Author Topic: How much range for deer?  (Read 5029 times)

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Offline nomosendero

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2008, 04:34:28 AM »
I've read in the gun rags of  the 1000 /1000 rule for years. I also recall that it was a breakpoint for rifle cartridges, not handguns... The main use of this "theory" was to limit the "effective " factory loaded deer cartridges to the .243  at the low end of the spectrum. Big bore Hand guns with cast bullets are a whole 'nother animal...

Very true!
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Offline SharonAnne

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2008, 05:38:50 PM »
  I don't know about this 1000/1000 business.  1000fps and 1000 ft/lbs of energy are 2 very different critters. If 1000 ft/lb is the criteria then there are very few handguns that could qualify.  Is that where the 1000fps comes in, to qualify pistols that would otherwise not make it? Some consider a hot .44 to be the Hammer of Thor, and the .30/30 to be a wimp. But, with a decent 3x scope I would still use a .30/30 at 200 yd for deer. With a .44 your trajectory would resemble a mortar.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2008, 01:57:17 AM »
I'm loading 230 gr flat point hard cast bullets in my 45 colt at 975 fps.  I had wrist surgery, and this is all i can shoot comfortably right now.

A big deer in my area is about 150 lbs.  Will this load kill a deer out to 50 yards if I put it through his shoulders or lungs?

Thanks,
TH


Yes, with no problems, and probably would work out to 75 yds, if you can do your part.  I use a 200 grn cast bullet at about that same speed and have had good luck with it.

Much more important than a few grn difference in bullet weight is being able to wait for the shot you KNOW is right, that you can be sure of taking cleanly.  So many people recommend heaver bullets for the edge in a marginal shot, but I don't take marginal shots. Ever. For any reason on live game.  Nobody should take a marginal shot on live game. We owe it to the game we hunt to have enough respect for that game to be sure of every shot we take at live game.

And by your asking about the 45 bullets, it shows you are thinking the same way about this.

Greeenriver

I don't use bigger bullets to take marginal shots, I use bigger bullets to make bigger holes. I also use the right bullet construction to get the most penetration I can get.
Big holes, lots of penetration and proper bullet placement equals dead animal, Bottom line.
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Offline BBF

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2008, 05:27:36 AM »
 I think most here would agree that a .44Rem Mag shooting a 240 gr bullet from a handgun at a deer at 50 yards would be a no brainer. That load has less then 1000 ftlb coming out of the barrel !
A FN hard cast bullet doesn't expand like a jacketed piece of lead. I think you will get all the penetration you need with a 45 cal hole to boot.
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Offline S.B.

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2008, 06:46:05 AM »
For years, I have wondered if the rules should not be altered to compensate the difference between handguns and rifles? Then again, all formulas for this type of calculation are just theory, aren't they? IE: Taylor knock down, stopping power.
Personally, I think one is better off going with givens, in the beginning of any stopping power formulas, like a hard cast 240 lead bullet at 1000-1200fps in a .44 mag. will do the job for deer size game and a 230 grain beginning in a .45 ACP at 800-900fps will work for human targets. And go from there?
Don't most arguments on this board start when bean counters insist that they can make something work by crunching the numbers, when it's outside the norm? My point is let's look at years back when gun writers insisted that the 9MM was the answer to combat handguns, the .357 is large enough for any game animals?
No one is arguing that 9MMs haven't stopped gun fights or .357s haven't taken moose. Just not the right stuff?
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2008, 07:52:17 AM »
Handgun hunting can be done with a 357 Mag to a 500 Mag. The key is staying in the affective range of the round you choose and the ability of the shooter.
Most handgun hunter I know, hunt with a handgun for short rang shooting at under 75 yards and every round from 357 Mag to 500 Mag with the right bullet construction , velocity and shot placement, will drop a deer in the 75 yard range.

There are some hand-gunners that can and do make longer shots with larger rounds such as the 454 Casull and up.

The original poser asked about a 230 gr. 45 Colt at 50 yards on a deer, yes it will work without a doubt.

