RCBS Neck Sizer die, Bad die or Bad Brass? UPDATE 5-11

[hotburn76]

I just bought a few dies from RCBS, a deprimer and neck sizer die.  I have been using a lee die set and have been using a Redding body die to bump the shoulder and then the FL sizer set up just a tad to just do the neck.  I have 100 rounds of Hornady brass, the same brass that I made a post about a while back about getting some loose primer pockets.  Well I deprime, then bump all my shoulders and then I start to neck size.  I noticed right away their was not much drag at all.  Took a bullet and I could shove it in the case by hand.  Took the RCBS die out and put in the LEE die and it sized it fine, meaning I could not push bullet in by hand.  I pulled both the sizer pins and they both measured .202 with a caliper.  The hornady brass has been neck turned and I have been told that Lee dies over work brass compared to most dies.  Could the Lee die have a smaller inside bore on the neck part smashing it down more then the RCBS, and the thinner necks are problem?  I did notice that after I neck turned the cases they did not size near as hard.  Before I turned the necks the lee die was real hard to work, even with alot of lube.  Or could I have a bad RCBS die?  I also bought 100 Winchester brass and neck sized a few of them.  I could not push the bullet in with them, but the necks are also way out of round, they looked ok after sizing, but they must take them out of the presses with pliers, or scoop them up with coal shovels cause all the necks are bent pretty good on all of them.  Sorry so long, just confused on this.

[LaOtto222]

 

[Fred M]

Hotburn 76.
You have outside neck reamed your brass, to what? I don't notice that you have taken any measurnents to acertain what needs to be removed from the neck walls. Nor do I see any evidence of you using a tubing micrometer to
measure neck walls. Nor do I see that you know what the diameter of the
chamber and the fired case is? Your outside neck turing seves no real purpose the way you are doing it.

Neck turning serves a  special purpose, namely to be compatable with the
neck sizing die and trueing the neck walls. An expander plug is not needed when doing out side neck turning. You remove only enough from the the neck walls so the the neck die will size only 2 thou - 3 thou. That is more than enough for to hold a bullet tight. There is no expansion required.

A bushing die will make thing a bit more easier by selecting a bushing to suit
a particular neck tension. I advise that you study advanced hand loading 
techniques and tools.

[hotburn76]

Well Fred, you ask a lot and I will try to cover everything you mention.  Will first admit I am new to this reloading arena and anything you guys can offer I will take in.  What first started the whole neck turning stuff for me was a hammer style bullet puller.  The guy that first started with me had one, I loaded some rounds wrong so he said we should pull to be safe.  We put a bullet in a hammer style puller and we hammered so hard and long that we cracked the puller and the bullet never came out.  He said I must have really thick necks making to much tension on the bullet, this was with my lee dies and hornady brass.  I asked if thick wall can affect accuracy and he said it can, and to much tension can also.   So me being the new novice, it was next on the list to get.  When it came I ended up turning my necks down to .011 thickness, I was surprised at how many high spots my cases had on them so if figured I was doing good.  Told the guy at work and he said .011 is on the thin side, but if my bullets held in good it is no problem.  My bullets held in tight and took some good pulling with pliers to get out so I figured I was on track, or at least did something right.  My neck turner is a modified version of a RCBS turner.  I did not like the mandrel that came with it, to much slop and you could push the case out of round real easy IMO.  So being a tradesman I have access to a lathe I made a new mandrel and also milled out a spot for a mic which when compared to a feeler gauge is right on the money.  Sorry this is getting long, just trying to tell you all to make it easy to help.  This is why I originally turned my necks, thought I had to much tension, and just trying to make my necks true.

So I covered what I turned my necks to, I took measurements, don't have a tube mic, but what I have works.  Now this next part is where I first took your advice from a previous post Fred.  My loaded rounds are .225 and my chambered fired rounds are .232 to .234, I made a post about chamber slop a while back asking about this and had mixed reviews so I figured I was ok. Then seen a post about you I think talking about partial neck sizing, so I have been doing that, and have had my best groups to date with that.  I used my Lee FL die, turned up to only size the top half of the neck.

