How about a minimum range?

[corbanzo]

With all of this super ultra mega magnums out there now a days, that is a lot of probability of meat loss.  With your mega rifle, what do you put your minimum range at?  Do you have one? 

If you own a rifle that is meant to drop something way out there, do you keep your shots way out there?  Seems like the right thing to do to me. 

No sense in rabbit hunting with a cannon.

[300S+W]

                        Well I can't remember ever shooting any rabbits with my .300 but I have shot one heck of alot of groundhogs(spring beef). I've shot deer within spitting distance(literarily)and from ridge to ridge. Just choose your bullet carefully,I have had a few that didn't work out, and there"ll be no problem.

                                                                                til later

[beemanbeme]

The fable of meat damage caused by magnum rifles has a basis of truth in that  it was brought about by misinformed shooters that selected a light for calibre bullet and drove it at some sort of boyhowdylookwhatIcando velocity.  This was further compounded by the mistaken idea that if they could get their little twinky bullets going fast enough their trajectory would be so flat they wouldn't have to allow for any bullet drop at distant targets. They invented the theory of "hydrostatic shock" which declared that any hit on an animal with a MAGNUM would explode it's heart. This lead to a lot of really gruesome looking carcasses and wounded animals.
At hypervelocity, a standard cup and core bullet just is not up to the task.  If it holds together until it hits the animal, it explodes on contact.  Making gaping wounds and destroying needless meat.  Some of the goobers thought this was a good things and had their pictures taken with beer cans in the holes blown in 100# deer. 
Things are better now with bonded bullets and a better understanding of what is needed when you want to drive a bullet at excessive speed. I don't understand it myself but then I wouldn't vote for Dale Earnhart for President neither. So what do I know.
I've never had the problem as I have always been a heavy for calibre kinda guy. I've shot 75# antelope with 7mags, .300winnies, .338's and, of course, mulies. I've shot them from hand shaking distance up to a couple of hundred yards.  And the holes were no different than say a .280 or a 30-06. I used 160's in the 7mag, 200's in the .300 and 225's in the .338. They were NP's or Grand Slams.  None of the bullets were traveling at a muzzle velocity over 3000fps. I believe, for hunting, if your bullet is going over 3000fps, you need a bigger bullet.  Makes no difference whether it's a 100# deer or a 1000# elk.

[Dave in WV]

Here in WV if the deer has powder burns we have braggin' rights.    My megablaster is a 30-06.

[corbanzo]

The fable of meat damage caused by magnum rifles has a basis of truth in that  it was brought about by misinformed shooters that selected a light for calibre bullet and drove it at some sort of boyhowdylookwhatIcando velocity.  This was further compounded by the mistaken idea that if they could get their little twinky bullets going fast enough their trajectory would be so flat they wouldn't have to allow for any bullet drop at distant targets. They invented the theory of "hydrostatic shock" which declared that any hit on an animal with a MAGNUM would explode it's heart. This lead to a lot of really gruesome looking carcasses and wounded animals.
At hypervelocity, a standard cup and core bullet just is not up to the task.  If it holds together until it hits the animal, it explodes on contact.  Making gaping wounds and destroying needless meat.  Some of the goobers thought this was a good things and had their pictures taken with beer cans in the holes blown in 100# deer. 
Things are better now with bonded bullets and a better understanding of what is needed when you want to drive a bullet at excessive speed. I don't understand it myself but then I wouldn't vote for Dale Earnhart for President neither. So what do I know.
I've never had the problem as I have always been a heavy for calibre kinda guy. I've shot 75# antelope with 7mags, .300winnies, .338's and, of course, mulies. I've shot them from hand shaking distance up to a couple of hundred yards.  And the holes were no different than say a .280 or a 30-06. I used 160's in the 7mag, 200's in the .300 and 225's in the .338. They were NP's or Grand Slams.  None of the bullets were traveling at a muzzle velocity over 3000fps. I believe, for hunting, if your bullet is going over 3000fps, you need a bigger bullet.  Makes no difference whether it's a 100# deer or a 1000# elk.

Yes, bullet selection is very important, no matter what the caliber, but it is the power behind the caliber what gives you the ability to mangle an animal.  I have wrecked some meat on caribou from a 30-06 using a 180grn np at about 70 yards, cause it was loaded pretty hot. 

