How much range for deer?

[300grJHP]

I'm loading 230 gr flat point hard cast bullets in my 45 colt at 975 fps.  I had wrist surgery, and this is all i can shoot comfortably right now.

A big deer in my area is about 150 lbs.  Will this load kill a deer out to 50 yards if I put it through his shoulders or lungs?

Thanks,
TH

[Lone Star]

Absolutely.  Deer are not armor-plated, and a 230/.45 at near 1000 fps into the lungs will do the deed.  Placement will be the biggest challenge as far as range goes.


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[petemi]

IMHO, 900 FPS is not a killing load for deer in any caliber.  Do you know how far a lung shot deer can go?  Using a load like that won't give you an exit wound and you probably won't find the animal. If you can't use a knock down killing load, in a hand gun, use a shoulder weapon that will take it off its feet.  Why are so many people trying to kill game with the smallest possible load.  We have a responsibility to take animals quickly and humanely.  If you don't want to do that you shouldn't be in the field.

And yes, Deer ARE armor plated with an incredible stamina.  I've seen them do impossible things when they should have been long dead.

[scout34]

Should do the trick, though bullet selection is very important.  Take the time to read this and it will help you make a good choice.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/index.htm

[Mikey]

300gn - you can get almost the same velocity with that slug from a 45 acp - actually, I believe my old Lyman Manual shows 960'/sec to be max velocity, but I would not use that to beyond 25-30 yds.  You might get a tad more velocity from the 45 Colt if you have a longer barrel but not much. 

At 40-50 yds the 230-975'/sec load may or may not get you a pass-through, which helps bring the critter down and many feel that loading (from the acp) is marginal on whitetail beyond 25-30 yds.  You may get a fatal wound but, as petemi noted, you may not find the deer.  The same load in the 45 Colt should not be expected to perform any better.

Whitetail are not armor plated but a wounded whitetail can travel a long way before going down and you may lose the animal.  I agree with petemi that we have a responsibility to take animals quickly - the 'humanely' part comes in with our ability to kill quickly, unlike some other predators. 

I understand your predicament following your wrist surgery but I doubt that load would bust through both shoulders at the range you provided.  It might bust up one shoulder but then you have a wounded deer.  It should get into the chest cavity through the ribs but may not pass through deeply enough to create an immediately fatal wound. 

I don't want to ask a silly question but....can you shoot with your other hand, or wear a brace to help bring those loads up a bit. 

Most here feel a 250 (or slightly heavier slug) at 950-1000'/sec is adequate for whitetail at 40-50 yds.  Consider how your load compares to that power level and take it from there.  Practice as much as you can with whatever loading you intend to use to maximize its capability but if you over-extend your or your handgun load capability your hunt may not be successful. 

HTH.  Mikey.

[petemi]

Mikey's reply brought another thought to mind.  I always shoot my handguns with both hands.  Use two hands and let the better one take the recoil.

[Redhawk1]

I'm loading 230 gr flat point hard cast bullets in my 45 colt at 975 fps.  I had wrist surgery, and this is all i can shoot comfortably right now.

A big deer in my area is about 150 lbs.  Will this load kill a deer out to 50 yards if I put it through his shoulders or lungs?

Thanks,
TH

Yes it will, shot placement and proper bullet construction will do the job. But Micky has some great points and going a little faster would increase your odds of a pass through shot.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont know where your shooting deer but ive shot quite a few with 44 and 45 bullets at that level and have only had one stay in an animal and that bullet went in at a angle in front of the shoulder and came to rest under the skin in the far side hind quarter. About 3 feet of pentration. Ive seen 45 colts at that level penetrate animals 5 times the size of an average whitetail deer. There is no such thing as a knock down caliber in rifle or handgun. Ft lbs of energy will NOT knock an animal off there feet. What you witness is the shutting down of the central nervous system when  a deer is dropped in its traces and ive seen it done with handguns and rifles. More times then not with either the animal will travel a short distance before dieing of bleeding which is what kills any animal. No blood to the brain. In my experience with hunting with many different handguns and rifles a 45 colt does it just as well as a 3006 at out to a 100 yards. I can gurantee you one thing for sure. Hit a deer with a 45 colt using a good hardcast bullet and you will have more of a blood trial then hitting it with about any rifle. They usually leak like a garden hose.  by the way ive shot many many deer with 2506s and even 300 mags and its a rare thing to see a deer hit by anything in the lungs that drops on the spot. Never has happened to me.

IMHO, 900 FPS is not a killing load for deer in any caliber.  Do you know how far a lung shot deer can go?  Using a load like that won't give you an exit wound and you probably won't find the animal. If you can't use a knock down killing load, in a hand gun, use a shoulder weapon that will take it off its feet.  Why are so many people trying to kill game with the smallest possible load.  We have a responsibility to take animals quickly and humanely.  If you don't want to do that you shouldn't be in the field.

