Author Topic: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation  (Read 3014 times)

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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This is a continuation of our conversations on measuring instruments, old and new, and principles of operation from the thread "angle for mortar" http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=134613.0 .

We're talking about measuring the angle of inclination (from horizontal) of the axis of the tube.

Using a "gunner's quadrant" (dates off topic, but principles ON topic) of vintages of WWI and  WWII.

Angles are in MILS (one L) which divide the circle into 6,400 mils (360 degrees).

The French used degrees (if I remember correctly) and we found those to be far too coarse and use MILS instead.  (I don't remember the derivation of MILS.)

I'll post some pictures of the quadrant I have, to discuss the features of how the measurements were taken.  Folks having comparable instruments of earlier vintage are welcomed to post pictures for comparison.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline phalanx

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2008, 04:33:22 PM »
Thanks Cat Whisper :
This is interesting ,and i felt i was hijacking a thread ,sort of.
Its funny how i have never seen this device mentioned on any other site.
Not to mention anyone who could use it.
Lots of other things are in that box ,i will run them by you later ,but one at a time.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline Victor3

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2008, 09:41:12 PM »
 I don't have the real deal, but I have played around with one of these for this purpose...

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00939840000P?keyword=angle+indicator

 Cheap tool to experiment with if one is so "inclined".


 Mils is short for milliradians. From Wiki:

 "The milliradian (0.001 rad, or 1 mrad) is used in gunnery and targeting, because it corresponds to an error of 1 m at a range of 1000 m"
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2008, 01:19:32 AM »
Phalanx -

It would be VERY interesting to see the other 'toys' from the box.

Victor -

That's exactly (except maybe for the brand) what I use most of the time.

One side has a magnet one does not; and I think both sides have a groove which helps line it up on the tube.

It's easy to read too.  I also use a carpenter's tri-square that has a smaller one built in.  The tri-sqaure can be used when the tube is tapered and you place the blade inside the bore to align it to the axis of the bore.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2008, 01:58:16 AM »
A subject I've not really thought of in a month of Sundays really but it does remind me that once long ago in a place not so far away I had the task of refurbishing Gunner's Quadrants and returning them to active duty for the Army at Anniston Army Depot. That was a job I did for a few months back in the fairly early days of my employment there. I'd guess it was perhaps about late '66 or maybe '67. I'd really not thought much of them since moving on to other chores until I saw this thread.


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Offline Evil Dog

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2008, 02:57:19 AM »
The same as Victor 3.... I've used one of those magnetic protractors with my mortar for quite some time.  Just put it on the muzzle and adjust for the desired angle, really does work great.  Just make sure to remove it before firing.  Nowhere near period and won't use it at any event where authenticity is desired.  Haven't used with cannon at all though as use a different sighting system with that... a brass pin for a front sight and the rear sight from an '03 Springfield rifle.
Evil Dog

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Freedom is a well-armed lamb contesting that vote. - Benjamin Franklin (1759)

Offline phalanx

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2008, 03:54:31 AM »
I guess the ones Cat and myself own are the later ones.
Its hard to find a lot about the ones used in the Civil War, i found some text,but i only found one photo and a few drawings.
It seems the ones used then had a wooden block you slid into the muzzle  , the gage with the measurements for level would hang down the front from the block ,looking like a fan turned upside down.
A pendulum  would swing back and forth as the indicator.
Man could you imagine what one of those being original ,in good condition would be worth ?
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline jeeper1

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2008, 07:14:37 AM »
Victor3 wrote
Quote
I don't have the real deal, but I have played around with one of these for this purpose...

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00939840000P?keyword=angle+indicator

 Cheap tool to experiment with if one is so "inclined".
Interesting, I have a couple of Harbor Freights angle finders

that I used to set the angle of my mortar tube when I built the base. Never thought about using it for shooting.
I may not be completely sane, but at least I don't think I have the power to influence the weather.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2008, 12:23:16 PM »
A subject I've not really thought of in a month of Sundays really but it does remind me that once long ago in a place not so far away I had the task of refurbishing Gunner's Quadrants and returning them to active duty for the Army at Anniston Army Depot. That was a job I did for a few months back in the fairly early days of my employment there. I'd guess it was perhaps about late '66 or maybe '67. I'd really not thought much of them since moving on to other chores until I saw this thread.

Any recollection as to the accuracy/calibration of the instrument?  plus or minus one or several mils?

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline phalanx

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2008, 01:56:49 PM »
Cat :
Not to get ahead of ourselves here , but the Calipers as far as OD have these little metal dowels, made up of an exact, different lengths.
ID , caliper has only one and it looks like a ,,C...
The Calipers have Micrometer type adjustments and a set knob.
I wonder if these rods and the ,C, were for calibration.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2008, 07:01:02 PM »
A subject I've not really thought of in a month of Sundays really but it does remind me that once long ago in a place not so far away I had the task of refurbishing Gunner's Quadrants and returning them to active duty for the Army at Anniston Army Depot. That was a job I did for a few months back in the fairly early days of my employment there. I'd guess it was perhaps about late '66 or maybe '67. I'd really not thought much of them since moving on to other chores until I saw this thread.