Then when you start talking about your other 300 mags up from there... you can get to some pretty damn hot loads, even if they seem like big bullets for a 30 caliber.  You can push a 200grn bullet out of a 30-378 weatherby and make some really bad damage inside of 100 yards with all the energy that it is still packing.  The 200 grn bullet is pretty large for most 30 calibers.  I am saying that in the case of the 30-378, and others like it, it doesnt really matter the load, you are going to do damage. 

When I say magnum, super magnum, or whatever, I don't mean large caliber.  You can have a large caliber without a lot of power behind it.  I am talking about those guns which take your normal hunting bullet, and put a jet pack on it to get it waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy out there rrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeaaaaalllll fast.  And when using these cartridges, care must be taken to use them for their specified purpose.  If you are hunting at 70 yards all the time, why not use a 30-30 for everything? (example, I've never hunted with a 30-30...) 

[300S+W]

                        Bullet selection isn't just very important,its everything. You have to match the bullet with the velocity. If you place a bullet where there's edible meat(to me it's all edible) your going to have some damage but the correct bullet will keep it to a minimum.
                         The main do all load for my .300 here in WV is a 150gr Nosler Soild Base bullet at 3370 average fps. Can I make do with a different cartridge or with the same caliber at a lesser velocity? Sure but I'm a one rifle,one cartridge,one bullet,one load kind a guy.
                          If your not satisfied with the performance of your .30-06 load you'll have to try another approach. I can't advise you on any other bullet to try as you are already into the premium bullet realm but if your not satisfied,try you something you must.

                                                                               til later

[beemanbeme]

Until I started going out west to hunt, the furtherest I had ever shot a deer was 87 long steps. When I started elk hunting, I bought my first magnum. This was back before Ozone man invented the internet and chronies were beyond the reach of the common man so I did think I was getting a magic rifle. But the magic was I could fire a heavier ball at a better rate than with a 30-06.  The .300WM is superior to the '06 and the 7mag is superior to the .280 but neither are the lightning in a bottle the vendors would have you believe.

[Dixie Dude]

In my hunting club here, we used to run deer out with dogs.  One guy was covering a powerline with his 7mm Rem Mag.  He shot a running doe (about 125 lbs).  When we all got back and cleaned the animals.  I was helping and both hind quarters were like jelly and were ruined.  Don't know what size bullet he was using, but it was too much gun for a 50-75 yard shot.  A friend of mine has killed over 100 deer with a .44 mag Ruger carbine.  His longest shot was 190 yards.  He knew his rifle, and aimed about 1' high.  It was an 8 pointer and went down like it was hit by a Mack truck.  Big hole, slow bullet worked.  You really don't need a magnum for eastern white tail.  Now from the pictures I have seen that Nonya has posted, his 7mm mag works great on the wide open ranges of Montana.  Long shots, need accuracy and down range energy. 

[300S+W]

                       I guess the point I'm trying to make on this subject is not whether you need a high velocity cartridge or not but that if you do have one, and with todays vast no. of bullet choices ,you can make those cartridges work up close with a minimum amount of meat loss. I've been doing it for almost 30yrs. and not only with a "magnum".  Off the top of my head I can think of a couple examples,a .270 w/130 Speer sp @3112fps and a .25-06 w/115 Nosler partition @ 3200fps. I did have a 7mm Rem Mag for 4 yrs and used a max load of H4831 w/ a 140 Nosler Solid Base bullet which I had to switch to because back in the early 80's the 150 Rem Corlokts I was using would not expand enough,even at close range,they've changed them since. So this bullet thing can work both ways. I'm hear to tell ya now it can be done!

                                                                       til later

                                                                   

[Coyote Hunter]

Matching the bullet to the velocity is critical.  I’ve seen far more meat lost to a .243 Win and a Ballistic Tip than to my 7mm Rem Mag or .300 Win Mag.

To answer the question, no there is no ‘minimum range’ for my magnums.  But I don’t use bullets that can blow up, either.

[300S+W]

                                YOU TELL UM TONTO!  We ain't even getting into the Ballistic Tip thing. I had the first box of .308 cals around hear back in the late 80's. Shot one deer broadside through the brisket,one wasted front end. Never tried them again. In all fairness though they were beefed up later on but "ONCE BITTEN TWICE SHY".

