Author Topic: Help with hornet and peep  (Read 1244 times)

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Offline henry1

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Help with hornet and peep
« on: June 16, 2008, 06:48:25 PM »
Ok, so a while back i bought a Williams Fire Sight Rifle Bead .250" Height, .250" Width Steel Blue 3/32" Fiber Optic Red and a Williams Shotgun Shorty Ramp 12 Gauge 3/8" (.815) Blue. I finally got em on my little hornet and this weekend I had it out shooting dogs and with the peep at the lowest it can go its still shooting about a foot high at 100yds. Could you all give me some suggestions or shed some knowledge on this subject? I would really appreciate it. Thanks.
Henry.
dont pee down my back and tell me its raining
if my guns were my children theyd be incredibly spoiled
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Offline Dave Weiss

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2008, 07:06:57 PM »
I had the same set-up on mine. Total height for the front sight needed to be around .800. You'll need to go with the .375 or .406. Hope that helps.

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Offline blindman

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2008, 07:10:43 PM »
Shoot from 300 yards!

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2008, 07:17:43 PM »
Buy a front sight that is higher than the one you have. That will lower the barrel in the front and make you shoot lower. It probably does not have to be much taller, probably the next tallest would work, but no more than .1". It sounds like your peep base is steel. You could lap the base some and get the rear sight a little lower. Aluminum is easier to work down, but it can be done with steel too, it just takes more time and patience. It will not take much. I can not figure exactly how much to lower it with out knowing exactly how high both sights are and how far apart they are. Once you have those figures, you can do a simple ratio to figure exactly how much to lower the rear sight or how hight the front sight has to be. I think that Brownell's has a place to figure this too some where on their site. Good Luck and Good Shooting.
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Offline henry1

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2008, 07:33:13 PM »
Thanks for the replies guys. Well i guess what would be easiest to do? Probably buy a taller front sight huh? So does that involve buying a new ramp or will i just be able to buy a taller insert? What would i use to lap the base? It is aluminum. Thanks again guys!
Henry.
dont pee down my back and tell me its raining
if my guns were my children theyd be incredibly spoiled
the mountian has got its own way, pillgram
ther's many a slip twix the cup and the lip
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Henry
hunter8734@yahoo.com
Looking for pdo

Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2008, 01:07:01 AM »
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/sight.aspx

Read at the bottom it has a formula for sight height correction...A few thousandths difference can be a few inches at 100 yards...

Offline henry1

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2008, 01:42:31 AM »
Thanks stumpjpr, soon as im off work today im gona figure the little bugger out. I will post my results so as to make sure i did it right and to see what you guys think. Thanks again for all the help. Dont know what the world would be like without ya!
Henry.
dont pee down my back and tell me its raining
if my guns were my children theyd be incredibly spoiled
the mountian has got its own way, pillgram
ther's many a slip twix the cup and the lip
Life member NAHC
Henry
hunter8734@yahoo.com
Looking for pdo

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2008, 02:25:15 AM »
I would go with a higher front sight. I think it would be much easier to do. If you can buy an insert the correct height it would be the better way to go. You would have to remove some where around 1/16" from the base to get you in the ball park. If you decide to do this, stick some wet/dry sand paper (double sided carpet tape) to the barrel some where the barrel is smaller in diameter than the where the sight base is. Measure the thickness of the paper + tape. Where you put it on the barrel at should be the diameter where the sight is should be equal to  (twice the paper/tape thickness) + (the barrel diameter where you attach it to the barrel). If your barrel is .9 where your sight is at and the paper/tape is .040 thick, then attach the paper and tape to where the barrel is .82" in diameter. This will approximate the same diameter where your sight sets so the curvature under the base will equal where it sets. You may have to shorten the screws too. Measure the thickness of the base to start with and work it back and forth over the paper/tape until you take off 1/16". You could start out with some courser paper and move to finer when you start getting close to move the project along quicker. Remount the rear sight and try it. Of course that will not work if the tapper of the barrel is a whole lot or there is a big step down in the barrel right after where the rear sight is attached.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2008, 04:43:53 AM »
Henry, use the Brownell's formula to figure out the front sight height, then get the closest Firesight insert to make it happen. The .250" insert used in the Peep and Firesights FAQs link was on a 45-70, a hornet has a much flatter trajectory, so it would need a taller sight, the Brownell's calculator link is in that same link. ;)

