Author Topic: what does marginal mean?  (Read 4523 times)

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Offline lakestatebob

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what does marginal mean?
« on: December 26, 2007, 10:18:29 AM »
In the .243 for deer thread, the word marginal seems to be used by some to describe the .243 for deer.  I am interested in what you all interpret marginal to mean?  This isn't meant to be a discussion on the .243, it could be any bullet for anything but it has been use in this forum so there must be many or the same opinions.  To me a particular caliber would be marginal if any particular chest hit quartering to away etc. may result in failure to penetrate to the opposite side of the chest (not necessarily an exit). I think it should be a given that appropriate bullets are used and we would probably have to agree on range limitations too.  A .223 to me would be marginal for deer because it would kill on broadside shots but not dependably penetrate shoulder or leg bones. So I ask what does marginal mean to you?

Offline deltecs

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2007, 12:12:25 PM »
Your definition seems to be realistic to me.  I would add though that marginal must include the bullets used in this definition.  As hunters, an expanding bullet is needed for humane kills, not that solids won't.  So, any marginal bore must include expanding bullets that do not make it into the boiler room in direct line penetration.  So, since some expanding bullets are hardier than their bothers, it makes sense to only use marginal for those bullets that are not and either fragment upon impact or are too light to have enough momentum to make it into the chest cavity. 
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Offline lakestatebob

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2007, 02:19:13 PM »
you make a good point. maybe the type of bullet does need to be identified.  But, doesn't marginal imply that it would be a questionable choice?  I my description above I think I would consider any cartridge that fit those parameters to be legitimate, acceptable or maybe even good for the game intended, yet whenever I here marginal in the description I think questionable, weak or maybe even not acceptable, I mean who wants a "marginal" cartridge for deer or even rabbits for that matter.  There is something about this term I just don't like and I'm not sure why. 

Offline deltecs

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2007, 03:35:30 PM »
I too dislike the term marginal relating to cartridge rounds.  The .243 Win debate as to deer is just that.  Debatable.  With the right bullets it is sufficient to take any deer at normal hunting ranges up to 300 yds.   At that range every cartridge needs correct shot placement and not just the lesser rounds.  Maybe not every shot, but almost all shots at deer can be made within 300 yds.  Beyond that, most hunters could sneak up on the game to reduce longer shots to within this range.  I've used a white handkerchief and flagged it just to get deers attention at ranges beyond 300 yds and have had them come closer for a curious look.  As they are heading my direction most of the shots I've taken have been easily inside 300 yds and impact in the frontal areas.  Does one have to buy the biggest magnum so he can target practice on game beyond 300 yds or use a round sufficient for most hunting conditions and hunt?
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Opinion(s) are expressly mine alone and do not necessarily agree with those of GB or GBO mgmt.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2007, 03:44:40 PM »
Marginal means to me something works one time, but under the SAME conditions next time it may or may not work. To me the example of the 223 misses the mark. If you know that a 223 will kill a Deer every time if you Lung the Deer @ under a 100 yards, (and I do know that if the right bullet is used), then that is what you do, or don't shoot. Then it is not marginal if it is the only method you use & are OK with that. If you know that it may penetrate a shoulder one time but not the next, then by shooting the shoulder it becomes a marginal performer because of the moron behind the trigger. So something can be inherently marginal for a specific purpose or made to be marginal by the user. 
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Offline PartsMan

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2007, 03:53:56 PM »
It means they are trying to use big words to justify there bigger gun to you.

Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2007, 04:06:36 PM »
It simply means border line to me. Dale
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2007, 04:30:46 PM »
It means they are trying to use big words to justify there bigger gun to you.


Parts Man, you may have something there.

Dale, in plain simple words, yea!
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Offline 303Guy

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2007, 07:41:17 PM »
To me, 'marginal' means it will work fine only when used carefully - i.e. side on to quartering chest shots that avoid heavy bone and/or muscle or OK for close range only.  (I do not do head shots so those don't count for me).