                                                                      til later

[charles p]

Don't hunt with a magnum anymore.  With any rifle, the closer the shot (on deer) the closer I move toward its head.  I normally take neck shots under 100 yds.  No meat damage.

[300S+W]

                 What ya mean no meat damage!!  By GOD man, there's three good roasts in that neck.  Shoot 'em in the boiler room where you'll only lose a few good ribs.  Your right about ANY rifle (with the wrong bullet) being able to do excessive meat damage.

                                                                             til later

[victorcharlie]

Minimum range?  There have been times I could have used a bayonet!

[dukkillr]

With all of this super ultra mega magnums out there now a days, that is a lot of probability of meat loss.  With your mega rifle, what do you put your minimum range at?  Do you have one? 

If you own a rifle that is meant to drop something way out there, do you keep your shots way out there?  Seems like the right thing to do to me. 

No sense in rabbit hunting with a cannon.

This is the classicly ignorant argument by "magnum" haters.  The truth is I could put deer side by side shot with my .270 and 300WM and you couldn't tell the difference.  Actually I suspect with a slower expanding bullet the 300 would have less meat damage.  It seems to me that the 300 just blows right through them without imparting a great deal of energy (and thus tissue damage) on the target.  Don't get me wrong, the 300 isn't a great deer rifle, but don't listen to the drivel from those who just want to hate new things.

There is no minimum range, and hunting as an economical source of meat is a contradiction in terms anyway.

[300S+W]

                               "hunting as an economical source of meat is a contradiction of terms",I agree with this a far as the majority goes but there may be more in the minority than you think there are. And I am talking legal meat here.
                                No minimum range? You best believe there's no minimum range. I honestly had to take a step back to release an arrow at a doe that came too close during a drive.
                                 It really doesn't concern me what the other guy hunts with as long as it works for him and it's legal. It's taken me awhile to work out the wrinkles in how I hunt and in the equipment I use,but it works for me. You know the saying, if it ain't broke................

                                                          til later

[corbanzo]

There is no minimum range, and hunting as an economical source of meat is a contradiction in terms anyway.

I certainly beg to differ.  For you guys who take a week off work, drive all to hell and gone, and have somebody else process your meat, that is the truth.  But not everyone does that.

I have a $400 hunting rifle/scope, and only need one bullet to get 150-700lbs of meat depending on the animal I kill.  I have a meat grinder and good friends, which means I don't need to spend all that money.  I kill one small big game animal, I just paid for my rifle and more, I kill two, I just paid for all the camo I've ever bought and my boots. At three animals... I'm way ahead of the game. 

There is no way that hunting is going to pay for my shooting, that I know.  But the meat from a game animal costs me a LOT less than the means to take and process that animal. 

Where I live, If I kill a bear, I can sell the raw hide, I'm making money off the deal now.

I don't know how in the hell most of you do it.  But if your hunt costs more than that poundage of game animal would cost (even in beef) you have a serious flaw.

CHEAPO beef cost $3 a lb.  I kill one moose, even a small one and get $300 lbs of meat, that is $900 of the cheapest beef.  And what does your normal good steak cost?  $8/lb?  That is $2400!!  Hell even a caribou, with 150# of meat....

I mean, I guess if you are getting a small deer that only gives your 30# of meat, and taking all the time and money like above described you are losing out on the game... and traveling all over to go hunting... yeah, I see where you won't get your money back... 

And I guess it might be a regional thing... because where I live, subsistance is still very alive.

[Dixie Dude]

I raised 7 kids here in the southeast by deer hunting mostly, throw in some turkey, quail, rabbit, and squirrel.  Also fishing, and a back yard garden.  It can be done.  We also had a meat grinder and made our own hamburger, cube steak, and steaks from the deer.   With a one deer per day limit it was easy to get enough deer for a year.  Beef steak was a treat.  We subsided on deer. 

[WyoStillhunter]

Minimum range?...anything less than 42 inches away!...because that doesn't leave enough room to shoulder the gun.

My rifles and shotguns are all middle-of-the-road types: 12, 16, 20 ga. shotguns, .22 LR, .257 Robts., 35 Whelen, and leverguns in 30-30, 35 Rem. and 444 Marlin.

