Help Case head separation on Belted-mag!!!!

[PJ]

Why does this happen. :twisted: .?

I have a Win. Mod-70 .300Mag and I can only get 2 to 3 reloads before, I have head separations :cry: .I trimmed the "new" cases to 2.613" this is .007" below max case length.The loads are below Max per.- Speer manual and they are VERY ACCURATE.I just don't get it.Someone shine some lite on this please.

[todbartell]

Excessive headspace would be my guess.  This stresses the case above the web, and that is where they seperate.  This can be very dangerous, take your rifle to a good gunsmith ASAP to let him check it out.  You are getting good advice here.

[Muddyboots]

PJ,
Sounds like you are head spacing the "normal" way for belted mags which leads to premature case head separation after 2-3 rounds just like you are experiencing. Basically you are head spacing off the belt and not the shoulder. You need to head space off the shoulder just like you would for rimless cases. The total case length is not your problem causing separation. You are probably over sizing the case which is pushing the  shoulder back too far. Each time you do this, the expansion causes the web just above the belt to thin out which is the problem for separation. There a couple of things you can do to prevent this.

I resize using a Stoney Point headspace gauge to set my resizing dies. This gauge affixes to your caliper and allows you to measure your headspace fairly accurately. You then screw in your sizing die until sized cases shoulders are pushed back no more than 0.002-0.003. Takes a couple of measurements but no big deal. This is plenty for shoulder push back and I really like this distance for fail safe feeding during hunting situations. Makes all the difference in the world to know how far back to push the shoulder. Note than brass spring back is different for brass manufacturers so a Remington brass versus Winchester will yield different once fire case measurements. I reload usually at top of 300 Win Mag loads and get 5 reloads easily out of my brass. I suggest you consider purchasing the Stoney Point headspace gauges and their bullet comparator as well. For the money, you get accurate case resizing and accurate distance of bullet ogive to lands (which is the number one accuracy trick you can do bar none).

Otherwise, if full length resizing, screw in sizer until it just barely touches the shell holder so the press does not cam over. Size a case and try it back into your rifle. If the bolt closes easily without pressure, you will probably be OK but you will not get max life out of your brass this way. Or you can neck size and eliminate some of this problem but I have always gotten better accuracy from full length resizing in my belted mags. Plus I prefer absolute no head space problem concerns during my hunts. A full length resized with 0.002-0.003 shoulder pushback will always chamber reliably where a neck sized round can be finicky under certain situations. I like measuring and knowing where I am with brass so I have never been fond of the "old reliable" set the die up for cam over. I did this for far too many years and prefer knowing versus guessing. You just don't know where you are relative to your specific rifle head space measurement unless you measure it. Nice gizmo and really improves your knowledge on reloading.

Last, Brownells sells a case extractor made by Echo for most calibers. Just insert in like a normal round and your bolt pulls out the separated case and the "tool" at same time. Works incredibly well. I have them in all calibers for backup except the 300 which has been on back order for some time now. Work in Encores and Ruger No. 1's as well.

Anyway, suggest trying the Stoney Point gauges, I bet your reloading accuracy will improve along with case life. here is the link to the headspace gauges.

http://www.stoneypoint.com/headspace_index.html
Muddy

[Muddyboots]

PJ,
One last comment, the gauges will provide you measurements on your rifle headspace that should tell you if the chamber is excessive so either way they will help you get to bottom of problem. I agree with Tod that you should check with gunsmith if not sure or don't have enough experience to interpret the numbers. Headspace problem is nothing to mess with but I would still bet it is OK and it is simply over sizing of the brass.

[jdt48653]

pj,in cabelas new 2003 shooting catalog they show a special belted magnum resizing die that is suppose to solve that problem,and they say that during testing as many as 20 firings from a single case was achieved
its by  INNOVATIVE TECHNOLOGIES. page (7)order #xp-21-4932
cost 89.99
1-800-237-4444
catalog code # xp-720-2
fits most belted magnums.

[Florida Jim]

I agree with"MUDDY BOOTS", I use the Stoney point tool to set my resizing dies. With Belted calibers you need to headspace on the shoulder instead of the belt.
Saying that, I would have the rifle checked out, just for piece of mind considering the catastrophic possibilities of excessive head space.
Also I have reservations about the Innovative Technologies die. I would think that the continual working of the case just above the webb would contribute to case seperation. Once the case is fired it will form to the chamber minus a thousandth or two shrinkage. Regular dies tend to have a minimum effect on this area of the case. This should increase case life. I have been neck sizing my cases, and have had good luck. I get about five loads out of my pratice cases before I dispose them. I hunt with caces that have been fire formed then reloaded. After that I use them for pratice or load developement. I usually buy cases in lots of 500 to get the same lot.

