Interesting direction for the 38-55

[handirifle]

Having to look for lead alternatives, for hunting in Kalifornia, I cast some bullets out of lead free solder, which is basically tin.

I've found out several constants.  It harder than lead, not sure how much yet.
It's lighter than lead, by a consistant 33%.

It casts very smoothly. 

It casts at zero shrinkage.  If anything, it expands a bit.

So with that..   The ones I've cast are not brittle, at least to the hammer test.  Whacked one very hard on a concrete floor, with a framing hammer.  Bent the shank of the bullet, distorted the nose, but no cracks.  I haven't shot them yet, to see IF or how much, they will expand.

I have cast for the 45-70 and now the 38-55.  I'm gonna make at least one a hollow point and see IF it expands, and if it does, will the nose portion, crack or flow back like lead based bullets.

The 430gr (lead) mold for the 45-70 casts a perfect 300gr bullet that is the same length and weight of the Barnes TSX 300gr.  The 235gr (lead) mold for the 38-55, casts a perfect 170gr bullet.  Since my Lee mold casts the bullets a bit small dia for my 38-55 (in lead) I figured I'd try tin.  Voila, .380-.381 every time.  Haven't tried to chamber them yet.

The .460 Ranch Dog mold casts at .462, which MIGHT be an issue in the Marlin, will see.

And it sure casts a pretty bullet.  These are the 45-70's I cast.

[quickdtoo]

Good work, but you're gonna have to change your name to Tinman now!!

Tim

[stimpylu32]

Handirifle

I like the concept , now we need a range report with expansion and penetration results , What is your projected cost per bullet compaired to lead , do you have any idea yet ?

I like the silver look too , should work on wearwolves also . 

stimpy

[handirifle]

Good one Tim, , Stimpy, it seems to be around $.75 each so far, maybe less if I can get tin in bulk.  Will post a range report.  Hopefully I can get out this weekend.

[dpe.ahoy]

Don't know as I would worry to much about expansion, good thing about those 2 are they are already "pre-expanded" as is.   Poke one with one of those and as they say,"eat right up to the hole."  Probably have to have more speed to get them to expand.  Waiting to hear the report.  They are right "purdy" though.  DP.

[dpe.ahoy]

Just wondering, what about 22 LR and mag?  Are those gone too.?  Damn, thats un-American!   Best pack up and git while the gittin is good.   DP

[handirifle]

Local gunshop tells me that CCI has 22 Mag rounds on the way.  Not sure what they're like but may have to find out.

The 45-70 ones I'm not worried about expanding, some would be nice but not necessary.  The smaller 38-55's might need to though.  I loaded one up tonight to shoot into the sand bottle and see what happens.  First into a gallon jug of water, passing on through into gallon jugs of wet sand to capture the bullet.

Gonna test the 45-70, 38-55, and two different 210gr TSX bullets I made for the 375 Win.

Hope I have enough sand!

[stimpylu32]

handirifle

Have you run any of these through a lube / sizer yet ? was wondering how they would do compaired to lead being harder ?

stimpy

[STUMPJMPR]

Those bullets are just too PRETTY too shoot....lol

[handirifle]

handirifle

Have you run any of these through a lube / sizer yet ? was wondering how they would do compaired to lead being harder ?

stimpy

I only have one for the 45-70's and did those last night.  They seemed to go through fine.  They are lubed with the red stick lube Tim sent me.  Gonna try two things out at one time.

I did load one of the unsized 38-55 bullets in a 38-55 brass also so check function in the Target rifle.  It went in fine, was a tad tight on close and you have to give it a good snap to open it.  I might get to the range today or tomorrow.  Will see.  I really want to see how these do.  I also want to test expansion on the TSX loads as well.

[stimpylu32]

Handirifle

When you say tight to close , do you think its from the oversized bullet causing the case to rub the chamber ? The reason I ask is that it may increase pressures by having too tight of a grip on the bullet , just like loading into the lands or a very heavy crimp , so be careful .

stimpy

[handirifle]

Handirifle

When you say tight to close , do you think its from the oversized bullet causing the case to rub the chamber ? The reason I ask is that it may increase pressures by having too tight of a grip on the bullet , just like loading into the lands or a very heavy crimp , so be careful .

stimpy

Stimply
Yes I think the bullet might be a bit tight in the chamber.

The bullet weighs 170gr and load I selected is the starting 38-55 load for a 255gr bullet.  it should be fine within those parameters.

[oneshotonekill]

What is the melting point of the solder?  I would think it was pretty low, low enough that you may melt part of the bullet upon firing??  Could make for quite a mess if it is.

[quickdtoo]

Tin melts at ~450º, lead at ~620º, but with a gas check, it shouldn't be an issue.

Tim

[handirifle]

The 38-55 bullets do not have a GC on them so I will have to check them out.  Looking on this site http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm (HUGE amount of info there) they say the BNH of tin is 7.  Pretty low so it should expand pretty well.  I think I'm going out tomorrow AM.