I thought about buying the RCBS die that takes bushings but tried to go cheap, maybe regretting that now, just have a plain old RCBS neck sizer die.  Hope all this helps, again just trying to give you as much info as I can so you can help out.  Here are some pics of my neck turner with the additions I made to it.

Thanks, Jason

[Ireload2]

Jason,
Do you have small hole gauges or a set of .001 increment pin gauges? If so check the neck ID of your dies and compare to the OD of a loaded round. You may discover the answer. In the mean time Fred knows what he is talking about.

I take it this is a .204 Ruger. You need to develop really good work habits with your reloading. All of this started because you made what you thought was a screw up. Then you tried to pull the bullets with an inertia puller and thought there was a problem. Bad assumption
The .204 bullets are so tiny they have little inertia so you can beat the hell out the puller and never pull a bullet. A .17 cal would be even worse.
On the other hand try pulling a 500 grain bullet from a 45-70. It is pretty easy because the bullet is so heavy.
If you don't want to spend any more money just FL size your brass until it worn out otherwise you may have to buy a bushing die.
EDG

[hotburn76]

Jason,
Do you have small hole gauges or a set of .001 increment pin gauges? If so check the neck ID of your dies and compare to the OD of a loaded round. You may discover the answer. In the mean time Fred knows what he is talking about.

I hope my post did not come across as sarcastic, it was not meant to be.  I know Fred knows what he is talking about, at least when I read his post they sound good to me.  I was happy to see him reply to mine, and that was why I invested time into a long response about all that I did.  If you read the post Fred I meant it all in good terms and value your opinion on this.  He was the guy that gave me the partial neck sizing idea, and it seamed to help with my groups.

I take it this is a .204 Ruger. You need to develop really good work habits with your reloading. All of this started because you made what you thought was a screw up. Then you tried to pull the bullets with an inertia puller and thought there was a problem. Bad assumption
The .204 bullets are so tiny they have little inertia so you can beat the hell out the puller and never pull a bullet. A .17 cal would be even worse.
On the other hand try pulling a 500 grain bullet from a 45-70. It is pretty easy because the bullet is so heavy.
If you don't want to spend any more money just FL size your brass until it worn out otherwise you may have to buy a bushing die.
EDG

You nailed that right, bullet puller made me think, or at least the guy helping me think the necks were to think, sound good so I agreed with him.  And the other part was just trying to true up my necks.  I do not want to FL size every time, mainly doing all this to get better groups.  If I had groups that shot well with FL sized rounds I would do it, but have not found it yet with four different powders and five different bullets.  So that is why I am on this neck sizing stuff!!  LOL!!

[LaOtto222]

 

[Fred M]

Hotburn 76.
Here is an outline of good precision handloading. To start with emove the expander ball from your FL and Neck die since you have a neck turing tool.
By using a expander ball all you do is overworking the the neck walls.

Take a new case and run into your FL and Neck die and record the O.D.
Take a fired case and measure the O.D.

Measure the neck wall thickness in several places the get the thinnest section.
Well I don't shoot a 204 so I make some assumptions.
Say your neck wall is 0.0128 at the thinnest part, the bullet is .204 the loaded
shell would be 0.2296". The chamber neck would be plus 0.003.

The FL die would size the case at least 0.005 less than o.204 I.D or 0.209 I.D.
Now we want that I.D 0.202 for good bullet tension. So we would turn need
to turn the necks wall 0.0015 . That is 0.0128 - 0.0015= 0.0113. That would give you a loaded shell of 0.0113x2+0.204= .2266, you had .225 or a liitle
less neck tension but not too bad.

Here is how I would do it. Expand all necks with the 20 cal Expandrion which
is made to be to work perfectly with the neck turner pilot. Next step is trim all brass to uniform length using the shortest case in the lot.

Now you are ready to do outside neck turning,polish spin the inside necks with
#0000 steeel wool. Chamfer inside and outside of case mouth. Uniform flash holes and primer pockets Size cases with out the expander ball.

With a Handi you would need to bump the shoulder to keep the base flush
with the end of the barrel.

