Author Topic: ? for experienced cast shooters... (Read 2633 times)

myronman3 · « **on:** July 27, 2003, 01:13:04 PM »

i am trying to get a cast load for deer. i am using 310 grain hardcast bullets. i was gunning for 1000 fps, chrono-ed today and they clocked at 874 fps. will these be sufficient, or should i load up to my original target velocity?

wyote · « **Reply #1 on:** July 27, 2003, 02:28:36 PM »

What caliber and what gun are you shooting?

I shot a 310 grain for awhile in my Ruger 45 colt and it chrono'd at around 1300

myronman3 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 27, 2003, 05:21:38 PM »

oops! :oops: super blackhawk hunter 44 mag.

Tony D · « **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2003, 04:33:28 AM »

Number one - how accurate were these bullets shooting at 874 fps? You definitely have enough power to take down a deer with this load, but what distances do you intend it for? If your shots will be no more than 50 yards, you're golden. If you need more range, you might want to step it up a bit.

wyote · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2003, 09:32:19 AM »

Why don't you run them on up to 1300 to 1400 fps? Just curious.

kciH · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2003, 02:02:50 PM »

Myronman3,
I would keep working with your loading until you get into the 1000-1100 fps range with that bullet. Will 874 do it? Probably, but why take the chance. The main thing with a big cast bullet is to have a bullet with a large flat meplat. Leaved the pointy bullets for long range silhouette shooting, which is what they are made for. You want to have enough velocity to ensure you are going to get complete penetration, even if a heavy bone is encountered. This is where that extra velocity will ensure performance. I don't see the need to bump the velocity up beyond that unless you want to shoot at ranges out to 100yds if you've got a scope on that hangun. If you want to go to 100yds, you should load them pretty near full steam to keep the trajectory flat and the remaining energy as high as you can. Those big flat nosed bullets that kill well also fly like a brick, so you've got to get the velocity up near the top for extended ranges.

myronman3 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2003, 04:48:49 PM »

i dicked around with em for a few minutes today and got 941 fps. a little more to go...
the reason i dont go full steam is that i want something i can shoot for extended sessions at the range and still use for hunting. i believe in practicing with what you are going to use. and i want to make sure i hit with it. all the power in the world dont do jack if you miss. so a tad more velocity and i am home free. i will keep you posted.

Duffy · « **Reply #7 on:** August 02, 2003, 09:08:05 PM »

How large is the meplat on the bullet you are using? There is a formula for figuring out how much vel is needed for complete penetration, and that's what you want. Generally the larger the meplat the higher the vel needed and the larger the hole. Is better to err on the high side.

Rod WMG · « **Reply #8 on:** August 03, 2003, 06:45:32 AM »

Hi, I figgered this was a good thread to get my feet wet with.

I don't think you mentioned your powder, but with a powder like Win. 296/H-110 it should be easy (and desireable) to reach the 1,000 fps goal.

I can relate to your aim of trying to find something you can shoot for awhile. I abandoned one 300 gr. SWC/H-110 load in my Smith Mtn. Gun because six rounds were definitely all I wanted. In other sixguns, like a 6" Smith, it was much more tolerable.

Being able to practice enough to get really good is important, as your posts indicate.

myronman3 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 03, 2003, 10:14:25 AM »

it has a BIG meplat, it is the lee 310 grain round nose flat point gas check (although i am shooting them without gas checks). i am using unique powder and i am currently using 8.2 grains, i am going to use 8.5 for my next loading and that should put me very near 1000 fps. i took the ones i loaded @ 874fps and they penatrated a six inch hardwood tree with ease.

HR2D2 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 06, 2003, 09:52:55 AM »

I cast those Lee bullets, they are great. I am supprised by your choice of Unique though. The best powders for this heavy bullet are H110, W296 or Alliant 2400. They should give you lower working pressures and higer velocity at the top end. This is not a ding on Unique, I shoot a lot of Unique in my pistol loads, but for top velocity and punch it is not my top choice. Also you may want to gas check these bullets. I recommend the Hornady GCs as they crimp on.

