405 Win in Encore Pistol - Anyone?

[Big Gun]

I have been seriously considering the idea of ordering a 16.5 inch Encore barrel chambered for the good ol' 405 win cartridge.  I think this would be an ideal set up for big game / dangerous game / Africa.  Hand loading would be a must since Hornaday is the only company currently loading factory ammo and the load is really meant for the old lever action rifles.  Some of the recently discontinued and the currently offered Barnes bullets look like they would be great for this cartridge.  Does anyone out there have experience with the 405 win in an Encore?  What were your experiences, and what handloads worked?  Who did the barrel work?

I figured I would have to get SSK to chamber this one since none of the other companies list anyting in the .411 calibur as a normal chambering.  I saw comments on one of the other forums that JDJones did some work with the 411 JDJ.  I would definetly order it with a muzzle brake, and probably the full rib TSOB scope mount - hard crome finish or stainless?

[Big Gun]

I am kind of surprised that nobody has responded to this posting - let me elaborate a bit on the idea and how I arrived at the conclusion that the 405 win would be a better choice for dangerous game than the 45-70, 450 Marlin, or 444 Marlin - in an Encore pistol.

The power levels (muzzle energy) are all right at the same level, so muzzle velocities with like weight bullets are very similar, I imagine recoil too is very similar.  Bullets are available from 300 grains up to 400 grains for all of the calibers listed, and well beyond for the 45 cal - although some of those bullets are designed for the big magnums and performance out of the above mentioned 45 cal cartridges may be questionable (opinion only).  What makes the 405 more interesting is that their are spitzer type bullets available for it with better ballistic coefficents than the bullets availbe for the other cartridges.  Less drag means the bullet will travel a longer distance before it loses enough energy to not make a clean kill, therefore with the same weight of bullet the 405 win should out-perform the others mentioned.  The truth is if it wasnt for the .411 cal Barnes x spitzer bullets available for this callibur, and the Hornady brass available this project would not be near as interesting.

I admit, I don't have any ballistic software in order to simulate the 4 cartridges side by side in order to know what exactly the gain in effective range would be with the 405 win using spitzer bullets.  Perhaps someone who does or has done this comparison would like to comment.

As was pointed out to me by one of the guys at handgunhunt.com the other advantage of using the 405 win is the straigt case walls and the rimmed cartridge, in a hunting situation, especially if you are truly hunting dangerous game you can just turn the barrel up and the case will just drop out so you can quickly reload (while perhaps running away) .  This won't work with a non-rimmed case, for example the 375 H&H, not sure about the 450 Marlin, but I don't think the spent cases will drop out of that one when the barrel is tipped up either - maybe someone who shoots one could comment.

[MePlat]

I'll respond.  It is up to you what you want.  But I would take the 45/70 over most.  You can drive 350 gr bullets to slightly over 2000 fps with the right combinations in a 15 inch barrel.  You have Barnes X-Bullets for it in spitzer shape.  You have Barnes Solids for it. Hornady bullets for it and all others that you need.  You can get SSK to make you a 45/70 barrel that has a long throat and the big bullet can be seated out.  Or you can send them the T/C barrel and let them rechamber it to the long throat. Remember it is your money so spend it like you want.  What I think or anyone else thinks is irrevelent.
Have you thought of the 458 Win Mag in an Encore Pistol?  Maybe you ought to give it some thought.  It would be a good caliber for you.  BC's are good but how far do you expect to shoot and animal?

[MePlat]

Also I think on the cases dropping out under their own weight I say who would chance something like that.  Only just a speck of power could blow back on the case or anything else and could keep the cases from falling out so who would thrust that?  I still would much rather pick my case out of my barrel than to find it didn't fall out and still have to pick it out.
Those are things i just don't worry about.

[Big Gun]

Thanks for the reply :grin: , always interested in someone elses point of view.  I had not really thought seriously about the 458 win mag in a pistol lenght barrel, I don't think I would gain much performace on it vs. my 450 Marlin barrel.  Maybe a little more velocity / range, but I think that would be pushing the limit on recoil and muzzle blast :shock: .  

I haven't really made up my mind on the 405 win, but I figured someone else on this chat forum has had the same idea at one time or another.  In response to your other question, I would like an effective range of 200 - 250 yds.

[JJFly]

Let me start by saying, you cannot go wrong with your choice.  Sure some will perfer the 45-70 but I got a 405Win in a 16 1/4" barrel with a three leaf express sight and had it Magna-Ported.  Mine was in a Contender though.  Now before everyone gets in a hub about putting it in a Contender, the case head is smaller than the 444Marlin and the factory pressures are for the old levers, according to Hornady's Tech, 42,000 PSI MAX.  Anyway... I love the thing and wouldn't sell it for the world.  I think you could make due with a two leaf spring though.  In the Contender she's really something to hang onto, in the Encore it should be even more manageable.  I must confess though, I only use mine in the Pistole config.  Got the irons though to use as a rifle if I want though!  Give it a go, I'd seriously doubt you'd look back!  Also, Dave VanHorn chambers the 405Win in the Encore too.  Barrels are as good as SSK.  Get the premium grade for the few extra $$$

[MePlat]

Big Gun:  Just wondering who said you wouldn't get much performance from a 458 vs a 450 Marlin in a handgun?  I'm sure it must have been from someone who doesn't have a 458.
I would get a 458 and not look back..You will enjoy having one and it will serve you well with 300 gr X-Bullets or 500 gr Hornadys.