Here are the tools I use. For BR ammo I also use a concentricity gage. They are all K&M tools exept the drill press case trimmer by Forester.

[hotburn76]

Thanks Fred, that's a lot of info!  I had to read it several times, but I think I understand what you mean.  So from what I can gather my RCBS die is ok, just my Hornady necks are now to thin for the RCBS die.  If I want to continue to use the Hornady brass I have to use my lee dies for them, and need to have my ducks in a row before I mess with turning the winchester brass.  You mentioned a good reloading book.  Do you guys recommend one that covers this kinda stuff, or are my only options what are in the front of load data books?  Any recommendations on this will be great, and give me something to tell the local shop to order.   

[LaOtto222]

Here are a few links that you might find informative or where you can purchase courses and or books.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/advanced/advanced_reloading.htm

http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm

http://www.barnesbullets.com/clubs/copper-club/

http://www.riflemagazine.com/catalog/listing.cfm?subcategoryid=22

[Fred M]

La Otto

These are great links. Varmint Al is perhaps the best source of advanced handloading procedures. I have corresponded with Al quite often and recommend his pages. He also has links to my web pages and a great story
of my late Labrador. ""Blackie" my Black Labrador Retriever." by Fred The Reloader

[hotburn76]

Well I still am not having luck with the RCBS neck die.  The Winchester brass that I bought was FL sized with the Lee die and then I just loaded up some mild loads to fire form the brass, mainly to blow out all the dents as they drove me nuts.  Came home and neck sized with the RCBS die and I could still push the bullets in if I pushed with the tips of my fingers.  So I neck sized them all with the RCBS die and checked the neck wall thickness.  They varied from the thinest spots at .012 to the thickest at .0135 and I have not neck turned these at all.  The necks should be thick enough right? Do I have a bad or sloppy die.  I do not have the money right now for a bushing die and may have to go cheap again and get a lee Colet die.  Has this been seen before with the 204 RCBS dies?

[RugerNo3]

At this point, I'd be calling RCBS and get their take in this. They have an excellent warranty and will get you on the right track. I've never seen the reason to neck size ammo for a sporting rifle that is factory chambered. You don't gain enough brass life to make up for the headaches. Get a shim made to put under the full length sizing die that is properly set and partially resize your brass. The shim used with the 38Spec die is .10" thick for resizing 357 Mag. It may work. Unless you are indexing brass for each shot, you are gaining nothing but grief on the road you're on. You need more time for shooting and less time reloading.
Failing this, get that rifle rebarrelled with a custom barrel and chamber for a specific case and bullet combination with dies made to match and index your cases to the chamber. Buy match grade bullets in 10,000 lots then you can load ammo to get your .25" smaller groups then you are capable with a factory rifle. Just emphasizing what 45years of reloading has taught me.

[coyotejoe]

The only "bad" reloading die I've ever gotten was an RCBS 6.5x55 full length sizer which would not reduce the neck enough to hold a 6.5 bullet in several brands of brass. I replaced it with a Lee die and life is good.

[GPR125]

Have you ever stopped to think how a die reshapes the brass?   When you run the case up into the die, the stem drops inside the empty case and the neck and shoulder area is compressed.  Depending upon whether it's a FL die or neck size only dictates how much compression is applied, along with how the die is adjusted.  I just bump the shoulder back enough for easy chambering and function with a warm chamber (varmint rounds). for hunting calibers I want absolute chambering ease, as heat is seldom a factor.  As you lower the ram, the stem is drawn out and pushes the neck to a nominal diameter.  This is where most case stretch occurs.  I try to make sure a little case lube is on the inner edge of the neck.  I've used Lee dies for years, but change out the adjustment ring to a locking type.  That way once the die is adjusted, it'll repeat when reinstalled in the press.  I've never found Lee dies to be any harder on brass than others I've used.  It's mostly how you adjust them.  I've got LC 72 cases that have been loaded close to 15 times.