I never speculate peoples loads, I have some light weight bullets (240 and 260 gr.) I consider them light, that I shoot in my S&W 460 Mag, 1900 to 1950 fps. At 200 yards I would not hesitate to shoot a deer with them loads.
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Offline kevthebassman

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2008, 01:04:34 PM »
Shot placement and bullet construction make up for a lot.  A slow round of solid construction that passes through will make a deer every bit as dead as a screaming fast expanding round.  Put a hole through the lungs and that deer isn't long for this world! 

Foot pounds is a pretty limited indicator of killing power.  A 500 grain arrow at 250 fps is pretty sorry in the ft/lbs department, but put one through the lungs of any animal, and it's only a matter of time before it's in the freezer.

Offline Greeenriver

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2008, 05:17:58 PM »
Quote
...So many people recommend heaver bullets for the edge in a marginal shot, but I don't take marginal shots. Ever. For any reason on live game.  Nobody should take a marginal shot on live game. We owe it to the game we hunt to have enough respect for that game to be sure of every shot we take at live game...

This is wonderful in theory, but in reality seldom proves out over time.  After over 40 years of deer hunting and not taking "marginal shots" I still have had deer take a step between the trigger squeeze and the bullet strike, making what would have been a perfect shot into a bad one.  Because I usually shot bullets capable of more than "perfect hit" performance I recovered those animals.  To plan for only "perfect shots" is to deny reality and could reflect on a lack of real hunting experience. 

.


It's been 39 years now since I became old enough to legally hunt deer here in Michigan, and I've missed maybe 5 of those seasons way back when I was younger and working for Uncle Sam.  When I started hunting, one deer a year was the limit, and soon after two became legal with a doe permit.  Some years I didn't get a deer, simply because I never got the "Right" shot. One that I knew was a killing shot that I could make.   Many years ago, the limit was raised to two antlered deer, with multiple antler less permits available to land owners and the general public. I availed myself of many of them and seldom have an empty freezer. I like venison a lot, and when times were bad I sometimes fed my wife and kids on venison when grocery money was short.  I have almost never taken a shot that I consider "Marginal" and never will. I, too, have had deer move after I started the shot, resulting in a less than perfect shot, but a 200 grn hard cast bullet at 900 to 1000 fps has plenty of penetration and power to completely pass through a deer even if your shot is off a little. This is not the load I've used for most of my hunting, but it is for the last several years, and is a completely ethical load, IF YOU DO YOUR PART. Any power left in the bullet after it has gone out the other side of a deer is waisted. The perfect bullet would penitrate a deer, and fall on the ground on the other side, but that's not reality, you need enough bullet to pass through even if the deer moves, or your shot is off just a bit.   

Way back, when I was about 18 or 19, I took a Marginal shot on a deer, and that took me the rest of the day to track the deer and finish it off.  Since then, I've never taken a shot at a deer that was moving faster than a slow walk, and probably 90% or more were standing still and didn't even know I was there till I shot.  I truthfuly don't know how many deer I've shot over the years, but it's way more than the number of years I've been hunting, even given that some years I don't even shoot one. Some years I just hunt with a camera, and getting the perfect shot with a camera is much harder than with a pistol or rifle.

To imply that I deny reality and have a lack of real hunting experience from a reference to not taking "Marginal" shots, not knowing me or the level of hunting and shooting experience I have, is arragont and insulting.  150 years ago, this would have resulted in an invitation to coffee and pistols at dawn, in this day and age, it simply results in a loss of all respect for anyone being that insulting and rude.

I just got home last evening from traveling nearly 1000 miles to shoot for two days for a charity shoot to bennifet St. Jude's Childrens Hospital where the 180 shooters, spouses and range staff raised over $36,500 to be donated to St. Judes, I'm tired and my back hurts and I'm done with this thread.

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Offline jwp475

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2008, 06:42:16 AM »
I'm loading 230 gr flat point hard cast bullets in my 45 colt at 975 fps.  I had wrist surgery, and this is all i can shoot comfortably right now.

A big deer in my area is about 150 lbs.  Will this load kill a deer out to 50 yards if I put it through his shoulders or lungs?

Thanks,
TH

  That load will be very effective when properly placed. I have killed Deer with the 45 ACP with less of a load than the one you have..