Jim

[gunnut69]

The StoneyPoint equipment is very nice but unnecessary.  Simply insert the die into the press adjusted well short of the shell holder. Resize the case and try it in your rifle.  If it closes easily(don't force the case) lock the die in the press and reload.  If it doesn't close screw the die farther into the press and resizing the same case until the bolt will just close.  What this does is gradually reduce the case shoulder to case head length(this is the headspace measurement for a beltless case) until the case will just allow the bolt to close.  You will have then adjusted the sizer to headspace your rifle on the shoulder not the belt.  The cases will last much much longer and sometimes the accuracy is even improved.  Remember since dies are threaded at 14 threads to the inch and single turn of the die reduces the headspacing of the cartridge by about .071(71 thousandths).  Thus a 1/4 of a turn or even less is still a fairly large change in the needed dimension.  I usually go 1/8 or even less and lock my die at the point where the bolt closes on the sized case with little or no resistance.  If locking rings are properly used this need only be done once unless you load the same caliber for several rifles.

[Florida Jim]

Something I don't understand about Gunnut's reply.
If you have a new case, or a fired case from the same rifle, the case will chamber, and the bolt will close. How would you adjust the sizing die using gunnut's method?
If you take a fired case and intend to use it in the same rifle, use the "Stoney Point" head space tool measure the case, then set the die to reduce the shoulder about .001"-.002" this will give a very accurate die setting.
It is important  for accuracy and case life not to mix same caliber brass between different rifles.
I've recently gone to a Redding  Bushing neck die in my 7mm STW Bean field rifle, and am very impressed with it.

Jim

[gunnut69]

You don't need a measurement.  The case's boltface to shoulder measurement is reduced in small increments until the bolt closes with no resistance.  This means the case has been resized the minimum amount to allow free closing of the bolt.  This is typically a few thousandths of an inch.  It takes only a few minutes to do and provides all the benefits of using the StoneyPoint system without the time and expense.  The only advantage of the StoneyPoint system is if you reload for more than one rifle of the same caliber one doesn't have to reset for the rifle in question.  Although it takes such a small amount of time the guages still don't make really sense..  By the way this is the correct way to setup any die for any caliber.  Screwing the die into the press until the slack is removed from the linkage by contact with the shellholder relies on the accuracy of the die/shellholder.  The tolerances built into all manufactured products can get you into problems as they have with the belted rounds.  By the way the headspace of a belted case will have no effect on the life of the brass.  It measures the distance from the front of the belt relief cut in the chamber to the boltface..  The problem with case life is the boltface to shoulder measurement of the chamber, which is not measured by a headspace guage in this instance..  The same problem occurs with rimmed cartridges such as the 303 British and the fix is to simply size the brass no more than is needed to allow it to chamber..  You can spend the money for the tooling to measure these dimensions, I'd rather just adjust the dies correctly and spend the money of more components...  Of course each to his own devises!!

[chk]

I don't load for a belted mag but I set my resizing dies by smoking the neck of a fired case and then adjust the die out so it won't come close to touching the case shoulder. I then run the die back in a little at a time after resizing the smoked case noting how far down the neck the smoke is wiped off. I stop adjusting the die down when the smoke is wiped off the case just above the shoulder. Now the die is set for my chamber. Dave

[Robert]

Havent ever had a single problem with the non-belted brass.  I am not loading any belted stuff, but I would tend to agree with Gunnut...CHK has a good idea too. That's why I have a candle on my bench.  I am sure the other guys technique works also, but I usually do it 'old school', like Gun Nut does.

[gunnut69]

chj-- What you described is called partial sizing and is a valid techknique.  It resizes the case body and neck enough to allow easy chambering while not changing the case's headspace measurement.  It has the same problem as does necksizing in that brass as it is worked by the pressures of firing gets harder and less resiliant.  Eventually the cases will grow in the shoulder to casehead measurement and the bolt will become difficlut to close.  Of course it is then quite easy to simply allow the shoulder to be set back a bit, resetting that critical measurement..  One must take care when partial sizing some of the steeper shouldered rounds such as the 243 and collapsing the neck into the shoulder can happen if there is sufficient drag in the sizer die.  On rounds such as the 6mm Rem or the 220 this is a regular operation for me also..  I haven't used a neck sizer in years!