[hotburn76]

Well I made up a pin type gauge at work out of brass and after getting it close to the right diameter I just turned it down until it would fit snugly into the RCBS die.  I ended up with a round stock that measured at .2315 that would fit firmly into the die.  I then continued to size it down until it fit into the Lee die and it did at .2240 and was also a tight fit, no slop.   So from this measurement of .231 subtract .204 and then .002 for proper tension I need brass with a wall thickness of .0145 for this RCBS  to work, right?  My lee die should take brass at .011 and mine measure a loaded round at .225 so that should put the walls at .0105 which is pretty close.  For me that helps with why the Le dies still work and the RCBS dies do not.  Next question is should I send the die back to RCBS and the next one will be right or are they all like this?  I would guess a none adjustable die would be made for brass around .012 or less IMO.  Does all this sound right or am I way off base on this one?

[Ireload2]

Call RCBS customer service 800 number and ask for the guy that replaced Jay Postman. They can tell you what diameter their dies are supposed to be.

EDG

[NFG]

From reading your posts and the responses, I get the distinct impression you are trying to run before you can even crawl...no flame intended...another way to say it is "you don't quite understand all you don't know about the subject"...again no flame intended or implied.  This subject is a bit hard to comprehend at best and if full of contradictions and personal prejudice along with a ton of knowledgeable people some of which have already made a stab at explaining.

I don't think it is the RCBS die's fault.  Most dies are cut to stay within SAMMI specs and SAMMI has tolerance range for ALL the components related to arms, components and ammunition.  All you did was cut the neck walls too thin...you "didn't understand all you didn't know about the subject".  I would bet something similar or the same thing has happened to just about all reloaders at one time or another.  I know from "experience"...mine and several others.

You need good equipment BEFORE getting into anything resembling accurate load development, so break out the checkbook...this sport is as bad a Golf and can get almost as expensive.

There are two of the best forums and sites I've found to help explain the nuances of reloading...read all the articles you can find, step back and clear your mind, then go back to step one in any good reloading manual and start over.  It will help you immensely.

http://www.freewebs.com/precisionrifle/accuracyarticles.htm.

http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html. 

Basically you haven't quite understood what neck turning, sizing, seating are all about and seem to have a few things mixed up.  You're not alone in this as far as beginners go.

My advice is to put the neck sizer away, it can get you into troubles you don't have any way of diagnosing or correcting and purchase a Redding Full Length bushing type die...the 50 dollar one and a Forester Ultra seater with the correct slider for the cartridge...this will get you started right and be the basis for future knowledge.

All the posters have given you gold when it comes to information and knowledge...most of it hard earned in the "old" days when we didn't have all the fancy equipment we have today.  It is much easier in today's world full of technically excellent equipment and I like it much better than some of the "stuff" I and others went through to get where we are today...but I wouldn't trade all that experience of yester-year...it gave me a stong basis for understanding what's really happening and why.

You also need to make or have a chamber cast made to give you the required numbers BEFORE you go much farther.  Firing a few factory rounds will also give you the needed measurements.  Neck turning has several purposes and factory chambers are notorious for being sloppy.  Forget neck turning until you get some understanding under you belt and understand the reasons for turning...Work on bullet seating and load developement...neck turning comes later on in the game when you have a custom or SAMMI minimum chamber to work with and neck turning has meaning.

Welcome to the long winding, kinky, muddy, hole filled, goat path on the side of a steep, slippery mountain road of reloading.

'Njoy

[Tencubed]

Well said NFG

Having been attempting to learn to reload ammo for something over fifty years now I know what you mean about some of the old equipment.  What really amazes me is what some of the early experimenters and wildcatters went thru.  The fellow that got me started when I was 14 years old had been messing with the hobby for something around forty years at that time.  He regularly corresponded with many of the old greats and did a lot of trial and error work himself.  Mr Mattson was the one that introduced my, via mail, to P. O. Ackley and got me started learning how little I knew or, for that matter, still know about this hobby.

Hand tool "Nutcracker" loading sets were the norm and any bench press was probably made from a machine shop bearing press.  Most dies were hand made at the time the rifle was chambered.  Lots of old Enfield and Springfield rifles were "sporterized and chambered to whatever was the whim at the time.