Tim
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Offline henry1

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2008, 09:51:28 AM »
Ok fellas, i hate numbers, so im a bit confused. I used the sight hight calculator, and they said with my rear sight (Standard williams peep, stock on B.C. 45/70) @ .206 that my front sight hight should be .435. That doesn't make any sense to me because if the front sight needs to be higher than what it is now which is .625 then it would be lower with using the calculator. I should also note that the rear sight was measured at about the lowest setting it will go. I took the measurements from the center of the slider plate. Thank you for helping me guys. I know I'm terrible with numbers. Humor me if there is something that I'm not seeing. Thanks again.
Henry.

Barrel Diameter at Rear Sight:    1.114   
Rear Sight Height:    .206
Barrel Diameter at Front Sight:   .656   
Front Sight Height:   .435
dont pee down my back and tell me its raining
if my guns were my children theyd be incredibly spoiled
the mountian has got its own way, pillgram
ther's many a slip twix the cup and the lip
Life member NAHC
Henry
hunter8734@yahoo.com
Looking for pdo

Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2008, 10:36:39 AM »
i used the formula at the bottom you need approximately a front sight that is atleast .053" taller but that would only get you dead on at the lowest setting on your rear sight...

Offline henry1

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2008, 10:45:07 AM »
I dont know, the diagram on brownells for the calculator sure looks like they measure from the barrel to the verry top of the sight. but, i could be wrong. Either way, I just want to get the right front sight and be able to shoot it and have it be right.
dont pee down my back and tell me its raining
if my guns were my children theyd be incredibly spoiled
the mountian has got its own way, pillgram
ther's many a slip twix the cup and the lip
Life member NAHC
Henry
hunter8734@yahoo.com
Looking for pdo

Offline OBXPilgrim

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2008, 12:42:06 PM »
You don't have to mess with that calculator is you don't want to, you already have enough info.

It's a ratio.

sight height change (sc) divided by sight radius (srad) equals the sight adjustment (sa) at the distance (d)

or sc/srad = sa/d.  If the sight radius is 21.750", & you were 12" high at 100 yds (which is 3600 inches)

sc/21.750 = 12/3600

3600*sc =  12*21.75  or 3600sc = 261 and then sc = .0725".  You need a front sight .0725" taller than the one you need.  I'd go with the next taller size, cause they probably won't have the exact right one.  If your sight radius is different, just recalculate it (or ask).

I've used shim stock to make adjustments under peep sight bases for friends & it's as accurate as your measurements.

Hope that helps.

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2008, 01:28:20 PM »
OBXPilgrim is correct it is a simple ratio as I mentioned above.

You are using the wrong formula. You do not have to figure the hight of your sights, just how much higher the front one needs to be. You already know the distance (100 yards or 36 X 100 = 3600 inches) and how far off you are (+12"). You need to measure the distance between the sights. Plug into the formula

Amount of Error X Sight Radius = Sight Correction Needed
Distance to Target

If you are shooting low, you would replace your front sight with a lower sight, and conversely, if you were shooting high, then you would replace your front sight with a higher sight. Add or subtract the number of thousandths needed to the actual height of your sight and you will have the correct height of the replacement sight.

Example
At 100 yards, your shot is 12" high and the distance between your front and rear sight is 19.5". (every thing in inches)

12 X 19.5 = .065"
3600

Since you are shooting high, you would need a front sight that is at least .065" taller than the one you have. I would go a little more than that to give your self more adjustment. This is assuming you have 19.5" between the sights. Recalculate if the sight radius is different. Say 18" instead of 19.5".

