What's next? 700 grainers for 44 mag?

[Questor]

I'm starting to see 44 magnum bullets up to about 350 grains now. Why? Are we in the middle of some kind of recoil and penetration mania?

I propose that the hard cast 240 grainer is fine for almost anything you'd want to do with a 44. And that includes elk hunting and hunting big hogs.

Has your experience been that there is some advantage to the 300+ grainers? My experience with them is that they do indeed penetrate amazingly well, but that the extra penetration isn't necessary and that I don't really want or need the extra recoil of the heavier bullets.

Now for an expanding bullet, I can see adding a little more mass to the bullet and think that there may be some good use for an expanding 300 grainer so long as it penetrates reliably.

[kennisondan]

I am thinking that I may end up comparing light hollowpointed bullets at moderate velocity that are supposed to still expand to heavy really slow light recoiling bullets that will penetrate due to momentum ... and will not be shooting heavies really fast and pushing recoil up unless I get to go to africa or alaska or texas or something.. but here in La. I could actually kill my little deer with my single six or a blow gun ( almost )
my two cents.  I cannot handle big recoil right now anyway... but am not sure how to go with it.. sounds like a good reason to shoot more and more.

dk

[jhalcott]

  Didn't one of those big name gun guys go to Africa and shoot an elephant with some special 250 grain tungsten core bullets in a 44 mag?  Kelly or the guy from Super Vel, I think. It seems to me to be another marketing ploy. "My bullets are bigger than yours" Women keep saying size doesn't matter but NO ONE believes them!

[Graybeard]

I actually like the 300s for big heavy or thick skinned critters like say hogs, elk, moose, bear, etc over the lighter bullets. I'm not sure I see a need for more than that in the .429" bore size. if I need more weight I'll move to a larger bore as well.

I do have a Lyman mould to cast 325s but have not used it yet it's still minty fresh. Some day I might cast up some in it and see how they work but for the life of me I can't imagine what I'll ever actually need them for. The old now discontinued 429640 drops them at about 280 grains and I really like that bullet and it seems close to ideal to me.

[Lloyd Smale]

I use alot of 280-300 grain bullets in the 44 mags. The case has plenty of capasity to get them to usuable speeds even in a short barrel and theyve allways tended to give me better accuracy. To  me the limit with a 44 mag is about 320 but ive got no doubt that a well designed 350 would probably give even better penetration.  Another thing the heavys will usually do is fly better at long range. I do alot of rock shooting at very long distances and it matters to me that a  bullet flys well. Are these heavies needed on deer sized game. NO. but ive never seen where they hurt anything either.

[drdougrx]

Now Lloyd....I spect they put a world a hurt on anything they touch!!!  ;0)

[Catfish]

I`ve never shot any bullets heaver than 240 gn. in a .44 mag. Deer is the largest game I`ve ever taken with a .44 mag. and I have had excellent results with with 240 gn. JHP`s. For now I doubt that I will ever load anything heaver in the .44 mag. as I have a couple of .454`s and a .500 S&W if I need more, and I do have some 700 gn. bullets for the .500.

[Glanceblamm]

Good post's guy's and I have been all ears.

While I have been sticking with the 240gr in the .44 I have been wanting to try a heavier bullet weight. A 300gr at 900fps out of my short barrel .45 seems to be highly accurate and like a pleasant little pop-gun to shoot as compared to the sharper crack and quicker recoil of a 250gr in the 1,200fps range.

[corbanzo]

My bear thumpers are 320 grain WLNGC's.  They are a hoot out of my titanium 4"! 

For plinking I usually use 200grn rn's, but for animals it is either 300 or 320 grn cast.

I might look into loading some barnes... but I don't want it to take over my pistol loads like it has my rifle loads!