And yes, Deer ARE armor plated with an incredible stamina.  I've seen them do impossible things when they should have been long dead.

[BIG Dog454]

Ah yes! A deer will definitely be able to continue on if shot with only a 230 gr 45 colt at 900+ fps penetrating both lungs. I've had them go as far as 20 yards and then THUD! 

[jhalcott]

  I took a bunch of deer off a golf course using a 7TC/U pushing a 168 fngc bullet to about 1000 fps. I shot them quartering to thru the on side shoulder and had MANY pass thru's. Few deer went very far after the shot. One young buck did go nearly 100 yards ,but he was skittish before I shot him. A nervous deer when shot CAN go quite far even though it's dead. I don't know how hard your bullets are but an 18BHN is a lot harder than what I normally use. Try to get some wet paper to use for a penetration test at 25 and 50 yards. 19 to 20" is more than MOST deer measure side to side. I have no doubts that with a decent hit ,you will have no problems.
  Remember,a good hit from a mediocre round is better than a BAD hit from a cannon.

[DCRthe3rd]

A deer CAN run with its heart turned to jello , I think most of us here know that.
I do believe a deer's "state of mind" if you will lends a part to what happens when it is hit.
I have shot alot of deer not during the normal hunting season , for crop damage , these deer weren't already spoked by gunfire , hunters in the woods , etc.
The vast majority of the time these deer on average run way less than those I've shot during the hunting seasons.
I would suppose there are others out there who have done what I have in regards to both hunting and shooting deer for crop damage , it would be interesting to see if their experience mirror mine.
Oh , it's very possible barring a solid shoulder hit that a 45 colt 230gr HARDCAST bullet MAY or may not blow threw a double lung hit on a 150 pound whitetail , as I know of a 250 GRAIN 45 COLT HAS EXITED THAT WAS MOVING AT AN EVEN SLOWER SPEED , ABOUT 30 YDS IF MEMORY SERVES ME. It'll certainly kill it for sure.

[petemi]

I know any of the rounds you guys have mention will kill them, my question is when??  A .22 long rifle through the lungs will kill them.........eventually.  I guess I'm a bigoted old fart.  I've got a .357 Blackhawk that I don't use for deer.  I have it with me, but it would have to be a ten yard head shot.  A .357 out of a rifle is still a very marginal caliber for deer.  .30-30s, including mine have killed millions of deer, but today, it is not the best deer caliber, and it has a hell of lot more whomp than a .45 colt in any load!

[Graybeard]

After all the deer Jerry Lester has killed with the .357 in both handguns and rifles I'm sure he'd argue that point with you.

I think too many of us old farts who've not tried it just assume it shouldn't be done. Some times it's better to listen to those who have experienced it many times over and accept their experience as wisdom rather than substituing our lack of experience for fact.

I too have never used the .357 Magnum on deer cuz I have much more appropriate choices I always seem to take instead. I also don't like 230 grain .45 caliber bullets and seem always to chose a 250 or heavier but that doesn't mean that due to my lack of experience with them or faith in them they don't work fine for those who have tried them.

[Lone Star]

....30-30s, including mine have killed millions of deer, but today, it is not the best deer caliber, and it has a hell of lot more whomp than a .45 colt in any load!

If you say so.  But as someone who has taken deer with both cartridges out of rifles, the game's reaction to a Ruger-level .45 LC load (300-grain at 1550 fps) out of my M94 Trapper was far more dramatic than to the .30-30s bullet (170-grain at 2050 fps).  That large diameter flat point works very well for those who have actually used it.   Then again, since "whomp" is a totally meaningless ballistic term I suppose there is room for interpretation....   


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[petemi]

We weren't talking about a .45 LC at 1500 fps.  We were talking about a .45 at less than 1000 out of a hand gun.  Whomp means don't stand in the way.

Graybeard, I'm sorry, but I've chased too many wounded deer by visiting hunters using .357 lever guns to ever try one myself.  I have better calibers for the job.

Another point....I was brought up, drilled into my head, whatever  1000 feet per second and 1000 foot pounds was minimum for deer.  My .308, .30-06, .45-70 and .50 cal. Huntsman dump them where they stand.  No looking for blood on wet autumn leaves.

I only go for lung shots over 100 yards, if I have to.  There are better killing shots, with a lot less meat damage.  Most times I whistle at them, get them to look at me and shoot them in the face.  I hunt venison, year and a half old does, and let the big bucks go for my friends.