12 X 18 = .060"
3600
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Offline henry1

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2008, 01:46:28 PM »
Ok from the front of the base of the peep to the back of the shotgun ramp it measures 18 and 7/16''. Tell me what to buy. I trust your calculations infinite times more than i trust my own. LOL. Thanks for being so generous fellas, i appreciate it.
Henry.
dont pee down my back and tell me its raining
if my guns were my children theyd be incredibly spoiled
the mountian has got its own way, pillgram
ther's many a slip twix the cup and the lip
Life member NAHC
Henry
hunter8734@yahoo.com
Looking for pdo

Offline OBXPilgrim

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2008, 02:24:37 PM »
henry1,

Measure from the back of the aperature peep sight to the back of the front sight, not the base.  That's your actual "sight radius".

Offline henry1

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2008, 10:29:59 AM »
Oh ok! That makes it 21 and 1/4''. ;D Thanks!
dont pee down my back and tell me its raining
if my guns were my children theyd be incredibly spoiled
the mountian has got its own way, pillgram
ther's many a slip twix the cup and the lip
Life member NAHC
Henry
hunter8734@yahoo.com
Looking for pdo

Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2008, 10:59:59 AM »
That would be the .0725" but remember that was 12" high with the rear sight bottomed out and i believe the sight has .100" adjustment so it should probably be a little taller....Could someone second this opinion????

Offline OBXPilgrim

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2008, 11:30:04 AM »

sight height change (sc) divided by sight radius (srad) equals the sight adjustment (sa) at the distance (d)

or sc/srad = sa/d.  If the sight radius is 21.750", & you were 12" high at 100 yds (which is 3600 inches)

sc/21.750 = 12/3600

3600*sc =  12*21.75  or 3600sc = 261 and then sc = .0725".  You need a front sight .0725" taller than the one you need.  I'd go with the next taller size, cause they probably won't have the exact right one.  If your sight radius is different, just recalculate it (or ask).

ok, 21.250" sight radius, then 12*21.25" =3600*sc, which is "sight cchange"=.071". 

If the rear sight has .100" of adjustment, then, .100/21.25=sa/3600 or 21.25sa = 360 and then sa=16.9"  -  it will have 16.9" for an adjustment range at 100 yards.

Since a lighter bullet will typically shoot lower, and/or if you download it, it will also, I'd go for a .100"-.150" taller sight.



Offline henry1

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2008, 01:13:18 PM »
Ok so a .350'' or .400'' is what i need to get right?
dont pee down my back and tell me its raining
if my guns were my children theyd be incredibly spoiled
the mountian has got its own way, pillgram
ther's many a slip twix the cup and the lip
Life member NAHC
Henry
hunter8734@yahoo.com
Looking for pdo

Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2008, 01:16:03 AM »
I'm guessing .535..the front needs to be taller to lower impact....Don't hate us if we're wrong...lol...Thats the best i can come up with also...

sight height change (sc) divided by sight radius (srad) equals the sight adjustment (sa) at the distance (d)

or sc/srad = sa/d.  If the sight radius is 21.750", & you were 12" high at 100 yds (which is 3600 inches)

sc/21.750 = 12/3600

3600*sc =  12*21.75  or 3600sc = 261 and then sc = .0725".  You need a front sight .0725" taller than the one you need.  I'd go with the next taller size, cause they probably won't have the exact right one.  If your sight radius is different, just recalculate it (or ask).

ok, 21.250" sight radius, then 12*21.25" =3600*sc, which is "sight cchange"=.071". 

If the rear sight has .100" of adjustment, then, .100/21.25=sa/3600 or 21.25sa = 360 and then sa=16.9"  -  it will have 16.9" for an adjustment range at 100 yards.

Since a lighter bullet will typically shoot lower, and/or if you download it, it will also, I'd go for a .100"-.150" taller sight.




Offline striker525

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2008, 04:32:00 AM »
Man reading all those just gave me a headache. LOLOL I hope you can get if figured out. ;D ;D

Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2008, 05:11:47 AM »
All the instructions i believe are going the long way around...Basically all you are trying to do is to get the sights level from front to back...thats where all of that MOA stuff comes in

Offline OBXPilgrim

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2008, 11:06:31 AM »
THIS ONE: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=685600&t=11082005


I'm guessing .535..the front needs to be taller to lower impact
Don't get a .535" - that would drop your impact 27" & the 17" adjustment of your rear sight wouldn't even put you on the paper.


