TC Icon vs. Sako 75 or 85

[anweis]

With the declining value of the US $$$, the imported rifles such as Sako are above $1500 now.
However, it looks like the new TC Icon ($800) is a very nice alternative of equal quality. They have nice wood and high quality actions.
Would you think that the Icon is a good high quality alternative to the more expensive Sako?

[anweis]

I see now that Beretta is bringing a Sako A7 on the market, at about $800, but i am not sure if it differs much from a Tikka T3

[Brithunter]

Not having any experience with T/C products and personally thinking that the Contender is about the ugliest thing on the market I cannot really comment on the Icon although I see they are starting to hype it up here in the UK but didn't bother reading the article as I have no interest in them. Sako in my opinion has dropped in quality since Beretta took them over and regard the 75 and 85 as Beretta designs and so have had nowt to do with them really apart from shooting a friends Finn-Lite which I must say I was not impressed by!

In my mind they are not as good as the old Hunter, Finn Bear, Vixen and A11's but then again I prefer older rifles as I really do feel they are better made than a lot of the new production stuff being pushed out now. But hey it's your money and your choice. For the foreseeable future I cannot see things getting better regardless what the politicians say the recession is getting worse not better. I can understand the money point and may be doing T/C's quality down but they don't interest me sorry!

[anweis]

Brithunter, i've been following your post for three years now, especially your fotos. I share your taste when it comes to aesthetics of long guns. Yes, i find the TC single shots butt ugly, but the Icons are bolt action with walnut stocks - have you noticed?

I am looking for something classical, of high quality, with nice wood and blue steel, for my young daughter. Something that will be with her long after i am gone.

[Brithunter]

Yes I saw the photos and I even know the guy who did the review, used to belong to the same club and shoot with him but that was some years back now before he became a gun writer. I suppose I might look one over if I see one in the shop like I did the Remington 710 not long after they hit our shores however it's unlikely my local shop with stock the T/C Icon but with the reps changing like I just heard about perhaps they will switch lines for stock only time will tell.

But in the meantime I am going to be selling my MH18 baikal single shot in 222 Rem and replacing it with an old BSA Hunter in either 22 Hornet of 222 Rem. The Hornet needs some TLC and restoring the 222 Rem is in better shape but nearly 3x the price of the Hornet and the Hornet is local so? My modern needs are served by several fine rifles and even a mediocre one so new I don't need to look for. Modern I mean :-

308 Brno/CZ ZKK 601
7x57 BSA CF2
270 BSA CF2
6.5x55 Mauser Obendorf M96 Slide Bolt
30-30 Medwell & Perritt Bolt action
8x57  Parker-Hale 1200 Super

   All of these were brought new except the 30-30 Medwell & Perritt but it looked new still.

   I do hope that the Icon turns out all you hope it to be and that your daughter is thrilled with it which I am sure she will be. I know if Dad had brought a rifle I would had been thrilled to bits.

[breeze15]

Haven't handled the Sako, but purchased an Icon sight unseen. Have only shot about 60 round's thru it. The rifle is just beautiful,, and I have shot a few 3 shot sub 1/2 inch groups. Am going to shoot some reloads this Sun. So far I am very Impresed!!!

[Brithunter]

Well reading a test in Shooting Times on the Icon I notice the price is £990 which is around $1782US!!!!!!

I would expect a superb shooter for that amount of money but it's way out of my budget now-a-days and at that price I doubt I will see any on the local shops rack.

[HogFan]

I handled an Icon about 6 weeks ago at the Gander Mountain in NLR. I think it was right at $900. A little pricey for my pockets at the current moment, but it had very good fit and finish on it, as well as one of the smoothest actions I have seen in a while. I might pay up to $800 for one, but over that, I'll just go custom for a little more. I've also handled Sako's, but to me the Icon seem to be a better product. Now on the range, that may be a totally different story.

[Brithunter]

Well I happen to think that the Sako quality has dropped since Beretta took over.

[beemanbeme]

Other than pictures, I haven't seen the Icon but considering the "extra" fit and finish they say they are commited to on the rifle, I would think it would be worth @$900.  Folks spend almost that much on a CDL and send it off to some smith to have it lapped and trued and tinkered with and end up with much more than that invested. Also, in the pictures, the wood shown was quite handsome. I have no quarrel with you moderns that like your SS and plastic but I prefer a rifle that looks like a real rifle.
Folks have long lamented the loss of quality and workmanship with modern rifles but when a company trys to provide that quality and workmanship they cry that it's too expensive and suggest a Savage.  Or now a Stevens.
If you want to take old trusty rusty out of the closet once or twice a year and go kill something, that's an excellent choice. But if you want something that may become an heirloom to be passed along to your grandkids, I'd suggest something with a little more substance than a rifle that looks like it was made by Mattel. 