[chk]

gunnut, I've reloaded .243 ammo  for over 10 years using this method without a problem. It has always been my understanding you don't want to set the shoulder back. I did trim after resizing every time before I bought a X die for my .243. For rounds that have such a steep shoulder and tend to grow the X dies are the best thing going IMHO. Dave

[Florida Jim]

gunnut;
I used to adjust my dies the way you said. I've been reloading for more than thirty years. To me trying to set case length by "bolt feel" is very subjective and a hit or miss proposition. It is ok with a lot of rifles. An example that comes to mind for not using this method is my M1A, Head space is very critical with the floating firing pin and the slam fire problems. Before I was using the tool I would size the brass an extra few thousandths, which opened up my 600yd groups. My .308 Left hand Remington 700 Varmint has a noticeably larger chamber (within Remington's specs). I ended up with an extra rezizer die for the bolt gun.  If you want to squeeze the most out of an accurate rifle and don't want to neck size, I've found the stoney point tool is worth the cost, for the precision it gives to me. If you haven't tried one by all means try it, the best thing since sliced bread






:

[coug2wolfs]

PJ

Believe me Buddy, you ain't alone.  Years back I bought a set of Colt Sauers in 375 H&H. beautiful looking rifles with the reputation to go with them. Both rifles were brand new.  BOTH rifles firing FACTORY ammo, and BOTH cut the cases right in half!

There seems to be some confusion about headspace in rifles.  Let me say this, if the problem with EITHER of those rifles were headspace, I would not be here typing this, I would be long dead!

In my experience, the ONLY one who ever got close to doing it right was/is Weatherby. They seem to keep it down around .015 which is acceptable and will yield between 20 and 30 fires before you have to get concerned about the case.

You see, in the machining game, they rifle the barrel, then they cut the chamber. The reamers are cut long in front of the belt and the case stretches to fill the void.  As the boys have said here, DON'T push the shoulder back, it only worsens the problem.

I've asked a number of rifle builders about this. The common answer is "dropping your rounds in the dirt".  It seems they have this paranoia about some idjit dropping his ammo in the dirt and then it won't chamber.  They get an immeadiate black eye for that, whereas case stretch is not so obvious a problem unless, as in your case, it's just plain too far.

The guys with non magnums are kidding themselves if they think they aren't getting case stretch. Take a look at that shiny band just above the web of the case.  Guess what, same same.  It is possible to have excessive headspace and not suffer any ills.  So long as the firing pin is long enough to push the case forward and still punch the primer, the rifle will go off.

Pressure in a gun is some tremendous force.  Unless you have a chronograph you may THINK you know what's going on, but in reality, you really don't.  There are so many variables.

I load 6 grains under max in a Ruger No1 45-70, yet I get the top velocity with less powder.  How come?  For one, I use Fed 215 Mag primers under IMR 4198. Too, I engrave the bullet in the lands (on purpose) .008.

There are a lot of premium "high Energy" loads available in factory ammo these days.  Hornady puts out light mags and heavy mags in 308, 270, 30-06 and a host more. Federal is doing likewise.

In my guns, these loads are HOT!  I base that on the shiny ejector mark that is sheered off when the bolt is lifted, the cratered and flattened primer. I sure don't handload that hot.

While it sounds like a free ride, you will NOT get 300 Weatherby performance from a 30-06 with these high octane loads.  In my rifles, these high energy loads don't group for beans either.  I am doubtful that the extra half ton of energy does much damage in the foot of an animal, and in most cases that's where those high priced pills will end up.

I have been on a rip since National Fabrique bought up Winchester and Browning. Quality just keeps getting worse and worse.  These days (IMO) a man has got to be plumb crazy to go out and buy a new 300 WSM.  They used gun racks are full of them.

Why?  Either they got the dog snot beat out of them by the rifle, or, they flinch so bad they can't group 10 inches at a hundred yards off a bench.  Too, we have the long chamber group, the wonderful Browning A bolt ("Which Browning is aware of the problem.....) that flips the case 180 degrees IN THE CHAMBER, and creates one of the worst jams I have ever seen!

Unless you run the WSM rounds in a claw feed rig, forget it!  The rounds are too short and too fat to work in "regular" push feed actions.  The gun building boys took some serious shortcuts to save on tooling and we are going to pay the price for it.

Odd isn't it, that Kimber sees fit to build a SPECIFIC action length just for the WSM family.  Bet those will work. :wink:

I suggest you wrap up that rifle and send it back to Winchester. Tell them you want minimum chamber dimensions, and don't settle for anything less.  It CAN be fixed, whether they will do it right the second time remains to be seen.

