30-06 or 300 Win. mag

[Buckfever]

A great gunsmith on in his years told me that unless you want to shoot a 200 gr. bullet a 30-06 will have enough snort to make most any shot out to and somewhat beyond 400 yds.  He said that the 06 suffers from being the very popular caliber that people think they need something larger or different.  He also said that the recent changes in premium bullets and reloading powders have really brought out the potential in the caliber.  The 165gn. and 180 gr. bullets are right in the sweet spot.  The next thing got me thinking.  He said, " If the 300 magnums were common place and the 30-06 was just released it would seem to be a wonder cartridge, all this performance without the major recoil and potential flinching.  The best of both Worlds."  His take was pretty fresh and is neat to hear from a guy in the business and having many years of experience.  He followed up with this, " there aren't many places for people to practice at ranges beyond 200yds so they don't know what there rifle does at those ranges."  This gentleman made a lot of sense and did it in a way that didn't offend anyone.

Buckfever

[safetysheriff]

i think the man is on to something.   the power of today's .30-06 is a big step up from it's standard issue at the turn of last century when the cartridge was developed.    Alliant's recipe w/Reloder #19, a Federal case, a Federal 210 primer, and a Speer 165 grain bullet doing 2880 fps' with a 24" barrel tells me that the .30-06 is a great cartridge!    a boat-tailed hornady spirepoint would make that combo' even more interesting at long range.

ss'   

[Sweet 6.5]

 Hi

You can make the rabbit walk as slow as the tortoise but you
can never get your tortoise up to the rabbit's speed!

Sweet

PS : somebody needs to stir!;D

[kevthebassman]

The 'ought-six is a wonderful cartridge, and a great multi-purpose round.  Like the 45-70 and 30-30, it will be around for a long, long time to come.  It just saw it's 100th birthday, and if the politicians and soccer moms don't make things difficult, I'm 100% sure that it's 200th birthday will see it just as healthy and popular as it has ever been.

[Catfish]

With a -06 you can push a 165 gn. bullet to 2,800 fps giving you a max. point blank range of 330 yrds. With a .300 Weatherby mag. you can push that same bullet to 3,200 fps. giving you a max. point blank range of 370 yrds. Yes there is definitely an advantage for those shooting deer at over 330 yrds. How many of you have killed deer over 330 yrds.??

[Freezer]

    I'm not a Magnum fan but if you need it for moose or griz    If you hand load you can tame the Winnie to a tolerable recoil levels and still be able to reach out and touch someone with authority.  Both will be here in 100 years.

[beemanbeme]

I like my .300WM but I believe the old boy was spot on.  I like my 30-06 too.  That said, if you're hunting on the east side of the big river, you don't need either one.

[DalesCarpentry]

Hi

You can make the rabbit walk as slow as the tortoise but you
can never get your tortoise up to the rabbit's speed!

Sweet

PS : somebody needs to stir!;D

Like you said. You can always load a 300WM down to 30-06 levels but you can not load the 30-06 up to 300WM levels. Yes there is a place for both and both will be around a long time. Dale

[Foggy]

You don't need to load up or load down. You just  need to know how to shoot and what shot to  take.

[Coyote Hunter]

The first loads I developed for my .300 Win Mag were .308 Win equivalents.   I would never try to develop .300 Win Mag load equivalents for my .308 Win or .30-06.

Nothing wrong with the .30-06 and in fact i used mine to take two elk last fall.  I shoot 165's out of it and 400 yards is easy stuff.

[deltecs]

The 30-06 in modern loads equal the old factory loads of the .300 H&H.  That round had and has a good reputation on African plains game.  If both are equal and one effectively does the job, then the 06 must be just as effective.   One must also remember something.  Maximum pressure specs for the 06 are 50,000 CUP.  Maximum CUP for the .300 Win is 54,000.  The differences between the 2 rounds become much narrower in performance, when both are loaded to the same pressure.  That is not to take anything away from the .300, but do not discount the 06 for effective performance on the same type of game, at similar ranges, and plenty of energy for penetration. 

[corbanzo]

Within the stated 400 yards, I think it would be hard to make any discernible differences between the two.  Out past 400 yards, the couple hundred fps of difference could come into play trajectory wise, but not so much for energy. 

I do love the -06.  Just settled on making a new load using 168grn tipped TSXBT.  Got some RL 19 and 22 and some H414 I'm gonna try and put under it.  With RL-19, among others, the -06 really puts em out there.