[Ak.Hiker]

I have done penetration tests on all weights from 180 up to 320 in the 44 Magnum. The heavy weights do have more recoil and in most cases I think the 240 to 250 is plenty good enough for most things that you can do with the 44 Magnum. I only shoot the heavy weights in my Super Blackhawk. To control recoil I have tried loading the 300 grain bullets down to 950 to 1000 and at that velocity recoil is reduced from the same weight bullets running at 1200. In the 45 Colt I have dropped down to the 255 grain Keith and the 265 LBT to reduce recoil from the 300 to 335 grain heavy weights. Maby as we get older and wiser we realise that some of the trade offs are not worth it. 

[Mikey]

AK Hiker - OK, so what did your penetration tests show?  You mentioned recoil but not the penetration of the various weight slugs you tested in the 44.  Mikey.

[Ak.Hiker]

Sorry I was pretty tired when I posted. Out of all of the heavy weight 44 Magnum loads I have tested the 305 grain Buffalo Bore was the penetration champ other than the old round nose 305 grain CorBon Penetrator when shooting through spruce logs. The 320 grain cast loads at top end were not to far behind. I have also found that the 250 Sierra Full Profile bullet running at 1200 were not to far behind those heavy weights. In logs the 300 grain loads at 950 or so did not penetrate as deep as the full power loads. In the 45 Colt the 335 cast running at 1050 to 1100 in my Blackhawk out penetrated the 265's. So did the 300 grain CorBon load with the Sierra bullet. The 255 grain Keith at 1300 in the 45 Colt also out penetrated the 265 and like the 250 in the 44 Magnum was not to far behind the heavyweights. The 265 grain load I was testing are at about 1200. Even though the top end heavy weight loads in both the 44 Magnum and the 45 Colt had a little more penetration in logs than the 250 to 265 grain loads I doubt that any thing I could shoot in North America could tell the difference. I think I could say the same thing for the 300 grain loads in either caliber at 950 or so. Other than the extra recoil on my end. In game I would think any of these loads would give all of the penetration I could need.   

[Mikey]

Ak.Hiker:  thanks, that's about what I would have expected, and pretty informative too.  Mikey.

[Questor]

I tried the Cast Performance 300 grain bullets loaded to about 1250fps and the penetration was phenomenal. They would go through a 12 inch creosoted log (retired utility pole). The 240 grainers would penetrate the log. 45ACP 200 grain SWCs would bounce off and land in the snow.

[teddy12b]

Sweet...  Where can I buy some 700gr bullets? 

The biggest I've ever fired out of a 44 mag were some 320gr Grizzley ammo.  I bought them just for giggles and to try something different. 

All my hand loads are 240gr. XTP jhp.  I've never taken big game with a 44 mag, but from what I've read I don't think I'd ever need anything bigger than a 44mag for anything.  They used to kill everything under the sun including the big bears with a 357mag right?

[45454]

Sweet...  Where can I buy some 700gr bullets? 

The biggest I've ever fired out of a 44 mag were some 320gr Grizzley ammo.  I bought them just for giggles and to try something different. 

All my hand loads are 240gr. XTP jhp.  I've never taken big game with a 44 mag, but from what I've read I don't think I'd ever need anything bigger than a 44mag for anything.  They used to kill everything under the sun including the big bears with a 357mag right?

Yes, and every year,those hogs and bears keeps getting tougher and harder to kill.
Some posts on the other forums....not necessarily GBO forums,to me are funny in a way.The posters starts
out with really light calibers.Others joins in,and from there, the calibers goes up.
Just read some of them.You'll see why some are funny.
My only mold is the 320gr JDJ.
You might want to try the 270gr Speer's. Next, are the 265gr Hornady's.
You have a good day.

[Greeenriver]

I used to use heavy bullets in nearly every caliber of handgun I shot, but truthfully, for several years now, the heaviest bullets I use for anything are 200grn cast bullets, and them only in 44 or 45 caliber guns.

