Author Topic: cryo-treatment  (Read 1110 times)

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Offline slickest

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cryo-treatment
« on: March 23, 2008, 07:50:05 AM »
Hey guys. when I'm done purchasing the the new gun i want to seen off the barrel and action to have it cryo treated right away. where would be the best/cheapest place to have it done and what am i looking at for prices?

Offline bigdaddytacp

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2008, 11:09:28 AM »
Hey guys. when I'm done purchasing the the new gun i want to seen off the barrel and action to have it cryo treated right away. where would be the best/cheapest place to have it done and what am i looking at for prices?

Don't know about "best/cheapest" but I had great service from "300 below" in Decatur ILL........their price was mainstream and turnaround was within the quoted time frame.....they did lose my money order....BUT...still did the action/bbl cyro and returned it to me and then asked for payment and lost money order paperwork......they thanked me for getting the replacement MO and were sorry for the problem......packed return bbl/action well and securely.......cryo seemed to make bbl smoother and easier cleaning...and bolt run in action was super slick for a factory action....hth..good luck and good shooting!!

Offline charles p

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2008, 02:00:17 PM »
Let us hear from you after you get your rifle back.  I don't see as much press about cryo treatments as I did a few years ago.  Same goes for moly. 

Offline torpedoman

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2008, 05:04:22 PM »
shoot the gun and find out what it does before the treatment and then after and see if there is a noticible difference. Some have claimed great results some have said no difference.
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Offline slickest

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2008, 11:42:10 AM »
thanks for the info guys. Will let you know when i receive the rifle

Offline slickest

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2008, 02:35:50 PM »
So do you guys think i should break in the barrel first before sending off for the cryo treatment or should I send it off right away before even shooting the rifle?

Offline torpedoman

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2008, 02:53:15 PM »
break it in, shoot it for group off the best rest you can get. then get it treated and see if it did any good as far as accuracy increase.
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2008, 05:10:34 PM »
You would be better off (and cheaper) to just bite the head off a live chicken and shake it's blood on the barrel while screaming "get accurate" at the top of your lungs.  The results will be just the same as the cryo and the turn around time will be shorter.  Larry
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Offline torpedoman

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2008, 06:05:21 PM »
You would be better off (and cheaper) to just bite the head off a live chicken and shake it's blood on the barrel while screaming "get accurate" at the top of your lungs.  The results will be just the same as the cryo and the turn around time will be shorter.  Larry
You may be right but the world will never be sure unless it is grouped before and after.
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2008, 07:03:28 PM »
We will never know even after before and after "groups" are shot.  Human nature has it that no one wants to admit to be taken by a scam, or anything else that gives the person less than expected results.  How many people do you know who buy a new car and two days later will tell you they bougut a piece of crap and wish they had never considered buying what they are now stuck with?  Not many, my guess is the groups will get "better" no matter what the real results are and more people will send in barrels for the magic it works.   Larry
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2008, 07:10:09 PM »
"Poop" isn't quite the term I used.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline Cement Man

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2008, 05:44:46 AM »
I would sure shoot a gun enough to know what I expected cyro-treating to improve on, before I sent it in.  My impression is that (perceived) results are generally inconsistent. 
Why "fix" something before you even know that is "broke"?  There are many, many guns that shoot superbly without cyro.
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Offline Ahab

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2008, 06:23:03 AM »
I would sure shoot a gun enough to know what I expected cyro-treating to improve on, before I sent it in.  My impression is that (perceived) results are generally inconsistent. 
Why "fix" something before you even know that is "broke"?  There are many, many guns that shoot superbly without cyro.

This is true, but cyro-treating is a proven stress relieving treatment that seems to work better on stainless barrels. Many of the benchrest crowd believe a stress relieved barrel vibrates in a more consistent manner. Probably not required for a hunting rifle but if it gives you more confidence and you got the bucks.......
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2008, 05:32:33 PM »
A lot of Bench Rest shooters think an accurate barrel can only be installed when the moon is full on a Tuesday afternoon in August by a gunsmith with one eye.  I have never seen any credable scientific study that shows that freezing a hunk of steel does anything other than making it cold for a while.  As many people seem to think it helps as think it is dodo.  I have never even seen a study that says it changes the resonate frequency of a barrel, that is one measurement that could be made absolutely.  Larry
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Offline Ahab

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2008, 08:38:48 AM »
A lot of Bench Rest shooters think an accurate barrel can only be installed when the moon is full on a Tuesday afternoon in August by a gunsmith with one eye.  I have never seen any credible scientific study that shows that freezing a hunk of steel does anything other than making it cold for a while.  As many people seem to think it helps as think it is dodo.  I have never even seen a study that says it changes the resonate frequency of a barrel, that is one measurement that could be made absolutely.  Larry

That's because you've never looked. There's hundred's if not thousands of credible scientific studies which document the cryo effect. NASA specifies the treatment for certain critical parts as do many aerospace manufactures. ;)
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Offline Cement Man

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2008, 09:12:54 AM »
I'm sure one can find opinions and studies on both sides of the issue.    I do think that Hart and Lilja make better than "hunting" barrels, and here is what they say...