Offline trotterlg

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2007, 09:10:32 PM »
A 243 is sure not marginal for Deer, it may be marginal for Elk, or Bear.  A 22 Mag is marginal for Deer.  Years ago when I was young a 25-20 was a great deer rifle, then the deer got tough and now days you can't kill one of them with anything smaller than a 300 Win Mag.  It is just a wonder to me how the genetics of deer have changed in a few short years to make them near bullet proof.  Larry
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Offline PartsMan

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2007, 03:07:42 AM »
A 243 is sure not marginal for Deer, it may be marginal for Elk, or Bear.  A 22 Mag is marginal for Deer.  Years ago when I was young a 25-20 was a great deer rifle, then the deer got tough and now days you can't kill one of them with anything smaller than a 300 Win Mag.  It is just a wonder to me how the genetics of deer have changed in a few short years to make them near bullet proof.  Larry
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Offline STUMPJMPR

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2007, 03:16:45 AM »
Marginal means after you shoot your deer is not in 2 pieces.....haha....The truth of the matter is that most deer i have seen shot in the the shoulder with anything from a 30-30win or 243win up have expired fairly quickly....If your taking less than perfect shots maybe a bigger gun is for you....For instance my dad shot a deer this past weekend which was not a good shot...It was a shot where the deer was angled away from him....he hit it in the side right in front the hind quarter it came out the shoulder on the opposite side....That was with a 270win...I don't think i would have taken the shot with a smaller rifle such as a 243

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2007, 04:58:48 AM »
No such thing......
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2007, 09:04:49 AM »
IMO it means anyone, regardless of experience or ability will have to use the right bullet (very few choices for the cartridge) and bullet placement will need to be just right for a clean kill.
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2007, 02:26:26 PM »
Gee, I thought he said this WASN'T a discussion about .243's. You guys are just plain paranoid.
FYI, if marginal is a considered a BIG word, maybe we just need to sit around and drool and grunt at one another.  Geez. 

Offline Brithunter

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2007, 12:55:02 AM »
Hmmm surely marginal means at the edge.

    In a pond you have marginal plants which funny enough grow in the margins. A transiton place from water to dry land. Documemts have Margins, again on the edge.

    Sorry but I cannot marginal in context when used with the .243 and Deer.

   

Offline PartsMan

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2007, 03:24:46 AM »
Gee, I thought he said this WASN'T a discussion about .243's. You guys are just plain paranoid.
FYI, if marginal is a considered a BIG word, maybe we just need to sit around and drool and grunt at one another.  Geez. 

To people that think a 243 won't cleanly kill deer "marginal" is a big word.

Offline Old English

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2007, 04:01:32 AM »
I thought marginal was a substitute for butter?  :D

Enough of the 243 for deer debate, geez!!!!

Offline dukkillr

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2007, 05:30:05 AM »
Not long ago a guy asked us if he had taken an ethical shot.  I may get the details slightly wrong, but the gist was that he took a low percentage shot because a deer had already been hit once by someone in his party and he didn't want to lose it.  He was hunting with some round that would work just fine under normal circumstances, but would probably perform poorly in that type situation.

That's marginal to me.  It's also the reason I don't understand pushing the smallest caliber I can find.  Sometimes crazy things happen, and when they do, I don't want marginal.  Pick your shot and you'll be fine with a 22lr for deer.  But try to hit a gut shot deer at 300 yards that's running away, and you need a quality deer round (and lots of luck).  No human is perfect, and if you hunt long enough you'll make a bad shot, or your partner will, or you'll stumble onto the neighbors bad shot.  And, quite frankly, I can't figure out an advantage.  I can't figure out why anyone would rather shoot a 22-250 than a 270.  That's the real heart of the issue to me. 

In practical whitetail terms, to me, marginal ends somewhere around 25-06 (but I don't have a lot of experience with lesser rounds so this is a gray area). 