[Brithunter]

Now that is a sentiment I can relate too  however at the price they have the Icon priced at I have quite a choice if I decide to go new and Remington 700 is not on that list as I don't like them at all! I also already have several rifles which could be passed down if I had someone to pass them on to that is. Have to admit I am sucker for nice wood though like this:-













  Just for example.

[Chris Potts]

I handled an Icon about 6 weeks ago at the Gander Mountain in NLR. I think it was right at $900. A little pricey for my pockets at the current moment, but it had very good fit and finish on it, as well as one of the smoothest actions I have seen in a while. I might pay up to $800 for one, but over that, I'll just go custom for a little more. I've also handled Sako's, but to me the Icon seem to be a better product. Now on the range, that may be a totally different story.

My experience with gander mountain has been that if they wanted $900 that you might be able to find it for $800 at your local gun shop if you have one.  It could just be a local thing but I have never felt that there prices reflected their increased purchasing power as a chain.  I also have never been overly impressed with their sales staff. 

Chris

[HogFan]

I handled an Icon about 6 weeks ago at the Gander Mountain in NLR. I think it was right at $900. A little pricey for my pockets at the current moment, but it had very good fit and finish on it, as well as one of the smoothest actions I have seen in a while. I might pay up to $800 for one, but over that, I'll just go custom for a little more. I've also handled Sako's, but to me the Icon seem to be a better product. Now on the range, that may be a totally different story.

My experience with gander mountain has been that if they wanted $900 that you might be able to find it for $800 at your local gun shop if you have one.  It could just be a local thing but I have never felt that there prices reflected their increased purchasing power as a chain.  I also have never been overly impressed with their sales staff. 

Chris

Chris,

 If Academy carries the same gun, then it can be had cheaper there. If it's not an economy gun, around here, all the gun shops like to over charge. I too am not to thrilled with Ganders staff, but I do like how the guns are in the open here and I don't have to ask someone if I can handle a gun. I won't be buying one from them unless it's my only option.

[oldelkhunter]

[Not having any experience with T/C products and personally thinking that the Contender is about the ugliest thing on the market I cannot really comment on the Icon although I see they are starting to hype it up here in the UK but didn't bother reading the article as I have no interest in them. Sako in my opinion has dropped in quality since Beretta took them over and regard the 75 and 85 as Beretta designs and so have had nowt to do with them really apart from shooting a friends Finn-Lite which I must say I was not impressed by!
/quote]


I  would have thought that Beretta would have dropped their quality but nonetheless it is simply not true. The 75 was designed by Sako long before Beretta took them over and to call them a Beretta design is simply not true. To compare a total piece of garbage like an ICON to a Sako of any sort is a real slap at Sako.
 

[Brithunter]

Oh dear I suggest you check again  as it was a Beretta designer who was responsible for the drastic plastic on them and if they designed the stock I would think they also had their sticky little fingers in the rest as well.

I don't mind taking a slap at Sako after all I don't have any just as I don't have any TC firearms.

[ccoker]

I have a 1959 Sako 243, a Tikka T3 lite stainless 308, and a Sako 85 Finnlight 270, my dad shoot a 66 Sako 22-250, my brother shoots a Tikka t3 lite 270WSM

they all shoot extremely well, 1/2 or less groups at 100 yards, great triggers, etc..

I would say the Tikka is a much better deal than a Sako but I just had to have the Sako 270 with it's fluted stainless barrel, it's sweet gun
all are reliable rifles

between an 85 and a 75, I like the magazine better on the 85 but 75s can be had for good deals right now

[jcn59]

I have a .30 TC Icon with a .760 test target - I haven't shot it yet, not sure if I will keep it because my Tikka t-3 Hunter .270 shoots better, is as nice, and it's 1.5" shorter.  The Icon is 44" long which is a little much for a short action .308 class rifle.  Both guns have similar features.   Those Tikkas are a real deal with their sub-inch guarantee & sub six hundred dollar price.

