound of the Triple 4, and 444.  DP

[mannyrock]

    From what I have seen, if you like to re-load, shoot from the bench, and fool around with lots of combinations of bullet weights, power charges, bullet types, velocities, etc., then you would probably prefer the .45-70.

    If you don't like to reload, but instead just like to sight in and hunt, then the .444 Marlin is the way to go.  There are three or four very good factory loads offered, for virtually any big game you would want to shoot in North America or otherwise.  And, since you would only be shooting maybe 2 boxes a year, then you would be very happy with it.  The .444 Marlins are very popular with people who are pure hunters. 

   Arguing about things like whether a hot loaded .45-70 would be better than hot loaded .444 on a Cape Buffalo is a pretty silly waste of time.

   One of my pet peeves is that almost everyone on gun boards assumes that everyone reloads and loves to reload.   News Flash:  The large majority of big game hunters in America don't reload and don't want to reload.  :-)    (Frankly, it gives me a huge migraine.)

Regards, Mannyrock

[Lloyd Smale]

guess a guy could spend the time he uses to load and cast to play golf or go shopping with the wife

[mannyrock]

 
  Or better yet, . . . take a nap!  :-)

[Keith L]

guess a guy could spend the time he uses to load and cast to play golf or go shopping with the wife

Anything would be better than playing golf imho.

[dpe.ahoy]

AMEN!   DP

[lefteye]

I have a Winchester Big Bore 94 in .444 and am thrilled with the accuracy of the Hornady ammo. I got groups under an inch at 100 yards. I shot one deer with it in New York this season. I think my BLR .308 will be gathering dust.

[Mikey]

lefteye - all my Winchester Big Bores in 444 group under an inch at 100, whether with factory ammo or my handloads, and I believe I have found a way to combine shooting and golfing - use your 444 for practice on golf balls.  It is a blast, or more accurately, a literal expolsion of rubber bands...........

I can tell you that if you nick the golf ball with a soft nose slug you will put enough 'english' (spin) on it to send it into the next county.  If you nick one with a flat nose slug it takes off like a shot.  If you hit it dead on you can see the result, in motion, from 100 yds off. 

Of course you can also try this with small balloons when it is breezy and leave less of a mess, but golf balls are fun....... Mikey.

[SharonAnne]

gives a whole new meaning to 'shooting a round of golf'

[Mikey]

"gives a whole new meaning to 'shooting a round of golf".  HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  Yep, sure does. 

[Blowtorch53]

Hi DC,

I suppose the .444 Marlin is on a breathing machine.  It is a very good round but it is not overly popular now.  Mine is very accurate and it is very powerful with handloads or in custom loads from a commercial reloader like Buffalo Bore.  www.buffalobore.com  When they say "strictly business," they mean it.

If I were going to recommend only one caliber to you it would be the .45-70.  It is much more versatile than the .444 and it is very accurate.  You can use light loads for deer and stuff and powerhose loads for big stuff.  People shoot elephants with the .45-70 and the proper loads and bullets.  Your shoulder will suffer (or maybe your eye from the scope cut!) with the heavy .45-70 loads in a Marlin when you're all hunkered over at the range.  Both are great calibers.  I have both and love both, but I believe the .45-70 would be better for you.

IMHO

BT53

[Blowtorch53]

DC,

Here's my .444 with my Sika deer.  I am the fat guy on the left!



Let's see if this works.

BT53

[Redhawk1]

I don't know why there are not more offerings for the 444 Marlin, it is a great round. But most of the guys I know that have them including myself, reload for it.

A 300 gr. hard cast gas wide flat nose checked bullet will work on "just about" anything in the lower 48 and Alaska.


The main reason for the poor following of the 444 marlin is because of the 45-70. Much more versatile in my opinion.

I own both. 

[Redtail1949]

I own a 444 marlin and 45.70 marlin and love them both.

I bought the 444 when it first came out for the express use of it for black bear behind dogs and over bait. I never had it fail me and it is a killer with the 265 grain load. The new hornady loads with the pointed tips will make a great rifle even better.

The same goes for the 45.70 I purchased one year after the 444, a great rifle and great killer and it is a more versatile caliber simply because of the bullet weights available.

I hunted bear with one of the greatest bear hunters ever, his name was Dee DeMoss and he told me to get rid of the 30.06 and get a lever gun, with peep sites, in 358 45.70 or 444. That they consistantly killed better than any other rifles on the bears.

As most shots were less than 25 yards it would take a rifle that would not blow the bullets up with extreme velocity at short range. It would also require one that would break lots of bone and penetrate deep through very tough muscle.

Both the 444 with 265 grain bullets and the 45.70 with the old 405 grain trapdoor load and the 350 round nose handloaded will do just that.

I believe that with the advent of the Hornady Pionted bullets and their specific powders will keep both guns around for a long long time.