First to test on my list is the TSX bullets, then the tin bullets.  The reason is, I'm using one gallon milk jugs with water and sand.  There will be one gallon of water in front (Barnes bullets' suggestion) and then milk jugs lined up behind this filled with fine sand and then water poured in, to stop the bullet.

My HOPE is I'll be able to look at the first jug, in each case, to see the exit hole and determine if the bullet expanded inside the water-only jug, before hitting the sand.

I'm hoping they do not penetrate too many of the sand jugs, since they are a limited number (6), and I have two styles of the .375 TSX bullets, one 45-70 tin bullet and one 38-55 tin bullet.  I currently have 5 water only jugs.  If I don't go out tomorrow, it might be a month before I get another chance.  There's SOOOOO many things going on in June for us it's not funny.

Anyway I'll post results sometime tomorrow, with pics I hope.

How many jugs of sand do you guys think a 375 TSX bullet will penetrate?  I might be able to make up one more tonight.

Say, I just picked up a bucket of wheel weights from a local tire shop.

Some of the stick on ones say this

1/4oz
T-A-W
7gm

others say this

1/4oz
7g

Does the "T" possibly mean tin?

How do I tell the difference between zinc clamp on one and the lead alloy ones?

[knight0334]

that lead-free solder is a good idea.   you can make longer bullets for a higher BC - but have the weight of shorter lead bullets.     

Knight's groundhog algebra:
(lighter = higher velocities) + (high BC = higher retained velocities and less arc of flight) = bigger woodchuck splat

[handirifle]

OK range report

First, here's a pic, or two.



The above pic shows (L to R) the Barnes TSX gen 3, the Barnes TSX gen 2, the remains of a 300gr lead free 45-70 bullet, the remains of a 430gr cast lead 45-70 bullet, the remains of a 170gr lead free solder 38-55 bullet, and a 45-70 bullet I did my hammer torture test on.



The above pic is the last two lead free solder 45-70 bullets shot for accuracy test, but only at 25yds.  Even still it looks promising.

Looking at the bullets, you need to know how they were tested.  For all but the 45-70 bullets, I shot them into one gallon of water, then the bullet went into gallon jugs of wet sand.  Actually I shot the first lead free 45-70 into water, but the shot allowed the bullet to miss the sand jug.  I shot it a bit too low at first.

The 38-55 bullet started life at 170gr, went through the water, into the first sand jug about 2/3 of the way through.  Very little expansion, but good penetration, and pretty fair weight retention at 157.2gr.  Estimated MV was 1000fps.

This was about the 38-55 but I'll pass on the other info as well.

The gen 3 TSX bullet didn't perform too well, in my opinion.  In all fairness, Barnes did advise me to "score" the hollow point to aid in expansion.  It looks like that design really needs the help.
The gen 2 TSX opened on it's own to a .675" mushroom.  MV unknown but estimated about 2100fps.

The lead free solder 45-70 bullet, spread to .565" and shed some weight, much like any cast bullet would, normally.  It ended up going from 300gr to 171.5gr, penetrating 1 1/2 sand jugs.  MV was about 1800fps.

The lead cast bullet really surprised me in a couple ways.  First, it spread to a HUGE 1.235" mushroom, still weighing 423gr from a start of 435, second, it only penetrated one jug and smashed into the second one, barely breaking the plastic skin.  It made a dished out (1/2") dimple.  MV was a little over 1700fps.

Conclusions,
The 38-55 bullet, as is, I wouldn't use for hunting deer.  It's make a good coyote load, but unless I can make it expand, it needs to sty on smaller animals.  At higher velocities it might perform pretty well, but it needs to be sized properly, and have a gas check installed.    The 45-70, performed well enough to take deer or black bear, I think, and it appears pretty accurate.

The Gen 3 TSX needs a lot of work.  Gen 2 will work as is.

[stimpylu32]

handirifle

Thank you , very good report , the lead cast does not surprise me as much as the 38/55 does , I would have expected it to at the very least flatten out like the tin 45/70 did . You may be right about it needing more speed to work , also maybe a hallow point would too .

I can see why you would be disappointed with the Gen 3 Barnes , at the price of those bullets you would think that they could score the tip before they shipped them . 

All in all I think you defiantly have a handle on this NO LEAD thing . 

stimpy

[handirifle]

Stimply
Just to make sure, read this thread, http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,139676.0.html.  The bullets did not come from Barnes as I shot them.  They do NOT make bullets for 375 cal leverguns.  The one that did mushroom nicely, is the one with the shorter snout and larger opening.

I will experiment more with the Gen 3 versions, for several reasons.  One is they're easier to make, than Gen 2, it's easier to make them identical (called consistancy), and I think they will retain their energy better downrange.

Now if I can just make the darn things open.

Anyway, this project has been and still is fun, and I'm learning a LOT about bullet performance.