Offline Scott T

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2008, 04:02:24 PM »
Let me let you in on a little secret........deer don't read ballistic tables and they die pretty well when you hit them right.

This one was shot at 60 yards with a 4.5 inch .44 spl.  The load was 7.5 gr of Unique under a 250gr Keith.  Not a barn burner, but he dropped in his tracks.

 

Offline jhalcott

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2008, 06:20:17 PM »
I'm not trying to be smart Scott, but where did you get this load from? MOST of what I have found stops some what LESS than 7.5 grains of Unique in the 44Special.  I'm just curious!

Offline Mikey

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2008, 12:19:05 AM »
jhalcot:  the load Scott T used is within the parameters in my older Lyman Manual.  Max charge with Unique under the 250 gn Keith style swc is 7.9 - 8 grains (gas check dependent). 

Scott - nice buck......... and 60 yds with an open sighted 1873 is pretty darn good shootin', too.

Offline gstewart44

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2008, 05:28:42 AM »
I have taken two deer with my SW 1917 45 acp .   I will not do it again.   My uncle told me to hit the deer high in the near shoulder - it clips the spine and brings it down....but doesnt' kill them.   A follow up shot was needed to the head on both.   The first load was a 230 gr XTP at 995 fps.   penetrated 6-7 inches shattered the spine but no exit.  Distance was 17 yds.    Second load was 250 gr wide flat point at 1000 fps (load is from an old Speer manual)  This load passed through and clipped the spine.  Distance was 30 yds.   

My uncle was a meat hunter and liked this method with his .45 auto.   I prefer something a little more definitive when the barrel says "bang".    Intentional wounding to paralyze ain't my cup o tea.   
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Offline petemi

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2008, 06:00:48 AM »
Quote
...So many people recommend heaver bullets for the edge in a marginal shot, but I don't take marginal shots. Ever. For any reason on live game.  Nobody should take a marginal shot on live game. We owe it to the game we hunt to have enough respect for that game to be sure of every shot we take at live game...

This is wonderful in theory, but in reality seldom proves out over time.  After over 40 years of deer hunting and not taking "marginal shots" I still have had deer take a step between the trigger squeeze and the bullet strike, making what would have been a perfect shot into a bad one.  Because I usually shot bullets capable of more than "perfect hit" performance I recovered those animals.  To plan for only "perfect shots" is to deny reality and could reflect on a lack of real hunting experience. 

I agree 1000%.  I don't hunt with anything that won't slam dunk them where they stand.  I'm too damned old to go running around in three feet of snow looking for a wounded animal.  I firmly believe we have a responsibility to kill quickly and humanely, and that's how I like to do it.  In every forum you go to, people are always asking "Is a Red Ryder enough gun for elk at 1000 yards".  I'm sorry but I don't enjoy the infatuation with trying to kill something with the lightest possible round.
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
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Offline jwp475

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2008, 06:11:41 AM »


  Fortunately Deer don't read ballistic tables, so a 45 caliber flat point hard cast that punches a hole through them works perfectly.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2008, 06:52:23 AM »
for whats its worth in Va you need 350 ft lb to be legal to hunt deer and larger than .23 cal. in a hand gun .
A lot of deer got killed with a black powder 44-40 , at one time it was king in some places . It seems many think  Magnum's are needed to kill deer when in fact they are relatively new developments in the fire arms history most likely a advertising ploy more than anything else with the exception of a few .
I have seen many deer killed often with a single hit from a 00 or 000 buck shot that started off at 1200 fps .
So to say a 45 slug at least 3 times the weight and most likely at 60-100 yards is traveling faster than the buck shot wouldn't kill a deer as well as most other bullets is a stretch . How many deer and other critters were killed with .38 and .36 squirrel guns when America was new ?
The question should be why are we wasting powder with heavy loads when lighter loads worked for years ? not why do some want to use light loads !
Yes heavy loads do have a place . just not every one needs them !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Scott T

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2008, 02:46:27 PM »
I'm not trying to be smart Scott, but where did you get this load from? MOST of what I have found stops some what LESS than 7.5 grains of Unique in the 44Special.  I'm just curious!