Shot placement matters but bullet explosion a la magnum velocities is not a problem.

[300S+W]

                      corbanzo and Dixie Dude, been there,done that, and still at it thank you! Still plenty of legal deer to be had here in WV although,with the kids gone,the wife and me don't need as many as I'm allowed anymore. Not everybody can be as lucky as we are as far as having an unlimited source of food close by. I'm sure that the large majority hunters know they'll never be able to justify the cost of the hunt in the amount of meat taken,but they enjoy the hunt,the outdoors,the comraderie(sp),the solitude,whatever so as far as I'm concerned they're just as lucky as we are and maybe even appreciate a little more!

                                                                                      til later

[Coyote Hunter]

I don't know how in the hell most of you do it.  But if your hunt costs more than that poundage of game animal would cost (even in beef) you have a serious flaw.
 

Well, maybe, but I certainly don’t see it that way.

Let’s start with doves.  The meat won’t even pay for the shells, let alone the gas.  Same thing with ducks and geese.  But the time I get to spend with friends is invaluable.

Antelope might come close to paying for itself, at least on those occasions when I can hunt from the house.  So far, however, I have had the meat professionally butchered at Steve’s in Arvada.  He does a MUCH better job than I do.

Deer are another animal I have never butchered.  All of the deer I have taken have been during elk hunts when I am 5 -6 hours from home.  They go to a processor near where we are hunting.  (Usually to Craig, CO,  or Baggs, WY.)

Elk are mixed bag – some I have processed at home but most go to the processors.  The problem once again is that I hunt elk 5-6 hours from home and it seems that I generally bag my elk before my hunting buddy gets his.  We tend to camp in open sage country where there are no trees to hang meat from or to provide shade.  Once the game is on the ground we try to get it to the processor as quickly as possible.

Last fall I spent $600 on processing fees and more than that for fuel, maintenance, food, etc.  Had I chosen to do the work myself the meat would have been days old before I got it home.  Instead every animal was at the processor’s within a couple hours of when it was shot.  The processing fees were worth every penny to preserve the meat quality.

Much of the meat was given away, some to charity, some to friends, and I still had to buy another freezer.  I could have purchased a lot more beef for a lot less money but I wouldn’t do it any differently.

[300S+W]

                               Yea,but are ya havin' fun Coyote Hunter?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                            til later

[NONYA]

My super duper magnums kill just as well at 50 yards as 500,you think someone should only take long shots with a magnum rilfe?When does any rifle create more wasted meat at any given range when you shoot them behind the shoulder?Are you making bacon of the ribs of your deer?You add in the value of the pleasure I get out of killing my own game and you could buy a whole herd of red angus for every critter I bag.That 38 inch buck in my Sig...35 yards,7mag,he didnt even get out of his bed,wasted meat off the ribcage of a mule deer....WHO CARES...having more rifle than you may need....WHO CARES....having that rifle when that 200 inch muley crests a ridge at 650 yards...PRICELESS.Just another pointless post to troll up some magnum owners who you can insult and flame at your leisure.I dont know why you got that chip on your shoulder that makes you hate us magnum shooters but I guarantee you it would take a magnum caliber to knock it off,I think its made of steel.

[Coyote Hunter]

                               Yea,but are ya havin' fun Coyote Hunter?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                            til later

When hunting isn't fun anymore it will be time to go fishing!!!! 

[300S+W]

                               BE COOL! NONYA BE COOL!           Don't let'em get to ya like that!  You do what you gotta do to GITTER DONE that all that counts.        You obviously enjoy what you do and how you do it,H**L,maybe the enjoy trolling that much.

                                                             til later

[victorcharlie]

I raise my own beef to eat.....it's cheaper than hunting.

I hunt because I enjoy the experience.

I also have 2 deer in the freezer and I always cut up deer myself.......I did have the calf processed because I couldn't handle a 1500 pound carcass.

Even a non magnum can ruin meat.  A friend complained about the large hole his .270 win made when he shot a deer at 20 yards with it.....

I handload for my .270 win.....still shoot the 130 grain bullets, but load it to a very comfortable and very accurate load some where around 2750 fps......which hasn't been that destructive.

