fifty caliber light loads...

[kennisondan]

Hello handgunners .. I am interested in opinions about a lower recoiling fifty caliber loading and what kind of speed versus weight would still punch through a typical southern whitetail... close range of course... I was thnking of either the 350 gr. or the 420 grain range of cast bullet, and want the least recoil that I can acheive complete passthroughs on shoulders if necessary... no end to ends expected. 
I am guessing that at 900 or so either one would do the trick with grace, but am not sure as the .50 (like the JRH) is pretty wide in a wfn bullet design.. do not want it to stop just under the skin on either side LOL.  So if 900 will do it... will 750 fps do it ? do you think that at speeds below 900 that the trajectory will be useable up to and past fifty yards ? 
So :
How fast does a 350 wfn need to go to both penetrate and give some useable trajectory...aiming dead on at up to 50 yards to give within a couple of inches up or down..
How fast does a 420 grain wfn need to go ... (same criteria)
I am about to order up a few reloading components and am so curious... I will not have the option in the near future to use full house loads and mediums may be ok after a while.. but need to know about how nice the recoil can be with slower speeds and these bullets.
thanks to all.
dk

[scout34]

Here is a link to the single most useful article that I have found regarding bullet choice for those who hunt with cast bullets from handguns.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/index.htm

A lot depends upon bullet choice, but given the right bullet and bullet weight the answer is yes.

Hope this helps.

[kennisondan]

Scout : thanks that is a great reference..
dk

[S.B.]

As velocity lowers with such a large(heavy) bullet, trajectory begins to rainbow? The slower the speed the more the bullet  arch's, till it becomes a mortar effect.

[Graybeard]

One big problem with going to the ever increasingly large bores is that you need a lot more weight in the projectile to keep it from looking like a round ball. I think a pure lead round ball of .50" would weight about 200 grains give or take a few grains. So that's kind of the bottom line of bullet weight for the bore. When you leave behind the round ball shape and begin to look for a conical shape you have to begin adding a lot of weight for it to be long enough to properly stabilize properly with the normal twist rates and velocities you can expect.

A 325 in a .45 is a pretty short fat bullet really. It works fine but still when you look at one it's sorta like me short and fat. Some folks use the 325 and 370s in the .475" bore but again they really look short and fat. So to me that kinda sets the stage here for your .50 and to me anything less than a 370 just looks too danged short and fat. For the .475" I prefer bullets of 400-430 grains and while I've never owned a .50 handgun other than my muzzle loader .50 I'd want just a bit more weight in a .50 than in a .475. Yeah that's strictly a personal preference kinda thing.

But were it me looking and thinking of it in the manner you are here I'd call 400 an absolute minimum weight and would prefer a 420-440  instead. Velocity? Well I believe that 900-1000 fps would be plenty adequate and so likely would 800-850 so long as it stablizes in your gun at that velocity. I don't think trajectory will be that much of an issue given your plus or minus 2" out to 50 yards. Beyond that you're gonna need to know distance pretty close to precise as trajectory does begin to look a lot like a rainbow.

I have no first hand personal experience to fall back on here with a .50 handgun but would think that if you use a 420-440 grain bullet and push it to 850 fps or more you should easily enough get pass thrus on more or less broadside deer even with shoulder shots and that trajectory should be flat enough to 50 yards to not have to worry about it.

[corbanzo]

Well that short and fat is kind of comparatively.  To a rifle bullet yes, but for a handgun, a 325grainer in a .45colt is a pretty big chunk of lead.  You go up 50 more grains or so and you are filling the cylinder.  Even in my .454, a 395 grainer goes right out to the end of the cylinder. 

I have those 395 grain bullets going about 975, and they are some force to deal with, you could knock pretty much anything over with one of them.  I wouldn't hesitate to bring them down another 100 to 150fps and still used them on medium sized game. 

I have some 500 loads that use 400 and 300 grain bullets, they are more up around 1700-2000fps...  but can be loaded down of course.  The 300 grainers don't have that bad of accuracy, they aren't lead though, the are gold dot hp's, but still don't have too much length compared to a cast bullet of the same weight.  I am in agreement thought that a 400 grain bullet at lower speeds is still going to do you better for stability at speed and accuracy.

If you put the two in the same equation:

This is a 300 grain bullet from a .500 caliber at 800fps.