I had a Kimber 84  in 7mm-08 once (beautiful) but would only shoot 1 1/2" at 100 on a good day.

[Brithunter]

Now I wish the makers would come clean about those test targets  and tell what ammo was used and how the rifle was tested, in stock or on a test mount with out the stock. It would make them much more meaningful.

[nomosendero]

Now I wish the makers would come clean about those test targets  and tell what ammo was used and how the rifle was tested, in stock or on a test mount with out the stock. It would make them much more meaningful.

That is true, it certainly would. Also, that "test target", was it the only one fired or the best of 2 or 3. Another point, was it for sure fired with that gun, I have heard of some tricks there, sadly.

[jcn59]

The Icon people strive for under an inch at 100.  I suppose they are using Hornady ammo.  Don't know who else makes the .30 TC ammo.

The Tikka people guarantee an inch.  A friend has two Tikkas (Whitetails) and it routinely shoots well under an inch at 100 yards with several loads.  As I said, my Tikka routinely shoots under an inch (3 shot groups) at 100, with 3 different bullets so far. I'm impressed.

Finding the best loads is half the fun  of having a new rifle.

[oldelkhunter]

Oh dear I suggest you check again  as it was a Beretta designer who was responsible for the drastic plastic on them and if they designed the stock I would think they also had their sticky little fingers in the rest as well.

I don't mind taking a slap at Sako after all I don't have any just as I don't have any TC firearms.

Yes Dear, you miight want to check your sources. Beretta bought Sako in the year 2000 ..The 75 was introduced in 1997. Please get your facts straight.

[Brithunter]

Well it goes to show that you cannot rely upon articles in the Gun Magazines as they stated that a Beretta designer designed the stock and Beretta had input in the rifle itself. As it was some years back I no longer have the article as it was not interesting enough to keep. I remember the stock bit as I don't like plastic stocks.

  As for the Icon just read another gun test on it in Target Sports magazine and it's the usual advertising drivel  the rifle was in 308 and they managed a 3 shot group of 0.9" at 60 yards They carp on about the alloy bedding block although they raise a relevent question about having multiple recoil shoulders as getting three to seat at the same time requires super accurate machining  but one question springs to mind ............................ much is made of these glued in alloy bedding plates. Yet if the wood warping can distort a rifle action then an alloy plate will not offer much more resistance will it?

     Only time will tell on this one. I cannot help wondering if it's a solution looking for a problem as after all If ............................................ IF they used properly cured wood in the first place and not the kiln dried rubbish then warping is not a problem. Oh and seeing as how I have an antique (1897) rifle which came back from South Africa then spent years in Scotland before finding it's way south where I brought it and the stock and inletting are still perfect in fit just showing honest wear so it has suffered extrems of heat cold and damp and yet is fine. Surely it means that the old methods of curing wood are superior to the fast track Kiln dried methods employed today.

   Unless someone special orders one at the local shop I very much doubt I will see an Icon there on the shelf. They do stock Tikka and Sako and they sell well as does the RWS Titan and the CZ line. He no longer stocks Remingtons after he had the last ones that were incapable of anything like accuracy and that was the only shop I knew that actually stocked some Remington 700's. Oh both were 223's and of the heavy varmint style  .

[jcn59]

A stateside opinion of the Icon (or Kimber, or Dakota, Savage, or most Remingtons, or Montana, etc. ) is that while some are better than others, they are all made here in the USA.  We're kind of proud of that. 

I have owned CZs & one was a real tackdriver, less than a half inch at 100 yds. & a sporter weight besides.   I kept that one.   A .308 Mannlicher Schoenauer shot okay but not great.  A Browning that shot okay which I kept because of the beautiful wood.

I don't know a thing about British rifles except that years ago they made doubles for rich people.  Do they still make bolt actions in Great Britain?

Kiln dried, air dried, bedding blocks........who cares as long as the hunting rifles are light enough to carry......and will shoot into an inch or less at 100 yards?

[Guy Pike]

I would recommend going to the Simpsons Ltd site and picking out a Husqvarna in 6.5x55 Swede. I got my 1640 for $495 and it will be the last of my 35 guns to go if I am that desperate!

[Brithunter]

A stateside opinion of the Icon (or Kimber, or Dakota, Savage, or most Remingtons, or Montana, etc. ) is that while some are better than others, they are all made here in the USA.  We're kind of proud of that. 