Myself, I think we should all start sending these tury screwups back to the factory and tell them we are tired of second rate quality. Enough of us do it maybe they'll start doing it right the first time.

Most rifles these days cost at least a couple of weeks paychecks, why should we settle for 2nd rate merchandise?

Good luck with getting the rifle fixed.

[gunnut69]

Wow Coug!!!  That's some post but for some of it I must agree..  The large head belted cases (7mm RemMag-458 win) all use the same headspace guages..  The problem is simply poor tolerance management.  Usually we can live with the problem, as handloaders can adapt their techniques and those who use factory ammo generally have no problem as the brass will almost always stretch, once..  The problem with the Saurers is perplexing however.. They used a retracting lug bolt design and those I've delt with (2 and both 300 WinMags) were chambered a lot better than almost any other belted rifle I've experienced.  Excepting of course some custom built pieces.  Just adjust your handloading technique and there is no problem...
As to quality I really must agree it surely has taken a dive.  I had recently read that S&W had been bought back by gunfolks and was going to be run as it was longer ago.. I was thrilled and started saving for a new K-22...  Then I had occasion to work on a M60 trigger.  The pivot stud had broken..  Never saw one do that before.  Have seen them so worn it was unbelieveable but never broken.  The metal at the break sight was angular and looked to be chrystalized..  Stainless is difficult to work at times and I simply assumed this was a metal failure..  The weapon hadn't been used very much and there was almost no wearing present..  To make a long story short they charged me $129 to replace a defective part.  The "gunsmith" (and I use that term loosely) told me that these things just sometimes break...  That is bull!!!  The stud is supported on the off side by the side plate and they nearly never break,,at least in the chromoly weapons...  Just another indication of the erosion of the quality control is firearms today..  Amazingly I've work a couple of Taurus sopies of the S&W action and find them a better made weapon.  The design is close with coil springs repalcing the leaf springs from the Smith design.  I wish they had brought back the old S&W, they were an American institution..

[coug2wolfs]

gunnut69

We leave ourselves wide open to 3rd world trade. The little extra effort that it would take to make it right does not cost near as much as the hard feelings that occur when they don't.

One of my buddies on this board smoked me like a tuna about my comments on the Remingtons.  I was not speaking of the autoloaders as I do not trust ANY of them cept my old M14 that got me back from the "Sunny Country".

Remington is making some clean and trim rifles these days,IMO.  They shoot better than most of us can, and they are at a price we can still afford.

Now I'm surly not saying Remington is the berries across the board.  Myself, I think the RUM rounds will be short lived.  I say this because no one but Remington is chambering for it.  You buy the RUM you bought Remington, and that's all your gettin for ammo.  That in itself don't rile me since I happen to love the corelokt bullets.

The WSM rounds I think will be around longer, but I also think they will fade out.  Few reasons for this.  One, we have a "new" performance level in "old" actions that were in fact designed and built around the long action rounds in both conventional and magnum platforms.

They should have retooled, but that cost the corporate coffers $, so they jury rigged, and, in a lot of cases, it don't work.

We are viwed by much of society as screw loose if we are involved with guns, huinting, and shooting.  Sad, but fact.  To a degree, we ARE!

Some of the folks on here may not be old enough to remember the 264 Winchester Mag.  They did a sales job on that one.  A sure 500 yard deathray at the squeeze of the trigger!

The gun whores wrote it up in the usual luster, under 1 moa, PERFECT performance.  Anything hit fairly with the new whizz banger was killed in tracks.  Poppy Cock I say!

Well we bit, and we bit HARD!  In a short period of time the boys  discovered that all was not as rosy as the chumps who get paid to write tripe had spoken.  The REAL 3 to 4 inch groups opened up to 6 and 8 inches in as little as 500 rounds.  Discovery America!  The throats were burned out!  The 264 has maintained a solid reputation as a barrel burner, and still does.

Now, enough years have passed where we are dealing with a new generation or two, that was then, this is now....we shoulda forgot by now.  But some of us Ole farts don't forget a stickin.

Anybody see where this is leadin yet?  Hello WSM.  I believe we are going to see short lived barrels on these critters as well. only stands to reason.  Do a stare and compare with the 264 and see what ya'll think.

Just the fact that Browning is ooooohing and aaaaaahhhhhing about it scares the livin begeez outa me.  "The Best There Is"  Well that's this year anyway, next year we'll dump what we have that works for some design that plain flopped and claim THAT is now the best there is.  John Browning must surely be turning over in his grave!