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0     800    -0.5     0           0      426    0
10   794    2.13    0.35      0.04    420   0
20   788    4.22    1.25      0.08    414   0
30   783    5.73    2.72      0.12    408   0
40   777    6.69    4.75      0.15   402    0 
50   772    7.06    7.36      0.19   397    0
60   766    6.85    10.56    0.23   391    0
70   761    6.04    14.35    0.27   386    0
80   756    4.64    18.74    0.31   381    0
90   751    2.63    23.73    0.35   376    0
100 746      0       29.35    0.39   371    0


Same thing with a 400 grainer

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0       800     -0.5     0           0   568   0
10     796     2.1      0.35   0.04  563   0
20     791     4.14    1.25   0.08  556   0 
30     787     5.63    2.71   0.12  550   0
40     783     6.56    4.73   0.15  545   0
50     779     6.91    7.32   0.19  539   0
60     775     6.7     10.48  0.23  533   0
70     772     5.91   14.22  0.27  529   0
80     768     4.53   18.54  0.31  524   0
90     764     2.56   23.46  0.35  518   0
100   760      0       28.97  0.39  513   0



For either bullet there is going to be compareable trajectory within 100 yards, now this is sighted in at 100 yards, and to improve your holding even more, and if you knew you were so limited, you could even sight in a 50 yards, and have pretty much the same hold at any range within 50. 

To easily see the energy, range, and trajectory, I used

www.handloads.com/calc

[S.B.]

I have some 500 loads that use 400 and 300 grain bullets, they are more up around 1700-2000fps...  but can be loaded down of course. 
If you put the two in the same equation:

What in the world  are you shooting these .500 caliber 400 grainers in to get the velocity this high? That handgun must kick like h***.

[Lloyd Smale]

A few guys here have hit on the problem. It sectional density. A 50 cal 400 grain bullet is not that great of a penetrator. Anything under that is probably poor and when you get to about 430 they improve alot. 450-500 is probably ideal. Now thats considering your bullet is a lfn or swc. If its a wfn you will need even more weight. A 440 lfn at 900 fps will probably shoot through anything up to a 1000 lbs. Now if your just talking white tail im sure a .50 round ball cast out of pure will probabaly shoot threw the ribcage.

[corbanzo]

I have some 500 loads that use 400 and 300 grain bullets, they are more up around 1700-2000fps...  but can be loaded down of course. 
If you put the two in the same equation:

What in the world  are you shooting these .500 caliber 400 grainers in to get the velocity this high? That handgun must kick like h***.

I should have specified!!  The 400 grain loads get UP TO around 1700fps, and the 300 grain loads get UP TO around 2000fps.    And yes, 400 grains at 1700fps gives some whack!

[Lloyd Smale]

One thing to keep in mind is at those speeds your flirting with bullet failure. especially with light bullets with a poor sectional density. Ive never seen a cast bullet shot a 1500 fps that was outpenetrated by one a 2000fps. Usually its the other way around. cast bullets take a giant leap at over 1500 fps. Everything is much more critical. Bullet design, size, lube, twist rate, barrel condition, alloy, powder burning rates ect. You really need to get all your *** in a bundle and have everyone of those things about perfect or your wasting your time and taking the chance of wounding animals even if you can get some semblance of accuracy out of your gun

[HHI 812]

At Veral's FAQ section, he answers some of your questions. I had a similar question for a recently acquired encore barrel, in 510 GNR. In its early development, I think Gary Reeder got 2 bison with this cartridge, with a 310 grain bullet, and I think it was like 900 fps? Veral has said, a 320 grain bullet is heavy in a 45 caliber, why wouldn't it still be heavy in a .50 cal? With his DV formula, it seems heavy weight bullets seem to have gone over board? Better to go with a milder load to hit where it should, than the heaviest bullet that will miss because of painful recoil. Have to admit, in my earlier, younger days, the fastest and heaviest bullets was the goal, but lately, the milder loads are so much more fun to shoot, and shot them more accurately at that!

[Scott T]

I shoot a 400gr WFN at 850-900 fps from my .500 Linebaugh and I cannot keep the bullet in a deer or a hog.  These bullets will penetrate better than a lot of folks think.i

[Redhawk1]

I am shooting a 370 gr. WFN hard cast bullets in one of my 500 Mags, I have taken deer, black bear and hogs with them. All pass through shots on all animals. The velocities of the bullets are 1700 fps. No bullet failure that I know of, no bullets exploding, one 50 cal hole in and a 50 cal hole out.

Lloyd, where do you come up with your information on bullet performance, I do not see that in the lower bullet weights I shoot in my 500 Mag.
I have different loads that I have shot and killed animals with velocities from 900 fps to 1700  fps with the same bullet and the same results, complete pass trough's.

I also us 440 gr. at different velocities with the same results on game.