Even for hunting, the deer I've shot can't tell the difference between being killed by a 200 grn bullet, or a 240 or 250 grn bullet. Dead is dead, and after the bullet goes clean through the deer, anything from then on is just waisted energy

Greeenriver

[teddy12b]

It's easy to get carried away with big calibers by reading the gun magazines and reading self proclaimed "expert" opinions on the internet.  Back when I was 22 I wanted to go elk hunting so bad and thought that I had a chance to go too, so I bought a 300 RUM because that's what all the magazine articles said I needed or at least that's what they were using.  Since then I wised up, hopefully, and now the biggest gun I have is a 30-06. 

Anymore I just try to get on the popular caliber bandwagon, use the popular bullet weights, use popular powder, and so on.  The stuff got popular some how, right?

[45454]

It's easy to get carried away with big calibers by reading the gun magazines and reading self proclaimed "expert" opinions on the internet.  Back when I was 22 I wanted to go elk hunting so bad and thought that I had a chance to go too, so I bought a 300 RUM because that's what all the magazine articles said I needed or at least that's what they were using.  Since then I wised up, hopefully, and now the biggest gun I have is a 30-06. 

Anymore I just try to get on the popular caliber bandwagon, use the popular bullet weights, use popular powder, and so on.  The stuff got popular some how, right?

Yep.
That good 'ole 30-06 will serve you well.
With the right bullet and placement,the 30-06 is pretty much a do-it-all rifle without punishing yourself.
Wished I had mine back.
But since then,I took up the 45-70.All of my loads are BP or the substitute powders.Comfortable to shoot.
You have a good day.

[Old Griz]

I know I don't need a 300-grainer for deer, however, I've discovered that the 300-gr Federal CastCore is so darn accurate out of one of my Bisleys that I hate to shoot anything else out of it. However, on the other hand, another Bisley loves Magtech 240-gr SP the best. Am I crazy for matching the ammo to the gun?

[mk454]

when it's all said and done i think that i've finally settled on my hunting pistols after trying dang near every big bore load out there and owning almost all of them. i've pretty much finally realized that the most important factor in all this is marksmanship.  sorry guys, the best advice i ever got was before my first rifle hunt.  i was shopping for a rifle and the old timer i was going hunting with sat me down after my attempts to buy a remington ultramag and castigated me until i promised to go with a .308 or a .06.  i did and have never regretted it.  so..........somewhere along the lines i was confused enough to realize that the top two primary calibers imho for handgun hunters are

1) 44 mag -- there's really nothing you can't kill with it.  many loads available, really, there's nothing a 500 smith is gonna put down that a .44 with a punch bullet or one of the 300 grains plus loads won't, nothing.  i don't care whether it's an elephant or a deer or mountain lion, there's nothing a .44 mag can't take with adequate bullets.

2) 454 casull -- if you choose to get good with it there's a trajectory difference that makes a difference beyond a hundred yards but this is only if you choose to get really really good with it.  if not, you'll always shoot a .44 mag better and in reality is a better choice.

3)  i'll give an honorable mention to the .480 ruger.  it's like a super .44 mag imho.  recoil is not bad, it'll do anything the 475 will do.

now...............to address this thread, to expand on my point above, there's very very little a good hardcast of 240-265 grains can't do that a 300grain will out of a .44. 

[Old Griz]

Amen!

[Redhawk1]

when it's all said and done i think that i've finally settled on my hunting pistols after trying dang near every big bore load out there and owning almost all of them. i've pretty much finally realized that the most important factor in all this is marksmanship.  sorry guys, the best advice i ever got was before my first rifle hunt.  i was shopping for a rifle and the old timer i was going hunting with sat me down after my attempts to buy a remington ultramag and castigated me until i promised to go with a .308 or a .06.  i did and have never regretted it.  so..........somewhere along the lines i was confused enough to realize that the top two primary calibers imho for handgun hunters are

1) 44 mag -- there's really nothing you can't kill with it.  many loads available, really, there's nothing a 500 smith is gonna put down that a .44 with a punch bullet or one of the 300 grains plus loads won't, nothing.  i don't care whether it's an elephant or a deer or mountain lion, there's nothing a .44 mag can't take with adequate bullets.