Corporate is getting away with it simply because WE let them.  I telll ya man, send the sucker back, and keep sending it back until it meets YOUR expectations.  To Hell with what Corporate thinks, they're clearly in it just for the $.

The buck has to stop someplace, and it has to be us that stops it.  I have vowed not to buy another gun of any sorts unless it passes 100% of my required criteria.  Hint Browning, that covers the buttplate being closer fit than 1/4 inch!  That ALSO means that when I pull the bolt back on one of your crappy jap bolt guns I expect 1) an empty to come out, and when I push it forward, I expect a round to go in the chamber.  

Now I ask you, am I being unreasonable in asking for that in a $700 NEW rifle that's supposed to be "The Best There Is".

Really LOOK at what we're buying, look close.  You do, and you'll put most of em right back on the rack!

[jdt48653]

its good to know i might have the only good 264 in existence!and more amazing its a winchester! actually i have two.my old pre64 has about 1,100 rounds of shooting,it shoots about 1" at a hundred yards.throat
erosion is not a problem.my new win#70 has about 600 rounds through it
and it shoots under 1"at a hundred yards. my old #70 has a 26'' barrel
and my new one has a 32'' barrel by hart.both have nikon scopes.
i never have let my barrels get hot,and cleaned them proper.both rifles are capable of tighter moa`s with a better shot then myself!

[coug2wolfs]

jdt48653

Glad to hear you have a couple that work!  Don't believe you can count the 32 inch Hart bbl jobber as a stock Winchester, and too, the original 264 was from the "old" vintage  :?

I never owned a 264, though I thought on it till I was sick. Just never happened.

I get a bit nervous making general statements about guns because somebody always has what I'm screamin about and joints get out of place. But I always speak my peace and deal with the repercussions as they come.

The used gun racks are filling up with used Browning WSM bolt guns.  Hmmm, seems we have a bit of a problem here, and what really puts me over the edge is WE get to eat the loss when we dump the gun.  That just isn't right.  There oughta be a lemon law for guns just like cars IMO.

[jdt48653]

coug2wolfs,
i am glad that you say it the way you see it.
i guess the guys who write the features in gun magazines need to keep their jobs so they jump on the band wagon every chance they get.
and the manufactors need new blood when sales sag so out comes another new round.this year its short and fat?,whats next?
i keep hoping that someone will perfect the armys old invention,remember when they came out with a cartridge that was entirley
made of gunpowder,with lead stuck on the end! no brass !!they scraped it because it wouldnt work in automatics,i think that would make or break headspace problems! and a few years back they condemded any cartridge
that was overbore,now the market is flooded with them.and they praise them.the reason i picked the 6.5 is the  sd and bc with the 140 gr bullets
with the long barrel the overbore goes away.

[coug2wolfs]

jdt48653

I hate to see us gun nuts get taken for a ride. After all, we're consumers, and at that, I feel we are entitled to quailty merchandise at a fair price.

That's the neat thing with these boards, anyone can get REAL info, from REAL people, who aren't getting paid a red cent for their reports on something, be it good or bad.

IMO, for the money, Ruger makes a good gun, Remington I think has come far, and I have praised Marlin for many a year as they build a darn good lever at a price the working man can swing.

Interesting, all 3 are AMERICAN companies.  National Fabrique ( owners of Winchester and Browning) of course is NOT American.  I wish those guys would go home and screw up their own guns.

I understand your point about the 6.5, matter of fact, one of these days I might just latch on to that 260 that Kimber puts out.  My shoulder is loving those smaller rounds these days  :wink:

[jhm]

coug :  You mean you arnt getting a check from GB well you need to have a talk with him, our royalties check is here on the 32 of every month, yes and it is great not to have to answer to any one on your opinion but yourself.   JIM

[coug2wolfs]

OK Gray Bearded One, ya done been sold out!  Send my "royalties" check retro active back to day one :wink:

jhm

Yah, but we DO have to answer for our opinions. No matter what we jump up an down about, ya gotta figger somebody has one or two or ten of em.  Bashin another man's gun is about like bashing his woman, yer bound to get into a scuffle, lessen of course he TOO agrees she's butt ugly!  :grin:

Kinda the same thing with cals.  One chap kills em all stone dead with a 270, another with an -06, still another with a 308 or 7mm-08.  Truth be known, with the same hit done by any of em in the boiler room, well, it's a parcel of meat in the freezer.  I don't think the shootee is less deader and could give a hoot which critter blaster done him in :lol:


I got 4 rifles at the moment, and being honest, that's 3 more than I NEED.  But dagnabit, I do like the little Kimbers, and they sho are pretty guns