Author Topic: NEF in .204, vertical stringing...  (Read 517 times)

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Offline TLARbb

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NEF in .204, vertical stringing...
« on: June 28, 2008, 03:50:05 AM »
This is a new gun.  Shot for the first time last week.  Things looked great at 50yds, but at 125 I am getting a fair amount of vertical stringing.  Groups at 125 yds  about 1 to 1-1/4" wide and 2-3/4 to 1/2" tall.  I've gone back and read the basics thread and it talks about 60-80 rounds after polishing the bore.  Okay, what to use to polish the bore?  I don't have much problems with shooting 60-80 rounds before it settles in; i need the trigger time anyway. 

Then it was mentioned that if it shot well without the fore end, then it needed some foreend work.  I need to find the posts regarding the foreend work.  I'll do a search here, but if you have a link to those posts, I'd appreciate it if you'd post them. 

Also, you folks that have "been here and done it", please let me know what you did to get your rifle shooting good.  I want this one to shoot decently, but it's not there out of the box.

EJ

Offline poncaguy

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Re: NEF in .204, vertical stringing...
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2008, 03:57:04 AM »
JB Bore paste I beleive is what most use...............shoot it without the forend on...........

Offline hotburn76

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Re: NEF in .204, vertical stringing...
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2008, 04:46:14 AM »
Are you shooting factory or handloads?  Mine shot the 32 grain V-Max Hornady loads great from the get go.  I had bad luck with going vertical on reloads using most bullets and put over 10x and BLC2, 4895 did not go vertical, but did not group as well.  When just about fed up tried 4198 under a V-Max and getting dime size groups pretty consistently at 100 yards now.  There is a lot of stuff in the facts page at top of the forum.  You have to read through a lot of the post but pretty sure forend is in there.

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: NEF in .204, vertical stringing...
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2008, 05:28:56 AM »
I am convinced that the fore end has more to do with getting accuracy than any other factor. The relationship between the fore end and the receiver in particular, but screw torque, fore end bedding and a couple of others. There are other things to look at too, crowns are not always perfect from the factory or can be damaged in handling. The barrel fit is critical too. If does not lock up tight every time, accuracy will suffer. This is all covered in the FAQ section and much more. Some folks are lucky and every thing is right straight out of the box, some are not and have to find the right combination that works. Good Luck and Good Shooting.
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: NEF in .204, vertical stringing...
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2008, 05:34:49 AM »
I am going to add this too- since you are vertical stringing; I would look at lock up first. 1. make sure you are getting a good lock up. 2. Make sure the latch and lug are dry. Being oily effects the relationship of the barrel and frame so the lock up is not consistent.
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: NEF in .204, vertical stringing...
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2008, 07:18:19 AM »
It is nearly always either lockup or how you are holding the front at the bench.  If you adjust the sight picture by holding down the front, pulling the forearm into the bag to get the proper aim point then you will get vertical stringing.  I have to raise and lower the butt leaving the forearm simply resting on the bags to prevent it.  Larry
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Offline NFG

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Re: NEF in .204, vertical stringing...
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2008, 07:54:27 AM »
First things first. 

Not meaning to be "preachy"...Just like you can't make a winning dragster, dirt bike, or race car by just putting on a bigger carb, your rifle is a SYSTEM and each component needs to be optimised and work with the rest to make a "winning" shooter.

Check out the Sticky's, and FAC's...they are full of information to "accurize" your NEF.

Make sure the forearm is on solid...follow the recommendations posted in the stickys.  You might have to free float, full bed, use an O ring, or a combination, and make sure you have full contact with the locking lug.  Bedding the barrel to the receiver and shimming will also increase your accuracy by a bunch.  NEF's are just as tough or tougher to get to shoot well as any other rifle, you just have to follow all the things others have done.

Forget about barrel polishing for right now...vertical stringing is usually caused by other factors...forearm, load combination, seating, how you hold and how your set the rifle on the bags or if you use a bipod, all the looseness associated with NEF's, and your shooting ability, so you need to address those factors BEFORE you mess around with barrel polishing...It might help, but for the most part trying to polish a barrel without knowing the reasons or haphazardly will only RUIN a barrel and isn't any guarantee to reducing stringing to boot...

I'm working with my 22-243 Encore right now and I can go from vertical stringing to horizontal stringing to nice round 1" group to bughole group just by changing the bullet seating, bullet brand and weight, powder or primer and using unprepped to benchrest prepped brass.  This rifle has had all the accuracy "tricks" done to it plus I installed a pillar bedding system for the forearm.  There isn't any quick fix to ANY kind of stringing unless it is only in the forearm, then sometimes it is just full bedding, full free floating, rubber O ring or a combination of them.  I wish there was an easier way to "benchrest" accuracy, but there isn't.

Start from the beginning...fix the forearm, then do some load testing...at 100 yds...50 yards doesn't mean much as the bullet hasn't settled yet, except to see if your sights are good enough to keep the bullets on target at 100 yds or beyond.  While you are doing the forearm you can fix any problems with the locking lug, bed the barrel to the receiver with steel epoxy and make sure the headspace is good.  Takes about a weeks worth of time spread over 3 weekends or so if you are a working soul.

