what does marginal mean?

[fernie]

I make part of my living in western backcountry.  As long as my only concern out there is for venison for my table anything goes...one of my best friends died last year and he used a .22-250 his whole life on big deer with spectacular results.  A man I know, his wife, has killed elk with carefully placed .243 Partitions her whole life.  But turn the tables, accompany me into the wild during non-hunting season, and the word 'marginal' means a whole different thing.  I carry heavy cartridges with me, both for myself, and for the safety of my clients.  I guess I've never asked them what they think I should be carrying - most of them just trust me that if we are confronted by an irate moose, that what I shoot will end the confrontation right now, not after getting chased around for a bit first.  That to me is what defines 'marginal.'  If I could not do that, I wouldn't be much of a guide, would I?  And I know that my friends who guide for bear and are called in to deal with a hunter's mistakes define it the same way.

Doc

[deltecs]

When one guides hunters, their safety is the primary goal.  Not to get game, but safety.  It is understandable that firearms used by guides are necessarily heavier than needed to effectively shoot game.  This is due to potentially wounded animals that may injure or kill their clients.  A heavier than needed rifle mandates immediate stopping power, not to just kill but to immobilize immediately if possible any potential threat.  This is not in the same category as the rifle and calibers needed or used by hunters to effectively and efficiently gather game. 

[SHOOTALL]

so you guide clients with marginal guns or ability or both ?
i reason that if a gun won't deal with any situation on a hunt then it is marginal no matter who totes it !
and as hunters we all at sometime are marginal as we are human !

[deltecs]

so you guide clients with marginal guns or ability or both ?
i reason that if a gun won't deal with any situation on a hunt then it is marginal no matter who totes it !
and as hunters we all at sometime are marginal as we are human !

I am not a guide, have never been a guide, have never used a guide for hunting, and probably will never use a guide.  Guides would not at all be necessary or needed whatsoever, if all hunters had the ability and/or common sense to use adequate combinations of rifle and bullet on game.  So, marginal is only a term from one hunters opinion solely versus actual experience by the one familiar with using a so called marginal caliber.

[SHOOTALL]

i can agree it depends who holds the rifle as to the definition of marginal !
also law is responsible for the use of guides in many areas , often for economic reasons as much as safety !

[jro45]

Marginal means: close to the lower limit of acceptability. To Me that would mean The bullet it shoots is close to the area of not being accepted for larger game.                                             

[Nightstalker6117]

Here is my thought(s) ... No matter what caliber you are using YOU are the one that has to lay your head down at night and say I did whats right. From experience I have taken a bad shot and felt EXTREMELY BAD!!!!  the worst day in the field ever. I almost cried hearing that deer scream...... That was using a 30-06. I now use a 25-06. But I will say that I can shoot it more comfortably and ... AND CONFIDENTLY. Now that being said I had the biggest buck I have ever seen on our farm or for that matter EVER. A monster when I first saw him he was 40 yards.... no problem but by the time I got my gun and he presented me another shot he was 275-300??? dont really know I dont have a rangefinder but I passed. I know ... I KNOW my gun can shoot that far but I CANT. Some may call the 25 "marginal" and that is OK with me. It took 3 deer this year with good shots. But I do not flinch near as much as I did shooting the 30-06. And to boot I put a Limbsaver pad on it to reduce the recoil even more and now shoot better (they work). Just remember marginal is an opinion when used in these forums. Now some say that because they have experience with such calibers on various animals but it is still their opinion. I will tell you this even I have started threads like the "243 on deer" thread ... mine was actually "25-06 on elk" but all the same. Even got the same answers. Words were used like this ... GREAT ... NOPE ... HELL NO ... MARGINAL.... PROPER PLACEMENT ... GOOD BULLET .. etc etc.  The reason I post is to get answers from people with experience and a lot of the time on a thread like that you get opinions. I know this is not one of those threads but for all that think it is ask yourself can you sleep at night knowing there might be a wounded animal out in the woods because you did not take the time to practice and use the proper equipment whatever caliber that might be(for you) and make a MAKE ABLE HUMANE shot. Always have respect for the weapon, the game and yourself. And since you asked ... "marginal" to me means ... less than ideal

[beemanbeme]

Good point, Nightstalker. We often say xxx cartridge is marginal but we really mean the shooter's abilities are what are in doubt. No one wants to admit they are lousy shots or not up to making some sort of shot into the next time zone, so we blame the bullet, the rifle, the scope, the moon phase, etc.
It is a wise man that knows himself. Desiderata. 

[SHOOTALL]

After reading all , marginal means you have a bigger chance of failure !

[Treborwolf]

Marginal

I guess that its meaning here is or at least in the .243 case, it means it is at the limit of how it can effectively take down deer.