Any recollection as to the accuracy/calibration of the instrument?  plus or minus one or several mils?



Sorry Tim that really was a LOOOONG time ago and I honestly do not recall the specifications we built them to. I do not think that it was multiple mils tho and likely one or less but don't try to hold me to that as I just plain can't remember that fine a detail from so long ago.

The way it worked on them I did the repair work and another journeyman did the testing and calibration otherwise had I done that part of the job as well I might better remember. We totally disassembled them into component parts cleaned the frame in a walnut hull blasting machine and repainted the frame. The feet were refinished and put back on along with all the various other parts after they had been refinished to new specifications. Then after I did the final assembly a journeyman senior to me did the final testing and adjustments. At that time I was a trades helper in the fire control shop working on any and all parts of the fire control systems mostly of tanks but at that time we also did some artillery work at the depot.


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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2008, 07:30:24 AM »
>could you imagine what one of those being original ,in good condition would be worth ?

Unless things have changed a whole lot in the past few years, I don't think the U.S. CW era quadrants would sell or more than a few or several hundred bucks, they are still quite common.  Seems collectors aren't that crazy about wooden instruments that are unmarked as to maker, which is the case with all the wood quadrants I've seen.  The brass ones are another story, they don't turn up that often.

Offline phalanx

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2008, 04:22:09 PM »
I am still trying to find out more about the tools of Artillery ,not just the guns .
My wife is an LPN ,and she works at one of many retirement homes in the area.
She let me talk to a man who was not in real good health ,he is a WW2 Veteran.
He was 18 years old in early 1942 ,and his job description sounds about like about what Gray Beard said his was.
My wife said i made his day ,A young Kid ,to him ,asking him about this ,When for years no one cared.
He said he was attached to an Artillery regiment ,that was getting the guns they had ,and the tools for them into service ,for shipment to England.
He said the Guns were not that old ,but the tools were sometimes dumped off from a ware house left over from WW1 ,and the American Army wasn't ready for this.
He said they spent days cleaning them up getting the tools ready ,for issue.
In Boot camp he trained with a wooden rifle , and he didn't even see a real rifle until he was 19.
I asked him if he was trained to use the tools ,he said no one left there knew how to use the tools ,anyone who did was already deployed .
He said they brought in old WW1 Vets to train the guys how to use them ,and sometimes the guns.
I asked who taught them ,He looked at me and said ,Boy who do you think taught them ?
Yes you got it, CW ,some of which were with Roosevelt at San Juan Hill ,and were only 15 during the CW.
That is about all i could get out of him ,he was with the 15th , and survived the entire war and never became a Gunner.
His name is ,Jacob Armstrong ,and i thank him for his service.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline Double D

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2008, 04:49:46 PM »
Wow, Phalanx,

Goog job!!! Tip of the hat to you!!

Offline phalanx

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2008, 05:20:45 PM »
Thank you DD , The Wife said he was asking about ,that guy ,i may get more out of him on Friday if they let me.
It seems Gunner was a big title to have , E6 or something.
I think Jacob did all the grunt work ,But they tell me he is excited now and wants to talk.
I know its off the BP content of this board ,but it is an old man who has it in his blood ,like we all do.
And as a young man he was there when it all changed.
Wife said to bring the lap top and show him this forum , she said when everything and everyone in his life has left him , some do not forget.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2008, 01:00:34 AM »
Those are conversations worthy of taping!

I think back of some that I've had and didn't tape - never thought to.

One was a U-boat captain.
One was a sniper on the Eastern Front with 26 confirmed kills.
One was a concentration camp survivor from Poland.

many more ...  great people, great conversations.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline phalanx

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2008, 02:12:15 AM »
A U Boat Captain  :o  Now that would be one worth keeping ,there isn't a lot of those still around.
That would be about as astounding as talking to a Gettysburg Veteran.
It sort of catches you off guard when these guys start talking ,you feel like a reporter , but without the training.
But you know ,if you had a recorder ,and started taking notes ,i don't know if they would be as candid as they are when talking one on one.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline Cannonmaker

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2008, 03:49:23 PM »
Here in Southern Idaho out local newspaper runs a weekly article in the paper called "Unsung Hero's".  They interview WWII Vets and have a picture and a 3/4 page article of their expearience.  This is some good reading, our WWII vets are dying at the rate of 1000 per day.  Git his history before it is lost, and don't forget to tell him thanks for his service.