[deltecs]

With a -06 you can push a 165 gn. bullet to 2,800 fps giving you a max. point blank range of 330 yrds. With a .300 Weatherby mag. you can push that same bullet to 3,200 fps. giving you a max. point blank range of 370 yrds. Yes there is definitely an advantage for those shooting deer at over 330 yrds. How many of you have killed deer over 330 yrds.??

It is not uncommon for hunting caribou, but I'd really like to see how accurate most hunters could accurately gauge the distance between 330 and 370 yds.  That is only a 40 yd difference way out there.  With no help from range finders, it is very difficult over certain terrain and lighting.  If the hunter cannot tell the difference between the 2 without assistance, the different bores make absolutely no difference in hitting the game at this range.  I agree with you that most hunting conditions take game inside 300 yds. 

[SHOOTALL]

the faster you start a bullet the faster it looses speed , speed is part of the energy equation , so in theory at some point the old slow to start 3006 will equal the 300 win mag if the same type bullet is fired from both at the same distant target !.Yes this point is probably past a usable range . The 06 will have a more arched trajectory but it will get there and do its job . The marksman may need to dope the shot more but then that's what makes a marksman vs. a shooter . I have both and like both . the 300 has a longer point blank aiming point and up close is better on things that bite in most cases .
that old guy knew the deal !

[Sweet 6.5]

the faster you start a bullet the faster it looses speed , speed is part of the energy equation , so in theory at some point the old slow to start 3006 will equal the 300 win mag if the same type bullet is fired from both at the same distant target !.

  Never knew this!

[dukkillr]

the faster you start a bullet the faster it looses speed , speed is part of the energy equation , so in theory at some point the old slow to start 3006 will equal the 300 win mag if the same type bullet is fired from both at the same distant target !.Yes this point is probably past a usable range . The 06 will have a more arched trajectory but it will get there and do its job . The marksman may need to dope the shot more but then that's what makes a marksman vs. a shooter . I have both and like both . the 300 has a longer point blank aiming point and up close is better on things that bite in most cases .
that old guy knew the deal !

I took differential physics and have two science degrees... I don't remember the equation you're speaking of.  Could you help me out with the equation you're talking about?  And I mean specifically the part where the two will reach equal energy despite one starting faster...

[deltecs]

the faster you start a bullet the faster it looses speed , speed is part of the energy equation , so in theory at some point the old slow to start 3006 will equal the 300 win mag if the same type bullet is fired from both at the same distant target !.Yes this point is probably past a usable range . The 06 will have a more arched trajectory but it will get there and do its job . The marksman may need to dope the shot more but then that's what makes a marksman vs. a shooter . I have both and like both . the 300 has a longer point blank aiming point and up close is better on things that bite in most cases .
that old guy knew the deal !

I took differential physics and have two science degrees... I don't remember the equation you're speaking of.  Could you help me out with the equation you're talking about?  And I mean specifically the part where the two will reach equal energy despite one starting faster...

Well, it appears from ballistics tables, that it in fact, does decelerate faster.  A .300 Weatherby Mag using a 180 grain Rem SP Corlokt at a muzzle velocity of 3200 fps will have a velocity at 1000 yards of 897 fps.  An identical bullet from an 06 with a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps will at 1000 yards have a velocity of 844 fps.  So, the 300 Wea at a muzzle velocity 400 fps faster will be within 60 fps of the '06 1,000 yard velocity.  So beyond that, it must follow somewhere that the 300 Wea at some further distance, must actually slow down below the '06 bullet.  One would think if a bullet starts at 400 fps faster, then at all ranges it would still be 400 fps faster, as aerodynamics work on identical bullets equally.  Such is not the case, when velocity is concerned.  Since the rate of deceleration is faster than the '06 with the 300 Wea, at some point the bullet must slow down so as to be below the velocity of the '06 bullet. 

[Maplicito]

Assuming all else is equal, the bullet that starts faster won't ever go slower than the bullet that started slower.  They will just continue to become closer and closer to each other in speed.  And to answer Dukkillr - they will both have the same energy when they both have no energy.  Sorry - that one was just too easy and obvious to pass up 

[deltecs]

Assuming all else is equal, the bullet that starts faster won't ever go slower than the bullet that started slower.  They will just continue to become closer and closer to each other in speed.  And to answer Dukkillr - they will both have the same energy when they both have no energy.  Sorry - that one was just too easy and obvious to pass up 

My ballistic tables go no further than 1,000 yards so was extrapolating deceleration speeds.  Your answer is actually correct upon more thought.  I must be tired tonight.