I don't hate magnums.........owned a few......didn't enjoy the extra recoil......found out that for the type of hunting I do and the ranges I shoot game at the extra thump just isn't needed........run a bullet at a reasonable speed and the performance is more acceptable IMO.......

[NONYA]

Corbanzo has planer boards and down riggers on his trolling rig,must enjoy the hell out of it,just want to let him know a few of us know exactly what kind of game he plays.About once every other month he drops a line with some Magnum fan bait on it and then acts like Little Red Riding troll(oh my what did I do to deserve this) when the  big bad wolf (magnum owners) respond to his jabs,its gettin old.I got a question for ya Corbo,why are you so concerned about us magnum owners?What buisness is it of yours what we shoot,how far we shoot,how much meat we damage and how much we spend on hunting?You never stop bashing away at the magnum crowd so whats your beef?It has ZERO effect on you or your hunting so what gives?I think your only intrest in the topic is that you know it will ruffle feathers,thats it.

[SHOOTALL]

Bullet selection is almost the most important thing , it falls in right behind bullet placement ! The size of the case and amount of powder are of no importance if the first two are over looked !
a miss placed bullet is a miss placed bullet at " spitting " distance or 300 yards !

[corbanzo]

Corbanzo has planer boards and down riggers on his trolling rig,must enjoy the hell out of it,just want to let him know a few of us know exactly what kind of game he plays.About once every other month he drops a line with some Magnum fan bait on it and then acts like Little Red Riding troll(oh my what did I do to deserve this) when the  big bad wolf (magnum owners) respond to his jabs,its gettin old.I got a question for ya Corbo,why are you so concerned about us magnum owners?What buisness is it of yours what we shoot,how far we shoot,how much meat we damage and how much we spend on hunting?You never stop bashing away at the magnum crowd so whats your beef?It has ZERO effect on you or your hunting so what gives?I think your only intrest in the topic is that you know it will ruffle feathers,thats it.

I am a magnum owner.  I am not trying to separate me from anyone else.  I LOVE magnums, specially the super dupers.  I'm just saying that I've seen many people get closer with their big bangers, just cause they could, when it would be more responsible to take a shot from a little farther back.  If you are presented with a shot, it is close, and that is all you have, then yes, you take that shot, place it where it's going to work, and where your bullet isn't going to destroy much. 

My interest is in the responsibility of other hunters.  I don't care how much you spend on hunting.  Somebody else brought up price with the subsistance BS about subsistance not existing.  I've spent probably about $8,000 on hunting and shooting and outdoor gear in the last year alone, I know meat isn't going to pay for it.  I could give a CRAP less about how much you spend, what gun you use, or what you use it for.   

I just getting pissed off when I see people blowing off half a ham, or shooting something four times cause it still has an ounce of life, or taking a shoulder shot when they are well within range for a spine shot.  So am I ruffling some feathers?  I hope so.  But it has absolutely NOTHING to do with magnum owners.  The bigger the better.  I'm just trying to ruffle some IDIOTS feathers who are wasting the game that I prize pretty damn highly. 

Oh yeah, and go and find my other posts where I'm flaming and bashing on magnum owners, cause THEY DONT EXIST.  Where in my post did I say anything about it being bad to use a super mag?  Where in my history of the internet have I said that?  Maybe in your mind, but I like a little thing called REALITY.

[NONYA]

If a animal is shot in the ham the caliber isnt the problem,if they have to shoot it 4 times having to much gun obviously isnt the problem,there is nothing more sure to put game down than a shoulder shot and most game dont have enough meat on a front shoulder to call it wasting meat,the spine is a small target,the shoulder is huge in comparison.You shouldnt worry yourself with everyone elses choice of caliber,range,shot placement ect,its their choice and it really doesnt matter how they get it done as long as they arnt leaving wounded animals in the field.So me and a few other guys are having the same delusional episode?Now THAT is interesting.Quit bitchin about other peoples choices and you will probably lower your stress level you arnt going to change they way anyone hunts by posting about it on the net.I use super duper mags and Ill shoot game at 5 feet if thats the shot I get,if I blow bolth front shoulders completly off a deer it wouldnt bother me at all because there might be 1 .5 lb of usable meat on it and I want my game anchored.