Graybeard · « **Reply #11 on:** August 06, 2003, 11:02:43 AM »

But remember his goal. He is striving for a 1000 fps load. Not a max velocity load. H110/W296 are not for use in reduced loads. Now H2400 does wonders even reduced way below book minimums for me and several others I know who've tried it. AM I RECOMMENDING YOU TRY THAT? NOPE! :eek:

GB

myronman3 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 06, 2003, 11:18:59 AM »

yeah i could use some of those other powders, but like g.b. pointed out, that aint my goal. i want a practice round that i can hunt with.

HR2D2 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 06, 2003, 11:32:25 AM »

OK you have beaten me into submission, the Unique will work. Just mentioning alternatives. :oops:

kciH · « **Reply #14 on:** August 06, 2003, 11:56:40 AM »

When you're done burning up your Unique, try a can of AA#7. I've had great results with it using lead bullets at less than magnum speeds.

myronman3 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 06, 2003, 02:05:53 PM »

hey kcih, how that stuff burn? the unique i have is the new "clean burning" stuff, so they claim. maybe clean-er burning, but by no means a clean burner. but it is a versital powder and i have it on hand usually. i guess it aint bad; it helps motivate me to keep cleaning the guns.

kciH · « **Reply #16 on:** August 06, 2003, 03:22:46 PM »

Myronman,
it burns pretty clean and has proven to be very uniform, with the velocity levels you are pursuing I think it would be ideal. It is not the cleanest powder, but it's pretty darn clean.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #17 on:** August 08, 2003, 05:36:10 AM »

Hey there shooters,

Sure don't want to get cross ways with anyone, but with a good gun sure don't see any need/reason to take it for a Sunday drive when it is made for the race track.

Also, if you heavy hand gun shooters haven't tried AA #9 you are missing a good one!

As per my experience, the only thing that needs to be watched out for with the heavy bullets IN THE BLACKHAWK is the fact that the cylinder pin and the sliding keeper can give some trouble because of the recoil. THERE ARE AFTER MARKET PIECES MADE TO SOLVE THIS SITUATION.

I presently shoot a REDHAWK - 5 1/2" and it just takes a lickin and keeps on tickin. 19gr. of AA#9 sends the 310LBT over the Chrony in the 1200fps range.

Still have a Lyman "reject" mold that shot good. the meplat was not as big as the LBT I am presently using however. The mold is listed at 325gr., however it is very close to 350 with the gas check and lube. Guess size is why it was on the reject list. Anyway, in the Blackhawk Hunter I used to have the Lyman shot me some 100yd. groups with a 2X Leupold scope that were beyond belief for their small size. Had two (2) witnesses to the thing shooting groups of under 2".

But, I think all and all the Redhawk is a tougher gun and with its weight it really tames the recoil.

Also, would be very carful with after market grips on the Blackhawk! The grip on a standard Blackhawk ALLOWS it to rotate in the hand during recoil. If you use the rubber grips, you loose this action and the total recoil must be taken in the hand and arm. I once hurt my hand with the rubber after market grips and had to lay off shooting for a couple of months. Deep bruise I guess. Nothing ever showed up on the surface but the pain sure kept me away from the pistol for awhile. Soooooo, I now just let er roll in the hand and have no more problems.

As to the cast bullets, use wheel weights, water quench them as they come from the mold. K E E P !!!!!!!!!! THE WATER AWAY FROM THE MELTED LEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then as has been said, use the gas checks and let her rip.

When you look at the minimums some folk say are needed for good killing effect on game, most true pistol rounds fall far short so why use a questionable load when the taking of game is the goal.

A tin can isn't likely to give much of a fight or suffer much with a lesser round/bad hit, so save the light loads for the cans and shoot lots of them. BUT when it comes to game give it your best shot/load.