Not at all.  This is a load that was favored by the late Skeeter Skelton and I use it exclusively in this revolver.

I would not use it in a Charter Arms Bulldog, but I have used it for many years and I don't think there is a better load for the .44 spl.

Best regards.

Offline kennisondan

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2008, 11:45:39 AM »
to the original poster... I would not hesitate to place my shot well and would expect complete penetration through lungs and very likely complete penetration throough both shoulders as welll... though I prefer to try to angle through one shoulder and the lung/heart area as well if there is a little quartering angle to work with.... I would probably look at a little heavier bullet really hard cast and would settle for 850 to 950 fps if that is comfortable enough for the wrist.. I am about to have wrist surgery and intend to shoot no lighter than 265 and no heavier than 300gr. and as slow as it needs to be to be comfortable.. I will likely use around eight grains of unique or a little less 7.8 is what i used to use all the time in 44 with 240s... and it was a really sweet load...
bottom line I would go with what you ask about or tinker with heavier and slower just to test it out, and not be afraid to put one through a deer at any yardage I could put them in a pie plate sized target every time... the heavy hard bullets have lots of whomp and penetrate far better than expected at far slower speeds than thought effective, and white tails die easily at the end of a double sided blood trail 44 or larger in size... just put on the glasses and ease over there to collect your deer .... it will be there.. the shoulder shot, the chest shot.... means meat on the ground as long as you mark your spot to find the first of the blood trail...JMHO... you will not be dissapointed... how long post surgery are you ? PM me with the details, I am curious about my own recovery etc.
dk

Offline Scott T

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2008, 02:30:14 AM »
And I am sorry I did not mention it before, I hope your recovery goes well and is swift.  Good luck.

Offline fowler

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2008, 06:52:58 AM »
If you look at the Linebaugh penetration test there are some pretty interesting things that come to light. A 30/06 with a factory 150gr bullet typically penetrates about 18" and 300gr 45 colt bullet at 1000fps will penetrate about 36"! Plus the 30 caliber bullet might open up to 45 caliber so the 45 colt bullet without opening still makes as big of a hole as a 06 will!

Dick Thompson killed a cow elk last fall with a 255gr Keith bullet at 950fps in a 45 colt from 168 yards and got a clean pass through the lungs ,so do you really think a whitetail would hold that bullet at any reasonable range? A 230gr bullet in the 45 colt is a little light but if it is hard cast and you shoot it well then the deer will die. Rarely do big game animals drop at the shot without shocking or hitting the central nervous system so I expect to have to follow them up at some distance. I killed a bull elk with a 300 mag that had a clean pass tough both lungs and he ran 400+ yards at full speed! But with a exit hole they are still easy to find.

I am tired of lazy inexperienced hunters expecting game to drop instantly with lung shots, it just does not happen. These are the same slobs that then assume they missed and walk away from their game animals crying they need a bigger gun! I found a freshly killed elk some time back that had been dead only minutes. I back tracked the blood trail to a midwestern hunter that was staring at his rifle in disbelief that he missed.I said maybe you didn't lets go look, he said "if a 375 H&H won't kill a elk what will?". I took him down and played dumb and found the blood trail and his elk in about 10 minutes. It had only ran 75 yards but was out of sight.

The bottom line is the 230 grain load you ask about will do fine on any deer that walks the earth. If you want more then go to a 255gr Keith and slow it down a little so the recoil is still comfortable. Bullet mass gets you penetration not speed. In the Linebaugh test he showed a 335gr LFNGC bullet at 1050fps would get 38" of penetration but pushed to 1500fps it only gained 2" of penetration! Newtons laws of physics the faster it starts the faster it stops. Good luck.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2008, 08:33:56 AM »
fowler , that last sentence got me chewed out once on this site  . But you are correct !
nice post !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2008, 06:11:53 AM »
I am confused by the "the faster it starts the faster it stops" business. Once the 1500 fps load has slowed to 1000 fps, why does it not continue to penetrate exactly the same as the load that started at 1000 fps. Once it has slowed to 1000 fps from then on it should penetrate as though it hit at 1000 fps.  Can someone please clarify this for me. As I said, I am confused by this.
SharonAnne
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2008, 06:27:02 AM »
I am confused by the "the faster it starts the faster it stops" business. Once the 1500 fps load has slowed to 1000 fps, why does it not continue to penetrate exactly the same as the load that started at 1000 fps. Once it has slowed to 1000 fps from then on it should penetrate as though it hit at 1000 fps.  Can someone please clarify this for me. As I said, I am confused by this.