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2007, 06:27:36 AM »
if its marginal , its a bad choice !
as anything less than suitable is a bad choice !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2007, 06:53:12 AM »
There is no "marginal"

There is what I would use, and there is what you would use......

This is a very slippery slope.....If we sling arrows at deer with children's bows then any modern firearm is capable......as well as primitive firearms.....

What's right for you may not be my choice, but I defend your right to make that choice..... with in legal limits of course......
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Offline 303Guy

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2007, 08:18:39 AM »
..........    Sorry but I cannot marginal in context when used with the .243 and Deer.


AS trotterlg   said, "A 243 is sure not marginal for Deer,  ......"
Dave in WV put it the way I understand it;  "...... will have to use the right bullet (very few choices for the cartridge) and bullet placement will need to be just right for a clean kill."
But I am with victorcharlie on this one.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2007, 08:45:37 AM »
don't forget suitable for one persons skill may not be for the next guys !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2007, 10:00:28 AM »
Sure am glad this ain't a discussion about the effectiveness of the .243.
  Of course, if we were discussing the merits of the .22LR, anyone could see that in the hands of an experienced hunter that would never, ever attempt anything but the most perfect shot, never attempt shots at say 623 yards and leave a deer wondering thru the woods wounded, and would have the spooring ability to track (since there would be little or no blood trail) the deer to the ends of the earth to bring him to bag rather than saying "oh well, I may have missed, no point in telling anyone about this shot", then the .22LR could not be considered marginally effective but rather deemed lightning in a bottle. (I forgot to turn my spell check off so imagine a winky face)

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2007, 10:21:26 AM »
the effectiveness of any gun is dependent on the gun , round , bullet , weather , distance to target , target make up , skill of the shooter as to hitting the target, judging a good shot , knowing proper shot placement , bullet selection , reading wind and grade and yardage etc.etc.etc.etc. !
guess most rounds are marginal in some way !
that's why i say suitable ! its easier to explain ! - if you do your part the gun can do its part ! ie the 3006 is suitable for white tail deer ! no ifs , ands or buts .
the 243 well its marginal at times !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Mike Pearson

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2008, 10:41:46 AM »
In the .243 for deer thread, the word marginal seems to be used by some to describe the .243 for deer.  I am interested in what you all interpret marginal to mean?  This isn't meant to be a discussion on the .243, it could be any bullet for anything but it has been use in this forum so there must be many or the same opinions.  To me a particular caliber would be marginal if any particular chest hit quartering to away etc. may result in failure to penetrate to the opposite side of the chest (not necessarily an exit). I think it should be a given that appropriate bullets are used and we would probably have to agree on range limitations too.  A .223 to me would be marginal for deer because it would kill on broadside shots but not dependably penetrate shoulder or leg bones. So I ask what does marginal mean to you?
To me marginal performance means that the performance IS adequate but that there is no surplus (of performance). Comparing a .223 with a .30-06, both using their best deer bullets would be a classic example I think. A broadside behind the shoulder shot with the .223 at under 100 yards will take most whitetails very cleanly and quickly. Used within it's own parameters, the .223 will do a GOOD job of killing whitetail deer BUT there is little if any surplus of performance available for the guy using this little cartridge. He NEEDS to be extra selective of the shots he takes and the angles he takes them. The guy with the '06 has a MORE than ample cartridge. His cartridge can take deer to over 500 yards (even if he can't). His cartridge can take deer at just about any angle imaginable. If he gets the bullet into one lung instead of two, the chances are still pretty good that he'll tag his deer. If he has  an elk tag and a granddaddy elk should happen along, he's ready. The .223 guy is not.

Marginal does NOT mean mediocre. It does mean that there is a short (usually very short) jump to mediocre. With ample guns (and even .300 Weatherby's are marginal performers in the hands of some--no cartridge is boob-proof), the jump to mediocre is a longer one. Again though, some boobs will make even a .300 Weatherby look mediocre.