370 gr. is my lighted bullet I would use in my 500 Mag, just my personal preferance.

[kennisondan]

I appreciate the help immensely ; got the 500jrh and am really happy with it, the balance and feel is like a much smaller gun than the short cyl. bfr would suggest it to be, and the grip turned out fantastic for my hand...
shot the factory rounds of 420 at 950fps and the recoil is really nice without any whip or snap at all... I will likely use the same recipe for loading the 370 cast and expect them to be really comfortable at a little over the 1050 mark and on whitetails and stumps and paper and cans will likely penetrate and leave a sufficient wound channel for recovery of them after the shot... LOL.... I would definitely consider a bit heavier longer bullet for elk or anything heavier or toothier than a hog, black bear or deer... but that opinion may change after some real world experience... I hope to shoot from quarter to quarter on a diagonal shot through the ham and out the shoulder on something this year with the lighter rounds, though It is beyond doubt that the heavier 420 adn 440 grainers will pass through anything I need including bigger stuff... they have a reputation for pass throughs on elk and bison with bones shattered at 950 fps, so that convinces me for the time being....
I did get some great information and experieince on this question ... thanks to all and ANY BODY ELSE ? send it on ... I can use all the help I can get...
I found that the big bullets did chip up my floating log quite a bit on initial range shooting; the 475 tore it up with full house loads ... the 500jrh gouged it right nice with playpen loads... and the new vaquero 45 colt with 265 gr. keiths in front of ten or eleven grains of unique was surprisingly nice to shoot with the birdhead grip and it tore the fool out of the old floating log.. and IT HIT TO POINT OF AIM PERFECTLY FOR MY GRIP AND EYES... 
I never doubted it for a minute..
I do acknowlege that the log could not tell the difference though it bobbed more from the slower rounds and chipped off more fist sized chunks with the faster loads .. if they did not zing through with just a hole and a bubble trail in the water... LOL
I love this stuff...additional scientific terminal performance results later when I can get back to the log... uh target range....dk

[Redhawk1]

kennisondan, welcome to the 500 Club..

[HHI 812]

kennisondan,
Do you cast your own bullets? When I tested the 2 factory loads in a BFR Jack ordered for himself, and sent me to try out, that faster load really was more than I care to play with, although Jack said it really thumped them bisons they shot. Wish I kept that octagon 500 JRH Jack made for me, but circumstances at the time made me sell it. Wonder if S&W will come out with a short frame .50 cal or BFR will offer the 500 JRH at a cheaper factory option? Keep us posted on your results!
Thanks,
Dennis

[Lloyd Smale]

redhawk i come up with it from testing ive done myself. before i preach anymore let me clarify one thing. If whitetail deer are all a guy is going to hunt with a 500 about any bullet will work. Our testing is more geared toward larger game. The penetration tests we do are severe test. We shoot through either cow or buffalo shoulder bones or knuckle bones and then into wet news print. The tests were mostly done with 512 dia. bullets not 501s. What weve found is that bullets that are at least 430 grain do much better then the light ones. A 440 at 1100 fps will outpenetrate a 380-400 grain bullet at about any speed. Another critical part of penetration is alloy. If a bulllet even rivits or expands in anyway it will drasticaly effect penetration.  We found that for the most part a guy needs a bullet cast out of at least ww and a #2 bullet does much better and a 5050 ww/lyno bullet is about optimum. If you doubt my sectional density theroy just shoot a 400 grain 475 and a 400 grain 500 bullet side by side at the same speed and cast out of the same alloy and youll find that the 475 bullet will do much better.  Longer medium to heavy bullets for caliber will allways outperform lighter bullets.  Again i gear my testing for the true big bores to animals bigger then deer. I have enough 44s and 45s for deer hunting an although i will use a big bore for deer i want my loads for those guns capable of taking the biggest animals i will hunt.  As to the speed thing. I watched my buddy one day shoot a  red stag with a 50 alaskan. Bullet was a 450 lfngc that i cast myself out of 5050 ww/lyno and was running about 1900 fps out of his gun. Neither bullet gave complete penetration. Both busted then near side shoulder and came to rest under the skin on the far side. Both showed defineate signs of mushrooming. Animal died but to me thats still a bullet failure. I want my big bores to punch through everytime. I would hate to think what woud have happened if that animal was a bigger meaner animal. Im sure what would have cured the problem would have been to back that load off to 1500 fps. Now if you combine a lighter bullet like your 380 at that speed the problem would have been even more prevelent.  It is a mistake to think that your just as well armed with a 500 shooting 350 grain bullets then you are with a 45 or 454 shooting 350s. Again like i said maybe for deer you will get away with it forever but if your hunting true big game its going to come back and bite you eventually.  In a gun used for dangerous game to me an optiimum load would be a medium to heavy (depending on the size of the game) bullet at no faster then 1400 fps if using cast of any alloy and personally id knock another 200 fps off that if it were my hunt. Even on deer it doesnt hurt to use these recipes. Your lighter faster may one time in five drop an animal faster but slow and heavy will work everytime.  A couple more advantages to heavier bullets is they allmost allways fly better at long range and when you slow down a cast bullet to realistic speeds its allmost always going to be easier to find an accurate load. Another advantage is felt recoil. Heavy slow loads will usually have less felt recoil then lighter faster loads and because your usually using less powder to get there you will have substantialy less muzzle blast. Ive tested hundreds of bullets and THE ONLY ONE ive seen penetrate better at over 1500 fps is kelly Shlepps brass punch bullets. You cant deform them unless you hit steel and they just seem to love velocity. If all i was ever going to hunt was whitetail deer with my 500s i would confidently go armed with a 350 at 900 fps but then i guess if all i was ever going to hunt was deer i would probably sell them and stick to a 44 mag as i could buy 4 nice 44s for what i have into one of these guns. To me using light bullets fast in them is no different then taking off hunting deer with a 06 loaded with 110 grain bullets at 3300fps. Sure it will do the job but what are you gaining.