[Big Gun]

JJFly - thanks for the reply, I knew someone out there had to have done something like this.

MePlat - nobody told me anything about the 450 M vs the 458 w, just my own opinion.  What kind of performance gains can you see out of a pistol length barrel - from your comments I assume that you shoot one?  I have to imagine that, at least with factory loads, a 458 would be a flame thrower with the kick of a mule :shock: .  Handloading you could find a powder that burns a bit faster to reduce the flame throwing aspect, and load down to 45-70 performance levels, but then what did you gain - just a bigger chamber.  I guess everyone has their own limits on blast and recoil - and perhaps yours is higher than mine.  I want something I can actually take hunting, not just to the range to scare the straights.  

I know I can handle recoil levels of the 450 marlin and 45-70 since I already own barrels chamberd for these - I just think there is something to gain in the performance department with the 405 win vs the others using handloads.  And, this gain could be realized without additional recoil and muzzle blast.  I have already been thinking about playing with some of the Barnes X spitzer profile bullets in the 45 cal - could end up being just about as good .

[MePlat]

Big Gun:  The problem with much of ballistics you have a lot of he said she said.  
The 458 with 300 gr Barnes X-Bullets will do 2400 fps from a 14 inch barrel with a load that is safe.
The 500 gr Hornadys will run  to the low 1900's.
400 gr bullets will do 2200.
Recoil?  What is your level?  You have to determine that yourself.  If you think a 44 Mag is bad than leave the bigger guns alone.  The trouble with hard kicking calibers is they are not for practice but are for those that can already shoot and handle recoil.  That comes from the brain controlling the nervous system.  Recoil is a matter of mind control plain and simple but most refuse to believe that.  
If you can handle a 43/4 inch FA 454 Casull with 340 gr loads at 1400 I would say an Encore in 458 Win Mag would be within your capabilities once you got the mind game down pat.
Am I saying that the recoil is no heavier than a 454? No.  The felt recoil is not as bad but there is a greater push with the 458.
As an example the hump on the SRH 480 with a 425 at 1200 will pound ones hand more in the web than a FA 454 with a 420 at 1200 because of the roll up of the single action.
Recoil is only bad when it is painful not because it is heavy.  Just because recoil is heavy does not make it painful and that is what must be remembered.
Now if you want to know what recoil from the devils lair is fire a 15 inch Encore 45/70 with a 550 gr cast at close to 1500 fps or over with the tapered unbraked barrel and then you will get a lesson.
Have a good day.

[DanL]

I'll step in with as much a question as anything.  I'd been looking at the 405 because I'm a bit of 41 freak and I know (I think) the 405 shoots .411 bullets.  I have 250 and 265 grain Cast Performance bullets I've been playing with in the 41 mag barrel on the TC, and spent some time considering necking down a 444 Marlin case to 41.  Then I ran across the 405.  Hmmm.    A 250 grain bullet at what speed?

Thinking about it is all I've done, but Big Gun, sounds like an interesting project.

FWIW I enjoy shooting my unported Super 14 barrel in 45/70, but for some reason the 10" 44 mag kick is just nasty!  :shock:  Something about the quality of the recoil being different, even though its heavier on the 45/70.

[Big Gun]

MePlat - thanks for your suggestions, I posted this topic here to get different points of view.  At this point I don't think I am ready for a 458 in an Encore barrel - I shoot my 45-70 Contender 12 in Hunter and can do just like you said - control my reactions in order to keep it on the paper even though the recoil is substantial.  However I can tell that I am reaching my limit of recoil tolerance with this - that is one of the reasons that I am looking at the 405 win - power levels are on par with 444, 450 m, and 45-70 (at least in factory loads which is where I am getting my ballistics info) so I expect recoil levels to be similar.  Thanks again - appreciate the imput .

DanL - the 405 does shoot .411 bullets.  However most of the bullet offerings that I have seen are 300 - 400 gr jacketed bullets, I would think that with full house loads and cast bullets you would be getting into problems with lead fouling in the barrel.  There is some load info here http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=84 looks like a 300 grain bullet doing around 2300 FPS.

[Javelina]

Hello Big Gun,

I'm lining up with anyone who says you should have whatever you want.  That's just how it is - if you like it, you should get it no matter what anyone else thinks.

Just a quick suggestion - it might be beneficial to your thought process to take a look at the following site:  http://www.reedercustomguns.com/information/GNR_cartridges.htm

This is Gary Reeder's site and he has pictures and a good description of all his wildcat cartridges there.  You may find some of his wildcats based on the 405 Winchester of some interest since you are thinking of that particular cartridge anyway.  A person never knows what they might come up with after looking in a new direction.

I hope this is of interest to you.   :grin:

Safe and good shooting to you.

Javelina

[kciH]

.416 Remington Magnum?  Lots more bullets to be had.