Some people use this meaning Example: A 300 win mag has a larger margin of error over the .243 win. I'd say yeah if I were shooting at Grizzly and didnt want to put my life in to much danger.
I like the second meaning better, because that is saying I can hit the deer almost anywhere else besides the vitals and be able to take that deer down. Yeah i would like to try that sometime. OK if some one were to say, I hunt in dense cover do not get too many clear shots, yes a larger caliber with round tip bullets may be a better choice for deer because the heavier bullet would tend to deflect less if it were to hit a small twig or 2 and still make to the vitals., In this case the 300 win mag would have a larger margin of error. Are we hunters or not, we should not be taking marginal shots at deer or any other animal, this means lets take a chance and shoot and lets see what happens, thats when the 338 mag comes in handi. Sorry for my sarcasm.

[303Guy]

....... From experience I have taken a bad shot and felt EXTREMELY BAD!!!! ......

Absolutely - I use the term 'HAUNTED'.  Had nothing to do with caliber!  I would far rather pass up a shot than risk a bad shot.

[303Guy]

Has anyone ever thought that folks that shoot ........ might be better shots because they shoot a cartridge that is a joy to shoot.........

Oh yes - most definitely!

[Nightstalker6117]

The quote that 303guy just used from flint is so true ... I think that is what I was trying to say when i went from the 30 to the 25-06. Less recoil ... even more when i added the Limbsaver. My groups shrunk by half. There are so many calibers that are "marginal" by some... 17hmr for yotes the 243 for deer the 25's for elk etc etc. But to me if i can put a well placed shot with a caliber that I am comfortable shooting compared to a shoulder bruising caliber with ( i agree with the people that say this) a proper bullet. Then to me that is not marginal. I would love to be able to shoot a 300 Win mag at deer so that was I know it would light them up and have a harder hitting bullet. But for me that would make me a "marginal" shooter because I might hit the vitals I might hit the rump?? Like I said you have to respect the animal that you are harvesting. If not than you do NOT need to be hunting. I warn you if you have a bad shot that went like mine you will never forget it. I almost quit hunting deer one for the scream two for the shame that i felt. Another thing I am a pretty good shot at 100 yards. I would say marginal at 200 and dont have a clue at 300. So I dont take shots much past 100-125. I will say that I am going to practice my 200 yards shots here this spring so hopefully i can become good at 200 so that way when that monster i was talking about that i saw last year pops up I can place a good shot within 200 yards Take care Stu

[Mattkc]

You are looking at the term marginal from the wrong perspective.  Marginal refers to the ability of the hunter/shooter not the 243.  If you are a marginal shot you may need something bigger then a 243.  If you can't select the proper bullet for the 243 you may be marginal.  If you don't have the ability to get within reasonable distance of your deer you maybe marginal.  If you can't hit what you aim at unless it's from a concrete bench shooting paper targets you my be marginal. If you can't make an off-hand shot you may be marginal.  If you can't reliably kill a deer with a 243, you guessed it you probably are marginal.  If your spent countless hours on the computer debating if the 243 is marginal or which is better the 308 or 30-06 or is the 270 enough for elk you definitely are marginal.  Can't we move on to something interesting like which is better Savage or Tikka.  By the way I don't hunt deer with a 243 I use my 357 revolver or Marlin carbine for most of the deer I shoot.  Is a 357 marginal for deer, it sure doesnt have the energy of a 243.

[SHOOTALL]

the 243 would be marginal at 500 yards in the hands of a great shot !
so it is marginal as is a shooter !
a 300 win mag with 150 win silv tip bullets is also marginal at 500 yards if you beileve it takes 1000 ft lbs of energy to get the job done ! bump it to 180 gr bullets and there you go !

[Mattkc]

If you can't figure out every caliber has it's limitations you might be marginal.  If a great shot takes a marginal shot he is still a great shot, but a marginal hunter.  So if a deer was at 1000 yards would that make the 300 mag marginal because it had less then 1000 pounds of energy?

[SHOOTALL]

yep !

[wyohandi]

Now I'm not advocating praising or damning anyones caliber of choice,and sure not condoning this, but....
A couple of years ago a guy here poached like 13-14 elk, all in a herd in this little park, none of them made it out of the park
and he was shooting a mini 14 in 223. everyone knows you need at least a 338wm to kill an elk I wish someone would
have told all those elk that, they could have just brushed off those bee stings and just went on eatin.
(and I bet he didn't get them all to stand broadside for him)
Again not advocating this just passing it on. Not even sure this pertains to this thread, but one mans marginal
is anothers caliber of choice.

[victorcharlie]

I've heard more deer have been poached with a .22lr than any other round......

[SHOOTALL]

we here that also , but if it were check-able , bet most are poached with the gun most hunt with as not tagging a deer is poaching . just a hunch

[petemi]

I guess that is my pet peeve.  "Marginal."  I cannot for the life of me understand why sooooo many people want to take deer at the greatest possible distance with the smallest possible dose.  I traded my 6mm model 7 for a .308 M77-MKII and never looked back.  Sure, the 6mm does kill deer, but I'm sorry, the .308 does a much better job of it.  I have lots of rifles, large and small calibers, and I use nothing smaller than 7mm-08 on deer.  I don't own any .25 cal. rifles, but I'm sure I would use them on whitetails if I did, but I wouldn't go smaller than that.  Where I live and hunt, the 7 mm-08, .30-30, .30-06, and .45-70 take deer and larger.  The .22-250, .357, and .22 in addition to shotguns take care of the rest.  The 6mm or .243 Just doesn't do anything I can't with the others.  IMHO the 7mm-08 will do everything a .243 will do.....but much better.