SharonAnne, I am confused also with this statement.  I don't find much merit in it myself.  There is a lot more to penetration than just speed, bullet construction is also a big key in penetration. But to say the faster a bullet starts out the faster it slows down does not make since to me at all.

Newton's First Law of Motion:
I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. 

Newton's Second Law of Motion:
II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector. 

Newton's Third Law of Motion:
III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. 


Never heard of "Newtons laws of physics the faster it starts the faster it stops"
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Offline TGFOGAL

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2008, 12:22:19 PM »
Good after noon
So if 1500fps is the optimum speed, then if the bullet starts at 1700fps and the target is farther away by 200fps
will you get the same penetration?
Would this give longer shooting ranges for those who can hit at longer ranges.
I liked the article by John Ross on the S&W 500 loads. Top of page 13, 500gr at 1700fps.
http://www.john-ross.net/pdfs/maghist.pdf

Offline Mikey

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2008, 01:39:32 AM »
I'm not so sure that 'the faster it starts the faster it stops' is not dependent upon mass however, Newton's 3rd Law may have some application.  For example:  the 335 gn slug at 1500'/sec penetrates only 2" more than the same slug at 1050'/sec (is this more of the equal and opposite reaction??).  I wonder if the results would be the same with a heavier bullet???

I think that 335 gn slug at 1050'/sec may have gotten to about maximum forward energy for that weight/diameter projectile and that driving it faster won't get it to penetrate that much more.  Someone once said that you do not need to increase the speed of a heavy 44 or 444 cast slug (specifically named those two but I'm sure the same applies to 45 bores)  to get deeper penetration and I agree.  I think that at a certain velocity the slug will attain near maximum forward energy and momentum and that to try and drive it faster gets only marginal results (like the extra 2" of penetration).  I feel that at some point you can send a slug out faster than it will retain enough forward stability and momentum to either hold together or penetrate properly. 

A 20 gn 17 caliber slug at 4k'/sec may deflect off a twig, a 200 gn 44 slug at 4k'/sec may not stabilize well enough and retain sufficient forward momentum and may well deflect off a ribcage but the same slug at 1200'/sec may possess sufficient stability and forward momentum to completely penetrate the target.  This is why it is important to match the velocity of the bullet to bullet weight for optimum results. 

I think I said that right.  Mikey.

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2008, 02:30:06 AM »
I don't think your physics are sound.  A 200 grain slug at 4000 fps wouldn't even notice a ribcage (or a deer, for that matter) in it's path.  Increased velocity doesn't really have a point of diminishing returns as far as imparting energy to a projectile in a vacuum.  The limiting factors would be bullet construction and air resistance as you move up into extreme velocity.

I see what you're pushing at as far as failing to stabilize, though.  Ever wonder why the Army uses smoothbore cannons on their Abrams tank?  They shoot sabot rounds that are fin stabilized because the projectile is too long and going too fast to stabilize in a rifled bore.

Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2008, 05:11:41 AM »
The 45 colt has been around a long time....The original loadings were barely breaking 1000fps....It worked back then on 2 and 4 legged animals....I don't see why it wouldn't work now???

Offline S.B.

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2008, 05:15:22 AM »
kevthebassman, what vacuum?
STUMPJMPR, good point, nothing succeeds like success?
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2008, 07:25:02 AM »
The 45 colt has been around a long time....The original loadings were barely breaking 1000fps....It worked back then on 2 and 4 legged animals....I don't see why it wouldn't work now???

Sure the 45 Colt woll work, but there are some of use that just want more, for our own reasons.  ;D
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Offline Tom W.

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Re: How much range for deer?
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2008, 07:40:42 AM »
And as the original topic, "How much range for deer?" goes..... If their eyeballs look shiny, they're close enough.....
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