Rick
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Malta, Idaho 83342              Keeping history alive with the roar of the guns

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2008, 12:51:03 PM »
A U Boat Captain  :o 
...

I was 14ish - early 1960's.  Herr Rott was the German professor at the college where my father taught.  Dad invited him over for dinner.  I was just too young to have it together enough to ask anything.  He must have made Captain at the end of the war - Dad mentioned he in 'proper German tradition' did not just scuttle the U-Boat, but sailed it up the Thames and surrendered.  Cost him 3 years in an internment camp.

Opportunity lost.

Build the relationship!  People LOVE to talk about themselves! 

My grandfather was a personal Friends with both William Jennings Bryan and a fellow named Scopes - again THE QUESTIONS I COULD HAVE ASKED !!!!!!!!!!  All I remember is a comment he made about trying to bring them together and resolve the issue.


You're right, Rick, ACT now.


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Offline phalanx

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2008, 05:04:41 PM »
Cat:  there has to be only three of these guys left alive today .
U Boat service i think only ranked behind  US Army Bomber crews on Casualties.
The closest i have been to someone like that was Harrison Schmitt ,one of the last men to walk on the Moon.
He said he had to go #1 in his suit ,he had a diaper ,but he said it got so cold his teeth were chattering ,and he got diaper rash.
He also said that even tough the other guy was out side the LEM with him ,He never felt so vulnerable and alone in his entire life.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline opatriot

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2008, 08:57:00 AM »
GDAY FRIENDS ... I HAVE A GUNNERS QUADRANT ..... I believe it was for some type of howitzer ... but im sure it will work well for any mortar or canon ..... I dont think ill ever have a full size gun or mortar so i would really like to see someone that shoots /fires these big guns put it to use ... its a well crafted instrument .. with a bubble level on the movable center piece ..... Its a waste just sitting on my shelf ........ So if your interested and want to offer an honest price for it send me a  PM   .........   HERE IS A LINK TO SOME PICTURES ......  http://www.flickr.com/gp/17089611@N06/910V45  ....... KIND REGARDS .....DAVEY
............................. DAVEY  (OPATRIOT)  ....................................................................       WHAT IS POPULAR IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT, WHAT IS RIGHT IS NOT ALWAYS POPULAR ...

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2008, 01:56:32 PM »
Davey, if I'm not mistaken yours is Chinese.  We have one identical.  You are right, it is well-made, I think it has a lot of stainless steel in it.  It is not at all what you'd think of with Chinese stuff, it is top quality and very precise.

Offline opatriot

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2008, 04:42:30 PM »
MMMMMMMABEE ........ My brother in law brought it back from the first gulf war ...... he was chopper pilot flying around in iraq ...he said the iraq army just put down there weapons and surrenderd ...he brought this back as souvenier ......
............................. DAVEY  (OPATRIOT)  ....................................................................       WHAT IS POPULAR IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT, WHAT IS RIGHT IS NOT ALWAYS POPULAR ...

Offline Victor3

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2008, 02:27:24 AM »
CW said:

"My grandfather was a personal Friends with both William Jennings Bryan and a fellow named Scopes - again THE QUESTIONS I COULD HAVE ASKED !!!!!!!!!!  All I remember is a comment he made about trying to bring them together and resolve the issue."


Really?  Well I'll be a monkey's uncle.

Not.... ;D
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2008, 04:09:17 PM »
CW said:
...
Really?  Well I'll be a monkey's uncle.

Not.... ;D

You caught it.  He was a minister in the town.  There are issues that can't be resolved by diplomacy.

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Offline Victor3

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2008, 02:38:04 AM »
 CW said:


 "There are issues that can't be resolved by diplomacy."


 Indeed. That's why cannons "evolved" from simpler forms of weapons - to use when diplomacy fails...
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline phalanx

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2008, 08:26:23 PM »
I picked this up at a Pawn shop this afternoon.
$20.00.
The guy said it was a carpenters square and level. OK ,sold.


It also has the leather case.
I didn't think 20 bucks was bad for a carpenters square.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2008, 08:43:32 PM »
Looks like a Gunner's Quadrant, M1.  It works much like the machine gunner's clinometer, described here.  The M1 G.Q. is pictured at bottom of the page for comparison.

http://browningmgs.com/Clinometer/Clinometer.htm

Offline Ex 49'er

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2008, 08:45:56 PM »
That there is one fine looking carpenters square. ;D ;D ;D  Ebay usually gets $25 - $50  for quadrants like that without a case. Cases are also made of wood and metal. Congrats on a good deal.
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline phalanx

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Re: Gunner's Quadrants, measurement of angles, and principles of operation
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2008, 09:28:09 PM »
I don't think the guy had a clue.
Or cared , all you had to do is pick it up and read it.
It was stuck over in a bunch of Hocked stuff.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III