Keep em coming! :wink:

Duffy · « **Reply #18 on:** August 08, 2003, 07:13:29 PM »

Excellent reply Darrell,
My hunting load is a 320g LBT LFN @ 1400. What I use for plinking is a 208g Lee wadcutter @ 1100. It gives enough bite to let you know that it's still a magnum but you can shoot them all day and pretty much in a very small group at that.
Even the heavy hunting loads arent that bad.
I have never been able to get a bullet that was designed for a gas check to shoot worth a hoot without one. Same goes for bevel base bullets. A sharp square bottom always has worked best for me.

jhalcott · « **Reply #19 on:** August 10, 2003, 04:35:27 PM »

I was thinking much the same thing! I had a great load using a gas checked bullet that went into patterns when I tried not using the checks. I also had accuracy problems when the sprue was not cut cleanly, leaving little bumps in the gas checks.This experiment showed where those fliers came from. At least some of them any way :oops: jh

myronman3 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 10, 2003, 05:21:38 PM »

to my way of thinking a lot of the potential is lost with handguns with the mentality that the caliber must be loaded to max to be effective. i have read post after post advising folks to start with a 22. i say, shoot what you intend to use. a 44 mag with the right reduced load is about as easy as a 22. loaded up, one can do various things depending on where they go. a load doesnt have to be at max to be effective. there is no shortage on full house loads; there is however one of reduced loads that are still effective, and that is a shame.
part of the reason i got a 44 is more versatility with less than full loads. if i want to burn barns, ill use the casull.

kciH · « **Reply #21 on:** August 10, 2003, 05:42:53 PM »

myronman,
I agree with your ideas on hangun loadings. I shoot alot of reduced loads in my handguns, I shoot a lot of full power stuff when I aiming at things 100yds or so away also. The one thing I will say is that using a gas check shanked bullet without gas checks is asking for leading and poor accuracy, reduced loads or otherwise. I've done this before with some .357 bullets, and it caused me grief. If your bullets are sized to your bore, or bigger, it won't be as big a problem as it potentially could be. The empty shank on the gas check acts as a flame funnel, so to speak, to help the gas work at the edges of the bullet. This also helps to prevent obturation with lower pressure loads. If the bullet is undersize, and of a harder alloy with reduced pressure, it's an A-1 recipe for flame cutting of the bullet and the associated problems that go with it like leading and poor accuracy. If you've slugged your barrel and chamber throats and you size to it, or better yet, .001 over that size you should be OK. Just a heads up on some potential problems you could cause yourself.

myronman3 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 10, 2003, 06:07:38 PM »

leading is almost non-existant and accuracy is as good as i get with jacketed noslers (better than i can hold). but good information just the same. i was figuring on just using gas checks, but my pops said to try it without. i did, it worked, and we figured good enough. i do intend to use gas checks if i load these bullets hot.

Duffy · « **Reply #23 on:** August 10, 2003, 06:23:29 PM »

Myronman,

That is exactly why I mentioned the 208 Lee Wadcutter. It takes up lots of case room so you don't have to burn up a lot of powder but it can still be zipped up so that you don't get lazy and soft. I use 8.3 grains of IMR 7625 and that nets about 1100fps. With 8.0 grains of 231 it's about the same. Accuracy is exellent and that full sized bullet "whacks" pretty hard even at lower vel. It's accurate out to about 50 yards too. I havent tried to see how low they will go but I'm thinking about 5 grains of 700X would get you in the 700-800fps ball park and would be a very clean load. I too like to shoot plinkers. It is too bad that more mold maker don't offer a wadcutter for the larger bores, 44, 45 colt ect.
I know LBT makes one and have been giving it a thought for the 45.
If you would like some of the 208's to try let me know.
Ryan

myronman3 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 11, 2003, 03:15:41 AM »