I am shooting a 370 gr. WFN hard cast bullets in one of my 500 Mags, I have taken deer, black bear and hogs with them. All pass through shots on all animals. The velocities of the bullets are 1700 fps. No bullet failure that I know of, no bullets exploding, one 50 cal hole in and a 50 cal hole out.

Lloyd, where do you come up with your information on bullet performance, I do not see that in the lower bullet weights I shoot in my 500 Mag.
I have different loads that I have shot and killed animals with velocities from 900 fps to 1700  fps with the same bullet and the same results, complete pass trough's.

I also us 440 gr. at different velocities with the same results on game.

370 gr. is my lighted bullet I would use in my 500 Mag, just my personal preferance.

[Redhawk1]

Lloyd, I just don't use my 500 Mag for deer, I also hunt hogs and black bear with them. I don't see myself doing a DG hunt any time soon. That is why I can get away with 370 gr. hard cast bullets. The hard cast bullets I get are made from wheel weights.

I understand penetration very well, two bullets of equal weight but different diameters, going the same velocity, the smaller diameter bullet will surly out penetrate the larger diameter bullet. The smaller diameter bullet has less drag on the bullet as it is going through whatever medium you are using. That is why smaller diameter bullets will penetrate better at the same weight and speed.

With that said, I still like bigger holes. Using a 500 Mag on deer is no different than a guy using a shotgun with a slug, both give big holes.

If I was only deer hunt, I may drop down to a lighter round, such as my 480 Ruger, or my S&W 460 Mag or my 45 Colt, but that still does not take away from the fact I like the 500 Mag.

I do load larger bullets in my 500 Mag,440,  575 and 700 gr. But I feel the 440 gr. out of my 500 Mag will take anything on the North American Content.

[Scott T]

.500 Linebaugh 400gr WFN out of straight wheel weights at 830fps and the shot was taken at just about 70yds.

This Red Stag was completely penetrated.

 

[Redhawk1]

Way to go Scott..

[Scott T]

My good friend Dustin Linebaugh shot this bear at 176 yards with a 4 inch .475 Linebaugh and his loads only produced about 1000fps at that range.  But it sure killed the bear.  Three hits and three complete penetrations.





Boys, a lot of deer and bigger game were killed with rifles chambered for .44 Henry Flat, .38-40 and .44-40.  None of those calibers can approach what you can do with a 400gr piece of lead from a .500 Linebaugh.  Besides, these animals just don't read the balistics tables.

[Scott T]

Before I had my Linebaugh engraved, I shot some wet paper with it.  Those 830 fps loads would consistantly penetrate better than thirty inches of packed wet newsprint.  I have yet to have on stay in a deer or a hog.

 

Engraved, it does not shoot any better, but it sure looks good!

 

[Redhawk1]

Awesome gun you got there Scott.

[S.B.]

Scot, I see you belong to a blue lodge? I'm a llife member of Pontiac #294 and twice past master.
Steve

[Scott T]

I am a Mason, and current on my dues card, but I am not active in a lodge here.  My home lodge is about 200 miles away and I need a new home.  I was in the chairs when I had to relocate.  Something else I need to finish up.  God bless.