Offline 303Guy

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2008, 06:47:34 PM »
..... marginal performance means that the performance IS adequate but that there is no surplus.....
You expressed that very well indeed, Mike.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2008, 03:22:34 AM »
marginal means limitations exist more than normally would !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Mike Pearson

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2008, 05:44:23 AM »
Thanks .303! Much appreciated!

Shootall, you are right in my opinion. There ARE more limitations with the one than the other. I agree with that 100%! Have you ever wondered why some guys seem to get the job done (and done well) with a lighter/smaller caliber and some other guy has a hard enough time getting it done with cartridges you KNOW are up to the job? The way I look at it, there's capability of the cartridge and then there's the ability of the shooter himself. When I say ability of the shooter, I'm not just referring to his marksmanship. He could be the greatest shot in the history of the world but if he's using a cartridge that's NOT capable of clean kills with a given shot placement and he doesn't have the good sense to know it OR the disclipline to pass on the shot, he's going to have problems.
If a guy takes any ole shot that comes his way, his bullets are very likely to land any ole place (stomach, leg, jaw, maybe in the vitals occasionally) and this (slob) hunter is going to get bad results. He's likely to even leave wounded game to die a long agonizing death and it really won't matter much what cartridge he's using either. He'll have problems with a .300 Weatherby if HE is lousy enough! From a pure discussion standpoint, if you were to actually match him up with a cartridge that COULD cleanly take deer with his lousy choice of placement, you might find yourself looking at something like a 20 mm cannon HE (high explosive) shell---something the DNR might take a dim view of!;0)) Still, in the hands of some, a .300 is marginal because they themselves are mediocre in their ability to use it.
The other scenario is a guy who uses a mediocre capibility cartridge and insists on using it for shots that only capable cartridge can handle. An extreme example is the poacher's favorite, the .22 short. If the poacher sticks within the capabilities of his cartridge (close range easy entry brain shots between the eye and the ear) the animal drops every time. If, on the other hand, the guy is a hunter of deer and takes a typical chest shot, he's going to lose the vast majority of his deer.  Incapable for the chest shots most deer hunters take, it truly IS  an incapable cartridge for the deer hunting most legal hunters do.
Everything I wrote so far has been deliberately in the extreme to make points but what about the .223 or .243 deer hunter or the guy who takes coyotes with a .22 Magnum? In the cases of the .223 for deer and the .22 Magnum for coyotes, you really ARE standing on the line of capability (margin). Nevertheless, when these cartridges are used PROPERLY within their narrow range of capabilities, they work sufficiently and oftentimes they work well. In the case of the .243, the hunter might need to be even more judicious/knowledgeable in his choice of loads and shot placement than say he would with a .30-06 BUT if he is, he has success. So the .243(a capable cartridge for deer)in the hands of a hunter who can handle it wisely IS sufficient for deer. The '06 is MORE than sufficient but even it has limits. Push the range far enough and even a double lung shot deer won't be cleanly killed.
Know what your load, gun and YOU can do in the field and act only within those parameters. ---Mike

Offline flintlock

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Re: what does marginal mean?
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2008, 06:06:22 AM »
To stir the pot even more ;D...

Has anyone ever thought that folks that shoot a .243, 25-06, .257 Roberts or a .250 Savage might be better shots because they shoot a cartridge that is a joy to shoot, so they shoot more...Maybe they never learned to flinch so they might just be better rifle shots than the guy that shoots a bigger gun that shoots a few times a year because he doesn't like being hit every time he pulls the trigger.....

We have several guests come to our farms each year...I set up the shooting bench to have each guy check his gun...Several times I have let him shoot, taken his gun and acted like I inserted another cartridge, when I didn't.....When they drop the hammer on an empty chamber, about 80% flinch..... :D