[dukkillr]

the faster you start a bullet the faster it looses speed , speed is part of the energy equation , so in theory at some point the old slow to start 3006 will equal the 300 win mag if the same type bullet is fired from both at the same distant target !.Yes this point is probably past a usable range . The 06 will have a more arched trajectory but it will get there and do its job . The marksman may need to dope the shot more but then that's what makes a marksman vs. a shooter . I have both and like both . the 300 has a longer point blank aiming point and up close is better on things that bite in most cases .
that old guy knew the deal !

I took differential physics and have two science degrees... I don't remember the equation you're speaking of.  Could you help me out with the equation you're talking about?  And I mean specifically the part where the two will reach equal energy despite one starting faster...

Well, it appears from ballistics tables, that it in fact, does decelerate faster.  A .300 Weatherby Mag using a 180 grain Rem SP Corlokt at a muzzle velocity of 3200 fps will have a velocity at 1000 yards of 897 fps.  An identical bullet from an 06 with a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps will at 1000 yards have a velocity of 844 fps.  So, the 300 Wea at a muzzle velocity 400 fps faster will be within 60 fps of the '06 1,000 yard velocity.  So beyond that, it must follow somewhere that the 300 Wea at some further distance, must actually slow down below the '06 bullet.  One would think if a bullet starts at 400 fps faster, then at all ranges it would still be 400 fps faster, as aerodynamics work on identical bullets equally.  Such is not the case, when velocity is concerned.  Since the rate of deceleration is faster than the '06 with the 300 Wea, at some point the bullet must slow down so as to be below the velocity of the '06 bullet. 

The 300 will lose speed faster because it starts faster and thus has more to lose, but they are curved graphs... the slope will be the same for the same bullet at the same speed.  Thus they will never equal each other, until, as pointed out by maplicito, they hit the dirt. 

[SHOOTALL]

check the reloading manuals , the father the target the closer they become . i didn't say i was an expert just offered what i have read . And i didn't say the 300 didn't have the edge it just looses some of it as distance to target is increased.
both would kill at 1000 yards as the 308 does and is 100 fps less than the 06 to start with . and that is father than most shoot at animals . I have and hunt with both and can say i have not had a bullet from either remain in the deer i have shot . and although no two deer or shots are the same , the damage by either has been consistent  in most cases over kill .
by the way congrats on your degrees !

[beemanbeme]

I think what is being said here is "at some point a .300WM becomes a 30-30". That is to say, the velocity and energy fall off to a point that it equals the velocity and energy of a 30-30.
Starting a165gr bullet from a .300WM at 3000fps and a 165gr bullet from a 30-06 at 2800fps, the 30-06 bullet would never catch up to the bullet from the mag.

[Coyote Hunter]

Gentlemen –

It is absolutely true that for a given bullet at useable speeds, the faster you start it the faster it loses velocity.  If we choose a .308” 165g Nosler AccuBond as an example and launch it at 2800fps and 3200fps, this is easily seen.  Let’s further assume, for trajectory purposes, that both loads are zeroed for Maximum Point Blank Range for a 6” diameter target (3” maximum rise):

Code: [Select]

Range    –  Delta  –  Delta  –  Delta
            FPS       FPE       Trajectory
=========================================
000yds  =   400       879        0.00”
100yds  =   382       787       -0.26”
200yds  =   367       711       +0.69”
300yds  =   352       705       +3.06”
400yds  =   338       631       +7.28”
500yds  =   326       503       +13.22”
1000yds =   232       241       +92.85”

The numbers above are from the perspective of the faster 3200fps bullet, relative to the slower bullet.  It is clear the faster bullet slows down faster initially, but if you compare them at equal velocities, they slow down at equal rates.  This, of course, occurs at much different ranges – in this case the faster bullet has a 220 yard advantage, at which range it matches the 2800fps of the slower bullet.

As has been pointed out, they only become equal when they hit the dirt, and the slower bullet will do that much sooner.

[PartsMan]

If you shot them both straight up the bullets would both reach terminal velocity before hitting the ground.
Other than that the mag will have the advantage.
Good luck hitting your chronograph.

The slower bullet can never go faster all things being the equal.

Out to 400yd the gains are hard to see in the field,
but why limit yourself to 400yd.

[deltecs]

If you shot them both straight up the bullets would both reach terminal velocity before hitting the ground.
Other than that the mag will have the advantage.
Good luck hitting your chronograph.