2) 454 casull -- if you choose to get good with it there's a trajectory difference that makes a difference beyond a hundred yards but this is only if you choose to get really really good with it.  if not, you'll always shoot a .44 mag better and in reality is a better choice.

3)  i'll give an honorable mention to the .480 ruger.  it's like a super .44 mag imho.  recoil is not bad, it'll do anything the 475 will do.

now...............to address this thread, to expand on my point above, there's very very little a good hardcast of 240-265 grains can't do that a 300grain will out of a .44. 

That is why we all have opinions, I like the 454 Casull, 480 Ruger, 460 Mag and 500 Mag.
Some of us like bigger bullets, personal choice. If the 44 Mag and 454 Casull is all you need that is great, but I like bigger.

If I was in a situation and had to stop something quick, I want more than the 44 Mag offers.

[SharonAnne]

  "if I was in a situation and had to stop something quickly, I want more than the 44 mag offers. "

  In that case, you want a rifle.

[teddy12b]

So far we've mostly talked about handguns, but I've got a puma 44 with a 20" barrel that handles Grizzly 320gr hard cast ammo with hardly a flattened primer.  My hunting buddy may be taking that gun and those bullets with him this year on a black bear hunt.  He's gonna shoot his regular hunting rifle and then the puma for the first time tomorrow, but it's an option for him.

When I take that little Puma out to the range I shoot steel plates and they get rocked.  I've been fortunate to shoot heavy plates and see what kind of a thud it makes when it hits and the 44 is very respectable from what I've seen.  Add a longer barrel and hard cast bullets, I just can't see what wouldn't go down from a good shot.

[Redhawk1]

  "if I was in a situation and had to stop something quickly, I want more than the 44 mag offers. "

  In that case, you want a rifle.

I certainly do not want to get into that debate again, but some times a rifle is not the most piratical firearm to have, such as in a tent, while fly fishing in a river and when you just don't have one with you.
I am a big time handgun hunter and I don't carry a rifle as a back up, so there for I use the biggest handgun available. After all we are in the handgun hunting forum.

I don't think a lot of rifle shooters understand the penetration and effective overall kill power of a handgun of proper caliber and proper bullet selection. I have kill a number of deer, hogs and black bear with my handguns, I have never recovered a single bullet, I use a hard cast bullet, and drive them a more than adequate velocity to penetrate the biggest game out there.

When I am handgun hunting, I never feel under gunned with any of my handguns. 454 Casull and up.
If I want to do long range hunting, I will use my rifles, but I prefer my handgun hunting with my big bore handguns.  In the right hands,a handgun (of proper caliber) is just as effective as a rifle for stopping power.

[mk454]

yeah redhawk it certainly wont' be a debate ending anytime soon, and i guess it's how one frames their experiences and comes out of learning experiences.  one side thinks that bigger would've worked better the other sees all big bore pistols working well and not much difference b/w them. 

i'm a big believer in a tight spot when something needs to be stopped it needs a CNS hit, not a bigger bullet.  i think we all agree that big bore pistols kill really really well and waaaaay out of proportion to their ft/lbs numbers would imply.  that said, i think we'd all agree a .416 rigby hits with a mighty wallup that no pistol will match.  that said, a .416 in the chest won't stop a bear and neither will a .500 smith.  however, a .44 mag to the cns will stop anything that walks.  240 grains at about 1250 fps has stopped just about anything that walks.