[DCRthe3rd]

To the fella who started this post , I don't think a 250 loaded to about 900 fps would have any more/less noticeable recoil than your current load. And there is little doubt that a hardcast threw the the boiler room which moves less than a head and is bigger of a target once you've ruled out blowing their snout off will put deer meat on the table.
As with any animal , you mark the spot he was standing when you shot and where you last seen him ,EVEN IF HE DROPS THEN AND THERE as sometimes walking to a down deer they can blend in well on the ground in the forest, then go collect the deer

[.357 shooter]

300grjhp, That combination will work fine on any whitetail, and some larger critters. Place the bullet in the boiler room, and you will have a pass through and dead deer. Shoot at the distance you can keep a bullet in the kill zone of the critter you are hunting.

petemi: if you are chasing deer, the deer is not hit in the vitals. That is not bullet, caliber fault. That is shooter error, bad shot choices or just bad shooters. The bullet was not placed where it should be period. No animal on earth is going to live long with, a hole in both lungs, or a hole in it's heart period. Will it run sure but it will leave a blood trail a blind man can follow. I have never had a vital shot deer travel over a 100 yards, with any caliber. Have I shot deer badly of course, you hunt long enough it will happen. But I don't care if it is shot with the largest caliber or the smallest a non fatal shot animal, will need to be chased.


Bryan

[S.B.]

IMHO, 900 FPS is not a killing load for deer in any caliber.  Do you know how far a lung shot deer can go?  Using a load like that won't give you an exit wound and you probably won't find the animal. If you can't use a knock down killing load, in a hand gun, use a shoulder weapon that will take it off its feet.  Why are so many people trying to kill game with the smallest possible load.  We have a responsibility to take animals quickly and humanely.  If you don't want to do that you shouldn't be in the field.

And yes, Deer ARE armor plated with an incredible stamina.  I've seen them do impossible things when they should have been long dead.

I'll bet this load has a complete pass through on a whitetail deer?

[Texgun]

 When  I have any doubt of taking a deer down with a handgun I shoot at the neck. In every instance the deer goes down and another shot will finish him off as soon as you get close.

[petemi]

I guess I was brought up with the rule 1000 fps and 1000 ftlbs was minimum for deer.  I don't understand the fascination with trying to kill deer or any other animal with the lightest possible load.

[John R.]

I've shot deer with a 250 gr. XTP @ 1200 fps. and 300 gr. wfn @ 1000. out of my 45 Colt Bisley. To be honest I couldn't tell the difference in killing power. If you put that 45 caliber bullet in the right place, you won't look far. Oh yeah, I've never recovered either from a deer and only one from a big hog. (250 XTP) I don't use the XTP's on hogs anymore, I use a 325 gr. WLN @ 1200 fps.

[DCRthe3rd]

I guess I was brought up with the rule 1000 fps and 1000 ftlbs was minimum for deer.  I don't understand the fascination with trying to kill deer or any other animal with the lightest possible load.

I say this as polite as possible , but that is because you were brought up old school under the notion that found pounds means more than it really does , what has been left out was bullet construction.
Case in point many 223 rds will have as much as 1295 foot pounds and even more into the 1300's
now my hard cast bullet in my 44mag generates LESS than 800 foot pounds.
As many 223 hunting loads are of varmint bullets which is the gun/load for deer/bear? Correct the 44mag , but if it was all about foot pounds it would be the 223 with the reputation as a big game killer , but it is not the known killer on big game the 44mag is , forget about foot pounds.
Bullet construction and up to a point bullet speed is what it's about.

[petemi]

Yes, you're correct, thinking about it.  You make perfectly good sense.  I'm 67 and still learning.  Thanks

[DCRthe3rd]

Oh it's certainly not a problem. You can find some states who still use foot pounds as a measurement of what is a legal hunting round. Why? I suppose it's the old school line of thought plus foot pounds is so easy to figure out, find the weight and speed and we can throw around foot pounds all day and night of bullets we know nothing else about.
The 243 is another example I like for the states that use the foot pounds theory.
Take a 243 70 grain tnt bullet , certainly way more than the 1000 pounds required by many states , but a terrible big game bullet.
Now a 100 grain seirra soft point in 243 would drop and whitetail I ever seen or heard about and many people claim to have used that caliber and weight for elk although I would choose something larger , but with both rounds meeting the 1000 foot pounds requirement ,and both can be incredibly fast and the state would allow either.
We like to crunch numbers and use figures on the box and in the manuals , thats one reason I suspect foot pounds is so popular.
Plus sometimes the old school way is best , but I just believe not in this case.

[corbanzo]

15ft*lbs is required to secure a spark plug. 

I don't know about all these foot pound rules... but you have to look at it in perspective to the caliber. 