The slower bullet can never go faster all things being the equal.

Out to 400yd the gains are hard to see in the field,
but why limit yourself to 400yd.

I've got to ask then, is a .300 Savage sufficient for deer?  This question is similar to the same question asked of the .243 Win.  Will a deer hit every time in a vital area with a .300 Savage at 100 yards sufficient for a clean kill, no long runs after being hit, drop in its tracks kind of shot?

[lilabner]

Seems like this kind of discussion always gets into ballistics. That is OK, but bullet placement is probably more important and most shooters who are recoil sensitive will do better with a rifle they aren't afraid of. If you can shoot a magnum enough to get comfortable with your performance and confident about making a good shot, use a magnum. If a few shots starts you flinching, drop to a less powerful cartridge that you can shoot well for at least a box of shells at a time. Would you believe that there's a 30-06 load for the 165 gr. bullet that turns up 2938 fps? It has been around for many years. Flat enough for most shooting situations, especially if you can range the animal with a good range finder. The loading calls for 59 gr. 4350. It is a maximum load that must be approached with caution. My Springfield handles it OK but it could be too much for your rifle. Doggone it, we're talking ballistics again!

[PartsMan]

I've got to ask then, is a .300 Savage sufficient for deer?  This question is similar to the same question asked of the .243 Win.  Will a deer hit every time in a vital area with a .300 Savage at 100 yards sufficient for a clean kill, no long runs after being hit, drop in its tracks kind of shot?

No caliber will drop one all the time.

My first deer was shot through the heart with a .54 buffalo bullet at insanely close range.
He ran over 100yd.
A guy I work with shot a big buck 5 time with his 300wm "in the vitals" before he dropped.
On the other hand I have dropped them with my 30-30 336.
Also I dropped two this year with my 7mm-08. Both had spinal damage.

[SHOOTALL]

I have only seen a few deer shot with a 50 BMG round , it just might be the exception ! of course no meat is usable either , but for critter control !
and don't even start the noble deer stuff ! they cause more crop destruction than any other critter around here !

[Freezer]

    I have to agree with Lilabner,  I'm recoil sensitive.  After two shoulder surgeries I don't want a shoulder buster and will flinch at the thought of a mag.  That said my hand loads move a 165gr bullet in my Savage 99f at just shy of 2950fps and holds sub moa for the first three shots before it starts to open up for heating the barrel.  I'm also in agreement about shot placement.  I used a borrowed Savage 99f in 300 Savage two seasons ago to drop a nice 9 point at 281 yrds.  I knew what it's trajectory was so I took a neck shot.  Even if I had taken a chest shot with that 180 gr bullet I don't think it would have gone far.
    I don't own a mag and never will.  If it's so far away the my 308, 280 or 25-06 won't take it with confidence and authority....the stalk is on
    With that said I'm a hand loader and still believe the 30-06 is the most powerful cartridge MOST hunters need.

[deltecs]

I've got to ask then, is a .300 Savage sufficient for deer?  This question is similar to the same question asked of the .243 Win.  Will a deer hit every time in a vital area with a .300 Savage at 100 yards sufficient for a clean kill, no long runs after being hit, drop in its tracks kind of shot?

No caliber will drop one all the time.

My first deer was shot through the heart with a .54 buffalo bullet at insanely close range.
He ran over 100yd.
A guy I work with shot a big buck 5 time with his 300wm "in the vitals" before he dropped.
On the other hand I have dropped them with my 30-30 336.
Also I dropped two this year with my 7mm-08. Both had spinal damage.

My point was that over 400 yards, the .300 Win has ballistics slightly less the .300 Savage at 100 yards.  I don't know about you, but I think even on the most difficult hunts, I can stalk and hunt to within 400 yards for almost all game.  So any hunting conditions over 400 yards become moot, when talking about HUNTING.  If you want to target practice on game, as if you were a military sniper, so be it, but the hunter closes in on game and takes a clean killing shot.  The necessity for shooting any big game over 400 yards really doesn't exist for the sport hunter.  If you cannot get closer, then you should not take the shot and potentially wound the animal, which then suffers needlessly.  If you can hit a deer size animal at 500 yards from a moving boat, every time, every shot, in exactly the spot you are aiming at, then yes maybe you can be called a hunter.  But winds, differences in the animals movement just as you shot during the time of flight, put too many variables into a clean kill on game at that range, even with a .300 Win mag.