Powder and primers were ordered thru the mail and delivered to your mailbox along with the bullets, rifles and shotguns.  Black powder had to be bought at the local hardware store, bring your own container because it was in bulk, and you could pick up dynamite and caps on the same trip.  Days long past.

With the internet and books that are available today what took years to learn by word of mouth and trying things can be picked up in a matter of a few months now.  Big thing is to start at the beginning, with the basics, and work your way into the more complicated stuff.

Mike

[hotburn76]

I don't think it is the RCBS die's fault.  Most dies are cut to stay within SAMMI specs and SAMMI has tolerance range for ALL the components related to arms, components and ammunition.  All you did was cut the neck walls too thin...you "didn't understand all you didn't know about the subject".  I would bet something similar or the same thing has happened to just about all reloaders at one time or another.  I know from "experience"...mine and several others.

I understand what you are saying, but read post #11, I too read long post and skip over stuff, but post #11 was a update.  I have new Winchester brass, unturned, that has been fire formed and will not size in a new RCBS die.  You mentioned buying good stuff, and I thought RCBS was.  I know what you are saying, with my first post I thought that was what I did.  With this new brass that is untouched I feel that one of two things can answer my problem.  This is a bad die, or my new necks are too thin, they average around .0125 to .013 and from what I have read on small caliber cases .012 is the norm.  If this is wrong, I am ok with that, but would like to know.  

I admit to being still new to this, but so far feel I am doing pretty good.  My best load to date is between 5/8 and 3/4 inch at 100 yards with this 204.  I think that is pretty good, but have be trying to get better, not that I need to since that is well enough for a ground hog, but mainly because I like doing it.  Felt neck turning and neck sizing was the next step after great loads with FL sizing.  I think consistent 3/4 inch groups at 100 yards makes me feel like I at least have the basics learned, felt the neck stuff was a good next step, if there is another I am all open for it.  I have made friends with a guy at the range who has invited me over to talk shop, a retired guy in his mid sixties, I may have to work up the nerve and call him.

[NFG]

I could very well be the neck sizing portion of the die was cut oversize and won't resize a thin walled case...it happens...dies are mass produced items and SH** happens all the time, I've had it happen but you missed the point of tolerances and what they will do to you.

My point about understanding the relationship between chamber, sizing dies, bass wall thickness etc., is your not quite understanding the relationship between the various participants in the dance.  The ID of the neck sizer in relationship to the ID of the chamber neck and the ID and OD of the case.  The reason for using bushing dies is if one of the parameters is out of tolerance you can adjust the bushing size to make it fit...within certain ranges.  RCBS dies are good equipment but your arguements are more defensive and I didn't count the posts.  If you are refering to the one by Fred, he covered the informationt well, verbally and pictorally.   Fall back and mull it all over...all the answers are there.

Roger that Tencubed...I had a few dealings with Mr. PO Ackley way back then.  Haven't heard mention of the "nutcracker" in a coons age.  I don't know how some of those "Wildcats" ever got made other than with a whole lot of ingenuity and sweat.  The internet and the available information is amazing with the inevitable good news/bad news...the problem is everyone wants instant gratification...no one wants to cook anymore...run over to McD's and grab breakfast, lunch and dinner...and no one wants to pay the dues that is required except on a cursorily level...even me sad to say.  Remember when any rifle that would shoot a 6 or 7 was something to hold onto...TIGHT...(I remember whan a 3 would take the bacon home)  Bullets, cases, primers, powder had to be spun, weighed, measured everywhichaway it you expected to be competitive...everyone had their "secret knowledge" and no one said squat to anyone...and would sandbag the HE** out of anyone close enough to see something "good".   I would fake powder types and amounts, primers, bullet and case brands, seating depths and anything else just too keep an edge.  So would everyone else unless you were in the "group".  Those were some days, but I don't want to see them come back...I like today much better, even with the almost overwhelming amount of garbage we have to deal with to to our thing.

'Njoy

[Tencubed]

NFG

Last few shoots I went to were reminiscent of the old days to some extent.  It was interesting talking to the various competitors and their coaches, (coaches!  who would have thunk it.) all had different answers to the obvious questions.  The game continues.

