Author Topic: "Blow-by", Black Powder and 45 Colt (Read 2554 times)

ButlerFord45 · « **on:** July 26, 2003, 01:45:06 PM »

Today's my birthday, and my daughter gave me the afternoon off.

Thank you, Sweetie.

I'm having a one man party, I'm detail cleaning my cowboy guns. While at it, I found something that has been chewed around the fires since I became been intrested in the sport.
"If you're gonna shoot black powder, you need one of the bottle neck cartridges.", or "45's have enough blow-by that they'll lock up your rifle."
Horse Feathers!!
I lucked into a '66 Uberti that seems to shoot anybodys cartridges to the same point of impact at 100'. I really enjoy this old thing and use it for almost everything, including cowboy action shooting. Now granted, I'm not one of the high volume shooters, but this rifle still goes through 1500 to 2000 rounds a year, and the only smokless that goes through it is when I take a guest shooting. The rest is all black powder.
While I had it apart, I took a good look at the bolt and the elevator, the bolt was clean as a whistle. The elevator was blacker than a coal miners....fingers, but it was just discoloration, no build up of any kind. After a good scrubbing with a stiff nylon brush and solvent, it looked the same, black but no build up. A few minutes with Brasso and the discoloration was gone. Not too bad since it's last polishing was in late winter of LAST year.
Those "OLD PROS" almost had me convinced that I was going to have to get a different rifle if I wanted to shoot black powder, but I thought I'd just give it a try before starting the search for another caliber. I'm glad I did, I like that extra 55 grains of lead! It has become my deer rifle, the one I use to dedog the farm when the drop-offs get numerous enough to pack, ground hog grinder, and down cow dispatcher.
When my "city" kids and grand kid come to visit, they always want to take it out and shoot. It makes a big boom, lots of smoke, just enough recoil to let you know that you have shot a "real" rifle, and they can usually hit what they are aiming at.
I have found that there is a "trick" to 45's and black powder that one of our more knowledgable moderators has named "a balanced load". It is really pretty simple: a case full of powder, a heavy bullet and a generous crimp. The same way it was made 130 years ago.
In summary, does a 45 have blow-by? Yes. A significant amount? Not if you go ahead and load it up the way it was designed.
So get yourself a pound of powder, some 250/255 grain bullets and add a new dimension to cowboy shooting!

J.W.Neely · « **Reply #1 on:** July 26, 2003, 03:30:10 PM »

Yeap, I wish I had originally gone with 44-40 with my pistols and rifle, but I didn't, and I ain't going to ( don't have the money) retool , new brass, molds, dies....

So I have to make the best of being a sootlord with a 45. ( life is tuff)

But here is what I have gone to doing........

I shoot a Uberti 66 in 45 with Goex and sometimes Elephant.
To help the blowback I have gone to NOT SIZING my brass.
It works great, no feeding problems and the soot has been cut way back.
I prime, charge, ( don't even bell), seat the 255gr slug over about 30 grs of FFG, and finish off with a crimp with the Lee die, (I had to adjust the seating die not to crimp).
Hey, it really helped, I mean my 66 use to look like a locomotive puffing smoke out the stack.
I still take it apart for a good bath.
Good shooting!

107ch · « **Reply #2 on:** July 27, 2003, 03:12:50 AM »

I've noticed that the blow-by isn't so bad either. I think it may have something to do with the .454 bullet instead of the more readily available .452. I think it seals in the chamber a little better, not to mention the softer PRS wheelweight bullets I am casting. By the way, Happy Birthday!
Dennis

Charlie Detroit · « **Reply #3 on:** July 27, 2003, 04:32:23 AM »

Quote from: FFG

I shoot a Uberti 66 in 45 with Goex and sometimes Elephant.
To help the blowback I have gone to NOT SIZING my brass.
It works great, no feeding problems and the soot has been cut way back.
I prime, charge, ( don't even bell), seat the 255gr slug over about 30 grs of FFG, and finish off with a crimp with the Lee die, (I had to adjust the seating die not to crimp).
Hey, it really helped, I mean my 66 use to look like a locomotive puffing smoke out the stack.
I still take it apart for a good bath.
Good shooting!

I think that the only reason you can get away with not resizing your brass in a lever action is that the BP doesn't hit it so hard and so hot when it goes off, the way smokeless does. Also, your chamber may be a touch big, especially at the head end, so you can push an oversized case in. Buy I'm gonna try it in mine...sounds real good to me.

Mason Stillwell · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2003, 04:40:05 AM »

Been shooting bp in a 66 and a 73 and a marlin all in 45 colt.

What works for me is Neck size to 454 a 250 gr 454 size bullet and LOTS of BP.

When the cases are laying on the ground I cannot tell them from the smokeless cases(cept for the light load smokeless and they have lots of blowback).

So I pay no attention to the old hands when they say ONE CANNOT SHOOT BP IN 45 TO MUCH BLOWBACK. I say HORSE FEATHERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hope this helps

Mason

J.W.Neely · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2003, 01:28:25 PM »

That's what I'm talkin about!

Pigeonroost Slim · « **Reply #6 on:** July 29, 2003, 03:42:25 AM »

Well; my perspective is a bit different.