so let's sum up this little scenario.  you're fishing in alaska and you've got two young sons and a little daughter with you.  a big brownie charges across the stream at you.  this same size bear has not been stopped immediately in the past with several .375's and 416's to the chest.  what do you do, well i'm putting a .44 or .45 caliber hole dead on in the head and seeing as they're medium recoiling hardcasts i'm putting 2 or 3 in the head trying for b/w the eyes.  scenario #2 is at this time that you realize noooooooo handgun or rifle is gonna stop him unless you put the bullet in the brain.  you realize that you could not stop him with any firearm in the chest and you left your big 500 smith at camp cuz it's just toooo big to carry along with all the gear you gotta carry for your youngest daughter. the third worse scenario is that you've bought into the bigbore mania hook line and sinker and get your one or two max shots off with the big 500 linebaugh and you put them into the chest expecting the best b/c after all it's a .500 isn't it!!!!!  it's then you realize you had to hit the CNS or there's no guarantee of any stoppage and you should've paid more attention to the mark sullivan dvd's out despite the bravado present on them..........about that time the bear hit's you and starts munching and you die wondering what will become of your screaming kiddos after you're gone.


i've not shot cape buff yet, but i have shot american bison, a couple problem bulls for relatives that ranch over the years and hogs that went upwards of 500 lbs and to be honest, i've truly not seen a huge difference b/w any of the big pistol rounds when loaded appropriately.  that is to say, i think everyone is kidding themselves if they think there's any perceptible difference on game b/w a 420 gr 475 round at 1350fps and a 335 grain 45 caliber round at 1600fps.  i've not seen it yet.  the bison my friends have shot with rifles ran off and died the same as mine shot with pistol hardcasts whether it was my 454 or 475 or my bud's 500 smith.  now, being in west texas there sure is a trajectory difference and that's why i feel the king's out here are the 454 in a normal size packing pistol and the 460 for a larger gun size.  i've heard alot about how the 460 is a worthless round and to buy the 500 but anyone shooting out in west or south texas from a blind will tell you the 460 is vastly superior to the 500.

[Redhawk1]

mk454, I understand where you are coming from, but there is no guarantee with any shot you take in any of the situations you mentioned. Yes only a CNS shot will stop an all out charge. My whole point with my post was, people under estimate the power of a handgun of proper size. A lot of these handguns penetrate like you would not believe. And in order to get to the CNS you have to get good penetration.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the CNS is what needs to be hit, and no a bigger bullet is not the answer. But I like big holes in my animals I shoot. My choice is .50 caliber holes, if you like 44 Cal holes, by all means use what works for you.

Like I said, I am a handgun hunter, I take shots to put game down, I am not trying to play a tracking game on a wounded animal. Shot placement, proper bullet construction and the right caliber choice equals dead game.

[mk454]

actually i really really like 45 caliber holes, i just think .44 caliber holes are adequate as well.  i also like .475 caliber holes and .50 caliber holes.  :')  that said, with a .454 casull shown to penetrate well over 4 feet into an elephant after penetrating the skull i'm not sure what more needs to be shown to prove the adequacy of big bore pistol rounds, and in all seriousness, who would doubt the effects of a 500-700 grain hardcast from a 500 s&w.  that said, try taking that argument to accurate reloading and discussing it to guys that think they need a .600 caliber rifle to acceptably take a cape buffalo. 

anyway, my eyes were opened and my reliance on ft/lbs gone when i had totally bought the idea that 1000fpe were needed for deer and 1500fpe were needed for elk. i forget who said that but it was some "knowledgeable" gunwriter.  anyway, i was using "enough" gun and my cousin was using a .44 mag with some otc loads.  i got the elk to run over 100 yards after placing the 30.06 in the boiler room.  he dropped his elk nearly in it's tracks with the .44 mag with less than 1000fpe at the muzzle!  fpe do not tell the tale.  i'm more comfortable with my pistols to stop dangerous game as that is what i shoot the most. i'm just a better shot with them.

[Redhawk1]

mk454, I guess we agree on the effectiveness of handguns, at least the proper size handguns.

I have taken a lot of game with a 44 Mag, it was just I wanted more, that's why I went to the 454 Casull, 480 Ruger, 460 Mag and 500 Mag. Big holes and a lot of penetration. No one can argue with success in the field.