thanks for the offer, very generous of you. but i like using BIG lead bullets. i figure, with lead, slower equals less leading. and if you are going slower, make up for slower velocities with a heavy bullet. i went with the lee 310 gr because that is the heaviest bullet mold i could find. i had someone make me some and tried them and liked them before i bought a mold for it.
another factor is that i am trying to do this as cheaply as possible. my budget is limited, so i am trying to maximize the bag per buck. less powder per round equals more shots per pound of powder. even saving on gas checks (as long as i am gettting good results) is money saved. i have recently aquired a good steady source for lead and a bullet mold so my expenses for bullets should be over.
reduced recoil helps me to be even more accurate. knowing i can thread a needle is priceless. and as far as killing with them, folks with alot more experience than me seem to think max loads are not needed to kill a 200 lb deer.
all said and done, i appreciate everyones input as no-one has all the right answers and everyone has had their own experiences. access to that knowlege is what i am after and i continue to get varying opinions and useful information. :grin:

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #25 on:** August 11, 2003, 08:39:01 AM »

Hello again all,

Didn't wish to imply that I don't shoot reduced power loads, as I do.

The .357 has taken care of a lot of them. 2.5grs. Bullsye behind a semi wad cutter from a Lyman mold. lots of fun and Cheap to shoot.

Also run some reduced loads through the 44 BUT NEVER when hunting. If I wanted something lighter to hunt with then why pack the big iron to start with. May as will go with the 44 special or 41mag etc. Nope, when the 44 and I go hunting I want and expect it to rock when the hammer falls.

As to the leading and or grouping problems --- Have you folk all checked your handguns for THREAD CHOKE?

??/

No kidding, first read about it in some of VERAL SMITH'S (LBT) writtings. It is measurable, and I would guess evident in most if not all revolvers.

It occurs when the barrel is tightened in the frame and the point is -- WHEN YOUR BULLET IS FORCED THROUGH THE THREAD CHOKE IT WILL NEVER AGAIN BE A GOOD FIT FOR THE REST OF THE BARREL!

Firelapping is Veral's cure for the problem.

The way this is checked is by pushing a soft slug part way into the muzzle of the handgun, then removing it and pushng another slug all the way through the barrel. Then measure the difference and this is the amount of thread choke in your firearm.

Veral made some real handy "push through" slugs at one time. Don't know if they are available again or not.

Enjoy the posts!

Keep em coming! :wink:

Duffy · « **Reply #26 on:** August 11, 2003, 07:00:58 PM »

Yep, very familiar with thread restriction. My 44 wasnt near as bad as some and alot better than the 454. Think Ruger has a 500lb gorilla putting 454 barells on. It measures .4525 at the thread line and I'm guessing .453+ in the middle and .452 at the muzzle. Not very good for accuracy but at least the muzzle end is a bit tighter to slap it back into shape. I have lapped it and straightend it out a bit but theres other things that need addressing on it before I go any further.

kciH · « **Reply #27 on:** August 11, 2003, 07:52:20 PM »

If you guys are concerned with "thread choking" buy a Dan Wesson. The barrel turns in with your fingers. I have a .357 and a 32-20, the problem doesn't exist with these revolvers.

Duffy · « **Reply #28 on:** August 11, 2003, 10:30:43 PM »

They still have it, just to a lesser degree and it's at both ends.

340wby · « **Reply #29 on:** August 13, 2003, 07:01:09 AM »

I use that lee 310 grain bullet and a VERY similar 300 grain NEI design cast bullet in both my 445 dan wesson super mag and S&W 29 both with 10" barrels I use just under the max loads listed of H110 and AA1680 , as in almost all hunting, YOUR shot placement is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, BUT you will not have the slightest problem on deer or hogs with either handgun within 100 yards if you can shoot! the bullets zip thru from any angle, the game runs a short distance , you follow a short blood trail,and you take a few pictures, its that simple!
I plan I trying the 445 MAG/10" dan wesson pistol on ELK the next time I get out to hunt colorado!