When I first started with .45 Colt in lever guns, blow back WAS a DEFINITE problem. I am left handed and the blowback coming out of the Kings gate of my Marlin actually set my shirt sleeve on fire! I'm talking flames here! I was shooting a practice load of 7.2gr Unique under a 250gr Lee .452-255-RF (pills mic'd out in .453 of WW + 2% extra tin alloy)

Black powder loads were just as bad, no worse, and a bit dirtier to deal with in the action. I reset my decapper/sizer die to only size that portion of the case occupied by the boolit. I replaced the standared decapper pin with aLee Universal pin that was longer and still functioned normally in the raised die. I crimped with thr Lee Carbide Factory Crimp which also supposedly final sized the cartriges to at least maximum factory specs (in truth the die's sizing feature seem to do nothing at all. The same rounds fit my Rugers and Marlins interchangibly -- but would not chamber in my Bond or AWA handguns -- no biggie. Blowback was greatly reduced!

Then I desigend the PRS boolit and with the same set-up blowback was all but eliminated. Then Mason told me about the RCBS Cowboy Die's internal sizing featuredesigned for cast lead boolits of either .452 or .454 and with that I have NO, NADA, NONE, blowback and I don't even do the neck size thng anymore. I shoot practice filler loads of BP/grits and full house real BP; my son still shoots the heathern Unique at the same 7.gr; all with the PRS boolit. NO blowback at all. The only grime in the receiver is what gets in there when cycling. The cases from the Ruger are also clean on the outside. The blow back blues can be whipped

prs

Mason Stillwell · « **Reply #7 on:** July 29, 2003, 04:52:09 AM »

Yep PRS I guess I said that a little wrong. When I was using low pressure loads I did get blowback in my 45's. I soon learned the evil in my ways and went to a different size die and bullet weight.

The point I was trying to make is that One can load without blowback even though a lot of the old timers say it is impossable(spelling?)!!!!!!

Mason(what loves the 45)Stillwell :wink:

howdy doody · « **Reply #8 on:** July 29, 2003, 04:05:17 PM »

I only get blow by in my rifle if I use nickle cases. The brass ones blow outward enough to prevent lowback and my carrier and all stay clean as can be. I only shoot full cases of BP also and I had noticed with a reduced charge and creme of wheat that I had a bunch of blowby. I use a Lee factory crimp die too. So, I am not concerned what of my combination there works, but it does and I seldom have to clean my rifle other than the barrel. :-)

BTW Butler Ford, HAPPY BIRTHDAY

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2003, 09:18:30 PM »

Several of you have discovered what I've known for a long time! "necksize" that .45 brass. It's what I've always done and I have almost no blowback at all in my 92 Rossi. In fact when you look at my loaded rounds, they almost look like a bottlenecked cartridge! And they fitt in my Rifle and my Remmies too, albiet I do need to push them into the chambers of the Remmies, instead of jist droppin them in...no big deal though!

"necksize the brass, pour in as much black powder as ya 'cn stuff in there, use a heavy slug, 'n a hard crimp! Yer ready ta go!

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2003, 12:24:52 AM »

My empties are huge compared to sized brass so I've never even considered neck sizing. After reading ya'll comments, 'specially Cut's about looking like a bottleneck, I'm gonna try a few this weekend to see if they cycle.

Ya know, we might not need to let this information out, if we remove the "dirty" from black powder, everybody's gonna wanna use it. Course I'll still be in last place but there would be so many more names above me.

1860 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 31, 2003, 01:48:59 AM »

I never had blowback in any of my .45s, rifle or pistol. That is until I started shooting .38-40s, what a difference. That little bit of crud that ended up on the recoil shield of my revolvers, always figured that was normal. It aint, I get none to speak of with the 38-40, leverguns are even better.

The size of your chamber, the resizing of your brass, the wt. of the bullets and charges used, all add or subtract to the blowback of .45s but it is there, when compared to the bottle necked cart. I've also found that the type of brass used has an effect. Starline is real thick and allows more blowback for me, Remington seems the best. None of this really matters, you still need to clean your brass and guns after BP shooting, doesn't take much longer.

1860

gunsmither · « **Reply #12 on:** August 09, 2003, 06:28:23 PM »

Annealing the case mouths of cartridges used for blackpowder greatly reduces/eliminates blowback. The annealed/softened brass case mouths expand much better at the low pressures of the One True GunPowder! Annealing also makes cases last longer when roll crimping. Safe Shooting! - "gunsmither"

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #13 on:** August 10, 2003, 03:56:17 AM »

Gunsmither,

Now why din' I think of that!??! :oops:

Fightin Creek Slim · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2003, 08:56:56 AM »

One thing that I've discovered is that in using Winchester brass which is thinner than Starline or Remington, the cartridges will tend to expand more during firing sealing the breech and preventing the blowby. Especially when shooting full house BP loads. The only time that I get blowby problems is when I shoot light smokeless loads in .45 Colt.
Howdy Joe! "Gunsmither":

Fancy running into you here. You can pretty well guess who this is by seeing my location. Using my SASS alias over here.

gunsmither · « **Reply #15 on:** August 11, 2003, 10:49:33 AM »

Gotta be MW from Spokane! Maybe we'll meet one of these days, and chew the fat, and burn some charcoal! Nice to hear from you. It finally cooled off over here; we were dying from the heat. :evil:

I should have mentioned that when annealing .45 Colt, .44 Magnum, or other pistol cases, I like to heat them to about a light brown color, instead of dull red, before quenching. I've found you don't even have to quench them if going to the lower heat. Dull red makes them too soft in my opinion; takes out all the Viagra!. :lol:

I use a variable speed drill with a spring loaded spud that fits in the primer pocket to spin the cases in a propane flame. Spinning them at slow speed gives a nice even heat all the way around the neck of the case. Safe Shooting! -"gunsmither"

Fightin Creek Slim · « **Reply #16 on:** August 11, 2003, 01:05:28 PM »

Yep that me Joe:
Good to see you.