It actually may be harder in some regards learning to reload now.  With the number of powders, bullets and jumble of brass available now you could spend a lifetime going thru the numerous combinations just available for the old '06.

At least we're past the bullet base and center of case ignition stuff as well as other slightly to very dangerous good ideas.

Mike

[hotburn76]

I do not mean to sound defensive.  I do not mind being criticized as long as it has fallow up.  Freds post in the beginning was critical, but then he asked very deliberate questions for him to be able to further help me, he provided links along with others to further help. Then I was able to answer him in which he gave more help.  So far you have gave me two post and the only thing you have done is tell me I have little knowledge of reloading.  Do you see what I am saying.  Felt I asked good questions after your first post and you just fallowed up with my lack of knowledge a second time.  Gets frustrating at times.

[Tencubed]

Hotburn76

Sorry for not addressing your question but it kind of looked to me as if it had been answered.  What appears to have happened is you may have started reaming case necks well before it was advisable to do so.  Oftentimes, as has been mentioned, we get started down the wrong path in this hobby and end up doing something that is counter productive.  Your damaged brass would be a small mistake compared to many that I and others have made.  It's kind of difficult to expand on what has been suggested other than to reiterate the suggestion to call the die maker with the dimensions you have found.  The function of the die is to squeeze the case down, the expander ball on the decapping rod expands it back out to a size that will hold the bullet properly.  The die, if it is oversize, will fail to sufficiently reduce the neck.  If the expander ball is oversize it will expand the case neck to the point it will fail to hold the bullet.  Having a nice round and uniform case neck comes after these basics have been addressed.  Once the die and expander ball have been addressed you need to be sure the OAL, over all length, of the cartridge is proper for the chamber.  Chamber cast, datum line or other headspace methods need to be addressed.  I could probably continue for a couple of pages but, as has been suggested, there are many excellent books already written and closely edited that cover all of this. 

The good and friendly folk on this forum could answer any question you can come up with I'm quite sure and I'm also sure no one meant to ignore your question. The simple fact is you would get a piecemeal and shotgun education with lots of holes in the pattern by asking questions and getting answers. Your best bet, IMHO, would be to take the time to read and study one of the volumes suggested and then proceed with your project.  There are now quicker ways than years ago to learn the basics but to shortcut and not become familiar with the safety, step by step methods required and prudent habits of reloading will lead to major problems.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Mike

[Fred M]

Hotburn76.
Your neck diameter in your RCBS is too big for sure. Send it back and have it replaced. Even with your case necks wall being a bit thin the FL die should still work.

Ask them to replace it with their bushing die and pay the little extra money.
They should do it for free because of all the hazzle they created. Do a little crying.
Send a couple of fired cases.

0.0125 to 0.013 is about right for most of the small case necks. So if we work this backwards 0.013x2= 0.026+0.204= 0.230-0.002 neck tension is 0.228 - an extra
0.004 to allow for spring back and expander. The die neck
should be 0.224 which is what the Lee die is.

You can also get your die converted to a bushing die by Jim Carstenen he does a bang up job for 45 Bucks. I have several of his conversions, they are first class.
If you send him 5 fired cases he will also hone your die to minimal body sizing.
One die will do all. Always start with getting all the measurments.

Pick out the best advise you got and forget about the rest, you are getting there.

[Gun Runner]

hotburn76, Call RCBS 1-800-553-5000, and talk to Charlie. He is the one that took over after Jay passed away. I make a trip or two up there every year as they are 53 miles from me. Any problems I have had they either fixed on the spot or replaced it on the spot and never have been charged anything. Example: I aquried  a old RCBS luber sizer and it dint have a handle, I called them and wanted to buy one. They said one would be shipped free of charge. I explained I had gotten it at a yard sale and they said it was still under warrenty, Its had to beat service like that

Gun Runner

[Ireload2]

Hotburn
Like Gunrunner say call RCBS for help and they will.
I inherited an electronic scale from a friend but it had no pan. I called them to buy one and they send a new one free.
The scale works great......
They replaced a 7mm-08 sizer on another forum that was oversize like yours, only the guy claimed he wore his out.

EDG