HART FAQ's
 .... Does cryo-treating reduce stress in Hart Rifle Barrels?
 Cryo-treating steel has been in practice for many years to reduce stress in metal, and is very effective in some metals. The Crucible Specialties , Inc. 416R stainless steel we use to manufacture barrels is virtually unaffected by cryo-treating. Crucible's metallurgist have advised us that cryo-treating has no effect on 416R stainless steel. We have also independently tested several barrels and have been unable to detect any difference in the steel. We offer this service, as several of our customers believe in it and feel it gives them a competitive edge. The final choice is yours as to whether you feel this service is necessary.

LILJA FAQ's
 Q. What is your opinion of the deep cryogenic processing of barrels?
A. The cryogenic treating of barrels at a temperature of -300 degrees below zero has been a hot topic of discussion lately. Our short answer is that it will not harm your barrel but we are not completely convinced of all of the benefits claimed by some. The only benefits that we feel are likely to result from the treatment are possibly a longer barrel life and a slight increase in machinability.
Claims for increased accuracy through stress relief are not founded in our opinion. When barrels are button rifled no material is removed, it is just displaced. This causes stresses to be formed in the steel. If these stresses are not removed problems will result. These negative conditions include warping of the barrel during other machining operations, an increase in the bore diameter towards the muzzle end of the barrel during the contouring phase, and in the extreme, lengthwise splitting of the barrel. Also, if there are stresses remaining in the barrel they can be slowly released as a barrel warms up during firing. This causes the barrel to actually move during the course of shooting, causing inaccuracy.
In our testing we have found that the only effective means to completely remove the types of stresses introduced during rifling are with conventional heat treating using elevated temperatures. The -300 degree treatment alone will not remove these stresses. We have been told by a knowledgeable metallurgist that the deep cold treatment will, at best, remove up to 6% of the remaining stresses in the type of steel used for rifle barrels. The key words here are remaining stresses. In other words if the barrel was not stress relieved conventionally, then only 6% of the original stress will be removed. If the barrel has been treated conventionally with heat and then brought through the -300 degree cycle, up to 6% of any remaining stresses could be removed by the cold treatment. We do know through our testing that the cold treatment alone will not remove any significant amount of stress and that the problems outlined above concerning stress will remain in the barrel.
So, because of the very limited amount of stress that could be removed with the cold treatment (if the barrel has been properly stress relieved with heat as our barrels are) we do not believe that there can be much if any accuracy benefit to the -300 degree treatment of our barrels. It is for these reasons that we feel the cold process has very little potential for increasing the accuracy of our barrels. In our opinion, other than the removal of these stresses, there are no other mechanical factors involved that could benefit accuracy in a rifle barrel, resulting from a heat treating operation, either hot or cold.
For reasons not completely understood however there may be an increase in the wear resistance of the steel. This type of wear however does not contribute greatly to barrel erosion. We invite you to read our comments on this type of barrel wear in the question regarding the use of moly coated bullets.
Another possible side benefit to the freezing process is a slight increase in its machinability.
Post Script:  Since I originally wrote this an excellent article by Kevin Thomas of Sierra Bullets was printed in the September, 1998 issue of Precision Shooting magazine.  Mr. Thomas found, in a controlled test, that there was little benefit to deep freezing match grade barrels.  He could see no difference in accuracy but probably a slight increase in useful life.  I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to take a look at this article.
END OF QUOTES

My opinion is that I would shoot a barrel first before investing in cryo-treating.

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Offline Freezer

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Re: cryo-treatment
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2008, 05:21:07 AM »
    I've tried to avoid this post....but I'm weak :(  The cryo treatment MAY help a strict long distance bench rest shooter who is willing to put thousands of dollars into a rifle to get the last nano inch out of a custom built bench gun but I can't think of any hunter that needs it.  My advise:

1)  Bring the new toy home.  Don't open the box.  Don't look at it, don't fondle it. 

2)  Buy the best optics you can afford keeping in mind the TURE distances you'll be shooting so as to avoid too much power for you   
    closest shot.  Don't open the box either

3)  Take the rifle and scope to a gunsmith and have him clean the rifle inside and out, adjust the trigger, float the barrel and bed the
     action.  Have him mount the scope with the best base and rings you can afford and bore site it.

4)  Take the gun to the range and break it in the barrel correctly. 

5)  If you hand load work up you best hunting load and if you don't take the money you saved and buy some hand loading equipment.

    IMHO anything short of this or beyond this is a waste of money for a non-competitive long distance bench shooter.  A hunting rifle
    that has been professionally tuned should out shoot the vast majority of us.