All the instructions i believe are going the long way around...
- If you ask Dave Weiss, he'd probably agree!!!
I had the same set-up on mine. Total height for the front sight needed to be around .800. You'll need to go with the .375 or .406. Hope that helps.
>===> Dave


...thats where all of that MOA stuff comes in
Sorry, point of impact has NOTHING to do with MOA.

Hope that all helps

Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2008, 02:10:27 AM »
MOA should it is just not the way you think....It the difference in angle between the 2 sights..if the angle on a leve plane is 2 degrees with one site and 3 degrees with the next they are going to change......and a shorter sight will raise the point of impact not lower it....because the barrel has to come higher in the front in order to line up....One way to look at it...you lower the rear to make it shoot lower which puts it on a lower plane than the front....I still assume he is only replacing the front sight...

Offline Mike Britton

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2008, 03:35:02 AM »
I want to put an FP-TK on my .30-30, but have put it off because of all the math involved. Jeez, I can't even figure out which ramp I should Buy!
I'm going to try calling Williams. This should be already figured out somwhere, .30-30 barrels are all the same, are they not?
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Offline OBXPilgrim

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2008, 07:27:29 AM »
STUMPJMPR- everything you just described in the last post involved changing the point of impact (adjusting sights).

If you want to know what kind of MOA accurracy you have - don't adjust the sights, after you start shooting for group size.


Here's a definition of MOA (Minute of Angle) from wikipedia.
Firearms
This unit is commonly found in the firearms industry and literature, particularly that concerning the accuracy of rifles. The industry tends to refer to it as minute of angle rather than minute of arc. It is popular because 1 MOA subtends approximately one inch at 100 yards, a traditional distance on target ranges. A shooter can easily readjust his rifle scope by measuring the distance in inches the bullet hole is from the desired impact point, and adjusting the scope that many MOA in the same direction. Most target scopes designed for long distances are adjustable in quarter (¼) or eighth (⅛) MOA "clicks". One eighth MOA is equal to approximately an eighth of an inch at 100 yards or one inch at 800 yards.

Calculating the physical equivalent group size equal to one minute of arc can be done using the equation: equivalent group size = tan(MOA ∕ 60)*distance. In the example previously given and substituting 3600 inches for 100 yards, tan(1 MOA ∕ 60)∙ 3600 inches = 1.0471975511966 inches.

In metric units 1 MOA at 100 meters = 2.90888208665722 centimeters.

Sometimes, a firearm's accuracy will be measured in MOA. This simply means that under ideal conditions, the gun is capable of repeatedly producing a group of shots whose center points (center-to-center) fit into a circle, the diameter of which can be subtended by that amount of arc. (E.g.: a "1 MOA rifle" should be capable, under ideal conditions, of shooting a 1-inch group at 100 yards, a "2 MOA rifle" a 2-inch group at 100 yards, etc.) Some manufacturers such as Weatherby and Cooper offer actual guarantees of real-world MOA performance.

Rifle manufacturers and gun magazines often refer to this capability as "Sub-MOA", meaning it shoots under 1 MOA. This is typically a single group of 3 to 5 shots at 100 yards, or the average of several groups. If larger samples are taken, i.e. more shots per group, then group size typically increases. [2]

Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2008, 10:23:42 AM »
He is trying to find the correct front sight height that he needs...So it is adjusting the sights....If you got 2 points on slightly different planes and you line them up, then extend it to 100 yards and then 200 yards the distance from the level plane from the first sight is going to increase the farther out you go....

Offline henry1

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2008, 11:06:02 AM »
Whew! What a can o worms! lol! Thanks for the help fellas, I am going with the .375'', when i know for sure that i can afford it. I will let you guys know how she turns out. Thank you so much for all the help!
Henry.
dont pee down my back and tell me its raining
if my guns were my children theyd be incredibly spoiled
the mountian has got its own way, pillgram
ther's many a slip twix the cup and the lip
Life member NAHC
Henry
hunter8734@yahoo.com
Looking for pdo

Offline Dave Weiss

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Re: Help with hornet and peep
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2008, 12:26:57 PM »
Henry, you can order it direct from Williams. Should cost you around $15 shipped. 1-800-530-9028

>>>===> Dave
Hunt hard, shoot fast and trust your dog.