[deltecs]

I guess that is my pet peeve.  "Marginal."  I cannot for the life of me understand why sooooo many people want to take deer at the greatest possible distance with the smallest possible dose.  I traded my 6mm model 7 for a .308 M77-MKII and never looked back.  Sure, the 6mm does kill deer, but I'm sorry, the .308 does a much better job of it.  I have lots of rifles, large and small calibers, and I use nothing smaller than 7mm-08 on deer.  I don't own any .25 cal. rifles, but I'm sure I would use them on whitetails if I did, but I wouldn't go smaller than that.  Where I live and hunt, the 7 mm-08, .30-30, .30-06, and .45-70 take deer and larger.  The .22-250, .357, and .22 in addition to shotguns take care of the rest.  The 6mm or .243 Just doesn't do anything I can't with the others.  IMHO the 7mm-08 will do everything a .243 will do.....but much better.

I probably agree with most of this post, however, many rifles were chambered for the .243 Win long before the advent of the 260 Rem or the 7mm-08.  Some gunshops did not have the .308 Win in stock at the time the buyer had the money or the inclination to buy a new rifle.  Also, many newer rifles were chambered for the .243 Win and the 6mm Rem prior to the newer cartridges.  If one were to look at firearms sales by manufacturer, they would probably be surprised that the .243 Win over the last 10 years is in the top 5 for sales by every major American arms manufacturer.  I happen to use the .243 on deer and have since 1964 and have no complaints whatsoever.  It gets the job done with the right bullets.  As far as other calibers doing it better, sure there are.  Just as the .338 Fed will do a better job than the .308 Win on deer, elk, moose, caribou, or any other big game.  And the .375 H&H will do better than it on the same game too.  If it is sufficient and trustworthy and I believe it to be, then why not use one and forget all the other comparisons, just because something may do it better.  I've shot record scoring caribou with 100 grain Nosler Part and dropped them like a stone axe had hit them, on raking shots too.  These weighed over 500#'s.  So, I think the .243 Win is plenty good enough for deer and definitely not marginal with proper bullets.

[alsatian]

You ask what marginal means and seem to indicate you are interested in a general discussion.  One possible definition of marginal may be related to identifying a range of cartridges suitable for a specific game animal, ranked in order of power.  The extreme limits, on either end, of this ordered range could then be referred to as "marginal."  If .243 is the weakest suitable cartridge for deer hunting, by this definition it would be "marginal."  On the other hand, if the .22-250 were deemed a suitable cartridge for deer hunting, by this definition the .243 would not be "marginal," because the .22-250 would form the lower extreme of this range.  On the upper end, something like the .300 Winchester Magnum or the .338 Winchester Magnum might be deemed the upper limit of practical deer cartridges, and then these might be deemed "marginal" deer cartridges.

While the above sets forth one plausible defniition of "marginal," I think most people have something else in mind when they use this term with reference to hunting cartridges.  I think this term means "can work on the subject game under limited circumstances."  For those who aren't willing to accept these limitations, the obvious solution is to use a more powerful cartridge.

[deltecs]

I kind of agree with your concept of marginal.  However, I think the conditions under which marginal must be applied to must be listed.  My use of the .243 Win on deer and caribou with appropriate bullets do everything a larger bore can do except put a larger wound channel in the animal.  A bad hit with a .308 Win is not going to kill a deer any quicker than a bad hit from a .243 Win.  A gut shot deer hit with a .243 Win is going to run just a far as a bad hit from a .338 Win, .308 Win, .358 Win, 30-30 or any other caliber for all practical purposes.  The wound is finally going to kill the deer but it may travel for quite a distance before it dies.  I think of marginal as using the wrong bullets for the type of game hunted in the rifle of choice.  I don't use frangible light weight bullets that may be a bit more accurate for deer because a raking shot may not penetrate to the vitals.  I don't take shots at extreme distances, as I've always found ways to get closer, enough to place my shots on target.  So, one doesn't need the extreme velocity to shoot flat trajectories.  A .243 Win with 100 gr RN bullets will impact about 10" low at 300 yds or 7" low at 300 with 100 BT bullets, so trajectory is not enough to justify use of lighter weight bullets between these distances.  We are talking about a minute of angle between a round nose bullet and a boat tail at 300 yrds.  A wisp of cross wind somewhere in the middle of this distance, would effect this amount of error in bullet path without anyone knowing the difference.  Any supposed positive gain using lighter bullets is just not true or justified at this distance or beyond, and the heavier bullet kills cleanly anywhere in between on all vital shots.