I have owned CZs & one was a real tackdriver, less than a half inch at 100 yds. & a sporter weight besides.   I kept that one.   A .308 Mannlicher Schoenauer shot okay but not great.  A Browning that shot okay which I kept because of the beautiful wood.

I don't know a thing about British rifles except that years ago they made doubles for rich people.  Do they still make bolt actions in Great Britain?

Kiln dried, air dried, bedding blocks........who cares as long as the hunting rifles are light enough to carry......and will shoot into an inch or less at 100 yards?

Yes they do still make bolt actions in Britain and some of the most accurate ones in the world. Companies like RPA and Accuracy International to name two Unfortunately firms like BSA sadly fell victims to asset strippers and very poor management. Parker-Hale suffered the same asset stripping and then finally being brought and then closed down to avoid criminal proceedings by Modular Industries an American firm. Now as for who cares? well I do. An interesting point is that Colonel Wheelan didn't think much of lightweight rifles and claimed they didn't shoot as well as a normal weight rifles and he also stated that shooters and hunters should get fitter so that they could easily cope with the weight of a normal weight rifle.

   Although I have shot both RPA and AI rifles they tend to be aimed to the fashionable plastic crowd and I destest plastic stocks. RPA make a dedicated sporter on their action but I do not know if they offer wood or not. Perhaps it's something I should check on. RPA started out making target rifles and got into the sniping field and then the sporting market. There are also other makes but mainly there are single shot target rifles, Swing is a make which comes to mind, AI of course was the brain child of Malcome Cooper the 3x Olympic Gold medal winner in rifle shooting and his AW model was adopted by the British forces and other forces as well as thei sniper rifles. My model 1903 Schoenauer was not very accurate but it did have a very worn barrel and the chamber was out of round where it had been relined some time in the past however now it shoots very well with only limited load development that will continue once I get it finished with a new stock. The barrel is an original Steyr in 6.5x54MS and it even shoots the 120 grain Speer bullet well which I was told was not usual for the Mannlicher.

[jcn59]

I'd like to see some pics of those British rifles, and I bet other readers would too.    They don't seem to be advertised here.  Also, what sort of hunting do you do where you live? Any comments on your gun laws?  Perhaps a different post?

I remember the BSA rifles from when Herters used to market them here in the 1960s.

My .35 Whelen weighs about 9# thanks to a gorgeous piece of walnut.

[longwinters]

I have not seen any Icons in real life, only pics.  But I have had 8 Sako rifles.  Still have 4 of em and everyone will shoot multiple loads better than MOA.  Never found fault with their quality as everything looks and works like it should.  Course I never had a Remington, Weatherby or Browning that did not shoot up to expectations either so.......

Long

[Brithunter]

I'd like to see some pics of those British rifles, and I bet other readers would too.    They don't seem to be advertised here.  Also, what sort of hunting do you do where you live? Any comments on your gun laws?  Perhaps a different post?

I remember the BSA rifles from when Herters used to market them here in the 1960s.

My .35 Whelen weighs about 9# thanks to a gorgeous piece of walnut.

here is RPA's site address:-

 http://www.rpainternational.co.uk/

I have shot the Rangemaster 7.62 as Carl at the range has one and it's very accurate indeed but not my scene with all that drastic plastic.

and here is AI's:-

 http://www.accuracyinternational.com/
 
    Oh BSA only made the actions for the Herters U9 and only first or rough polished it for shipment in the white. Herters sourced the barrels and stocks sateside but it seems didn't apply a finish poliosh only blacking over BSA's finsh which is why BSA wholly made rifles of the same period have a much smoother and deeper blacking. The Herters U9 led to the BSA CF2 model of which I have two but I think the earlier Majestic was better. As for hunting that would be best covered in another thread but which forum to put it in?

Edit:- Looking through the forums it looks like Hunting and Shooting general discussion is about the best place for it as there are no forums of Europe and the UK.

[jro45]

I have a SAKO 75 in 375. I've had it for about 20 years. That rifle will shoot a 3/4 group at 150 yds. When I bought it  It cost me about $985.00 so a sako isn't cheap.

[finnlight]

I have a SAKO 75 in 375. I've had it for about 20 years. That rifle will shoot a 3/4 group at 150 yds. When I bought it  It cost me about $985.00 so a sako isn't cheap.

The Sako 75 only came out in 1997, so I would say you have a Sako AV, not a 75.