Work on seating, powder type and amount, primer brand and your shooting ability.  Change only  one parameter at a time...i.e., increase or decrease powder by .3 at a time for this size cartridge, change seating by 0.005", etc., and fire 3 round groups until you find that "sweet' spot, then you can go to 7-10 round groups to see how they perform.   Shoot 7-10 groups then clean well and I recommend WipeOut for a thourough cleaning at that time, and always clean between powder changes.  Shoot groups of ONE parameter change at a time so you have a record of the group change with the parameter change and not a bunch of mixed messes you can't make any kind of assessment with.  Always fire a 3 round control group after you fire a 3 round fouling group and keep the fouling group so you know where the bullets are going from a cold barrel.

AFTER these things are done you have the basis for determining an accurate load.  Benchrest prep the ammo then be sure the rifle is set up on the bags right.  THEN AND ONLY THEN will you be able to determine and correct "stringing".

GOTO http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html and http://www.freewebs.com/precisionrifle/accuracyarticles.htm, and visit some of the long range shooting forums, they are chucked full on "insider" information on how to get a rifle and ammo to shoot the best.


Personally, when I'm developing a load I shoot 3 round groups starting in the middle of what a reloading manual lists for the bullet and powder.  After I find a good group I fire one or two 7 rounds groups then go hunting, why waste time, money, components and range time trying to get the "perfect" load when none really exist.   I will stay with this load for a few hundred rounds as long as I'm hitting more than missing.  Once things go sour I will shoot another 7 round target to see whats going on, then futz aroud with the seating...usually going out first in 0.005" increments because the throat usually get chewed up and seating out will solve the problem quicker than futzing with power amounts.

If you don't want to do these things, spend the money to have a good gunsmith "accurize" the rifle, otherwise change ammo brands to see if one shoots better than another.  Each rifle likes a certain bullet weight, or brand.

The whole accurizing process, rifle and ammo prep, is nothing more than doing things to change the harmonics of the barrel so the bullet exits the barrel at a null node not right in the middle of a big vibration...in other words it doesn't "flip" the bullet in any direction.

All the information needed to solve your problem is available on this and other sites.  You have to realize your rifle ISN'T a benchrester and anything around 1" to 1 1/2" is about average unless you happen to get an exceptional rifle.  Tuning the rifle will get you down to the 1/2" - 3/4" range as long as the ammo and your abilities allow this and this accuracy has to be worked constantly to keep it.


Welcome to the wonderful world of NEF rifles.

Good Luck

'Njoy

Offline Tencubed

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Re: NEF in .204, vertical stringing...
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2008, 09:40:02 AM »
Good post NFG.   :) :) :)
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Offline NFG

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Re: NEF in .204, vertical stringing...
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2008, 09:52:35 AM »
Here is one example from today.

I've been working on loads for my 22-243 Encore, 1-12 twist.  Yesterday I was shooting 60 gr Hornady VMax.  I got some "good" groups but mostly vertical and horizontal stringing...one vertical group measured 3"...one on top of the other 1.5" apart.  I tried 3 different seating points and 3 different powders, 3 round groups.  This rifle is of know accuracy so what I was getting wasn't anywhere near it's potential...it just doesn't seem to like this bullet.  I also shot a 5 round group of 53 gr Hornady Match BT as a control into a nice round .400" group.  All the brass is benchrest prepped, you can read all about all that on the other sites, and much better explained.

I quit shooting when the lightning started hitting the bluff above my place, but I loaded up 3 rounds of Sierra 55 gr  SPT V's I've had for about 35 years.  I bought 1000 bullets way back then.  Don't ask me why I haven't shot them up before now, bullets have a very short life expectancy around me.  The first 3 round load was 42 gr H4350, seated 2.575" COAL, 0.015" off the lands, Win 243 necked down brass, Fed Match primers.  The second 3 rounds I increased the powder charge to 43 gr.  You can see the difference first hand...and when I say this is common to ANY rifle but moreso to break actions, the proof is in the seeing.



The first group measures 1 1/4" vertical and the second group measures right at 0.400" and is the same size as the 53 gr Hornady load at about 3900 f/s I usually use.  I haven't chronoed the 55 gr Sierra load yet but it hits about 1/2" lower than the Hornady load...sometimes that means it's faster, sometimes it doesn't mean a thing.

In any event I have two nice loads to use, but the bullet I wanted to use, the 60 VMax is refusing to cooperate so I will continue to try different powders until I run out of these bullets.  Originally I used the 60 Hornady SP bullets and the discontinued Nosler 50 SB's jacked to velocities I won't mention because you wouldn't believe me,  in a bolt gun with a 1-12 twist Douglas premium barrel and it  always hovered near the quarter inch bugholer groups.  This Encore is a rechambered 22-250 and because it is a break action I can't get anywhere near normal velocity for a 22-243 with ANY bullet...it just won't stand the strain.

Hope this gives you some insight into the nuances of playing this game and I'n not even anywhere near the nitpicyness I used to go through when I was benchresting.

'Njoy