Now if I had a 300 grainer in .45 that was going 900fps.... that is only 550 ft lbs.  But even that slow... it is going to penetrate and kill any thin skinned animal out there at handgun range. 

If I was to take my -06, and drop my 165 grain bullet down to about 1600 fps, then I would have your rule of 1000 ft*lbs.  The thing is, I don't want a bullet that small going that slow.  A .308 caliber at 1600 ain't much for penetration...  Now if I took that same bullet down to the energy of that .45 load... it would be going about 1225fps...  A 308 at 1225?  I don't think so.

So you take that same speed and weight, you throw it in a 357 mag.  Now at close range with deer sized game, a .358 caliber would work with 165 grains at 1225fps.  I still wouldn't try it with the .308 caliber bullet though.



Now lets just say you are right, and we need 1000 fps and 1000 ft lbs.

We take our .45, and we throw the bullet out there at 1000fps and 1000ft lbs. 

Problem:  we are now shooting a 450 grain bullet.  I don't know if you have looked around... but there aren't that many 450 grain bullets made for the .45.


So with this one, I am going to have to revert to the same thing that GB said.  Quit talking about the rules and what the book says, and look to experience of hunters who have killed lots of animals with these "too light" loads.

I guess I was brought up with the rule 1000 fps and 1000 ftlbs was minimum for deer.  I don't understand the fascination with trying to kill deer or any other animal with the lightest possible load.

And the light load has nothing to do with any fascination.  In this situation, it is about the health of a man's wrist.  In any situation, lighter loads are more accurate due to less influence of recoil.  And also, these lighter loads cause less fatigue when practicing, making it better practice.  A better shot with a lighter load?  Does that make up for a deficit in energy?  Yes it does. 

[Greeenriver]

I'm loading 230 gr flat point hard cast bullets in my 45 colt at 975 fps.  I had wrist surgery, and this is all i can shoot comfortably right now.

A big deer in my area is about 150 lbs.  Will this load kill a deer out to 50 yards if I put it through his shoulders or lungs?

Thanks,
TH

Yes, with no problems, and probably would work out to 75 yds, if you can do your part.  I use a 200 grn cast bullet at about that same speed and have had good luck with it.

Much more important than a few grn difference in bullet weight is being able to wait for the shot you KNOW is right, that you can be sure of taking cleanly.  So many people recommend heaver bullets for the edge in a marginal shot, but I don't take marginal shots. Ever. For any reason on live game.  Nobody should take a marginal shot on live game. We owe it to the game we hunt to have enough respect for that game to be sure of every shot we take at live game.

And by your asking about the 45 bullets, it shows you are thinking the same way about this.

Greeenriver

[Ole Man Dan]

I shoot a 265WFN at 1100fps and it takes out both shoulders and passes thru.  If you must shoot JHP bullets shoot for the heart/lung area.  If you shoot cast bullets, take out the shoulders.  (I dropped to my light loads after Rotator cuff surgery, they work)

[Lone Star]

...So many people recommend heaver bullets for the edge in a marginal shot, but I don't take marginal shots. Ever. For any reason on live game.  Nobody should take a marginal shot on live game. We owe it to the game we hunt to have enough respect for that game to be sure of every shot we take at live game...

This is wonderful in theory, but in reality seldom proves out over time.  After over 40 years of deer hunting and not taking "marginal shots" I still have had deer take a step between the trigger squeeze and the bullet strike, making what would have been a perfect shot into a bad one.  Because I usually shot bullets capable of more than "perfect hit" performance I recovered those animals.  To plan for only "perfect shots" is to deny reality and could reflect on a lack of real hunting experience. 

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[nomosendero]

...So many people recommend heaver bullets for the edge in a marginal shot, but I don't take marginal shots. Ever. For any reason on live game.  Nobody should take a marginal shot on live game. We owe it to the game we hunt to have enough respect for that game to be sure of every shot we take at live game...

This is wonderful in theory, but in reality seldom proves out over time.  After over 40 years of deer hunting and not taking "marginal shots" I still have had deer take a step between the trigger squeeze and the bullet strike, making what would have been a perfect shot into a bad one.  Because I usually shot bullets capable of more than "perfect hit" performance I recovered those animals.  To plan for only "perfect shots" is to deny reality and could reflect on a lack of real hunting experience. 

.

Very good post & applies to handguns, rifles, slug guns & muzzleloaders alike. With my bow, well I have to be even more careful. 

[Tom W.]

I've read in the gun rags of  the 1000 /1000 rule for years. I also recall that it was a breakpoint for rifle cartridges, not handguns... The main use of this "theory" was to limit the "effective " factory loaded deer cartridges to the .243  at the low end of the spectrum. Big bore Hand guns with cast bullets are a whole 'nother animal...