Author Topic: .357 Mag for black bear/lion protection (Read 1846 times)

DelGue · « **on:** June 23, 2003, 10:29:12 AM »

My wife and I were talking about a recent mtn lion attack that we read about in the news. Where a little boy was killed. She thought it would be prudent that no predator chew holes in her little boys whilst hiking/camping. Also, she needed to buy me a birthday present.

She went to my local gunshop and asked the sales people what I might be interested in (I stop by from time to time). Her sense was bear protection for the boys.

She came home with a S&W 627 8 shooter, in 357 mag. Beautiful revolver, but now I have to come up with something that works in it for its desired purpose. Also, I don't want to discourage her from buying me guns. This is a good thing, says I. And a good lady.

Any thoughts?

DelGuu

Desperado357 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 23, 2003, 12:15:56 PM »

if your gun shop doesnt carry em have em special order em, corbon makes a Penetrater load (my personal choice) and its cousin Hard cast flat point they are 200 grain and they are supposed to be used for bear protection the site says. (dont know why i havent heard alot about these loads tho) im trying to tell everyone about em that way not only i but other folks can try em and then it can be coverd alot better and faster of the performance review

Raging480 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 23, 2003, 04:51:54 PM »

I'm sure you already figured this out, but, YOUR WIFE IS A KEEPER!
I use to scout adirondack blackies with my 686, then i bought my 3" .41 mag, and I feel better. And yes, i do believe there are cougars in the Adirondacks.
The bottom line is, it beats throwin' rocks! Just load 'em fast and furious, and practice 'emergency' firing drills from 15 yards.

JohnK · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2003, 07:26:21 PM »

Cougar are fast and potentially dangerous, but not all that tough. That is not tough like a bear or boar is. According to Brian Pearce a 170 gr Keith @ 1,300-1,400 fps will shoot through a black bear end to end, it should be enough to put down a cougar as well.

If you don't handload the 200 gr Corbon load suggested by Desperado357 would be a good factory choice.

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** June 24, 2003, 03:47:55 AM »

DelGuu: I have taken Cougar in Colorado with 357s using 158 grain loads but prefer a 200 grain semi-wadcutter ofr anything larger, including black bear. You can purchase the 2-00 grain loads from ammo producers like Cor-Bon or you can load them yourself.

I have found that Cor-Bon ammo is sometimes on the conservative side, but at least it is there. My preference for a 357 is an N-Frame Smith which eats those 200 grainers all day long and groups them quite accurately. A 200 grain 357 loaded to 1300'/sec+, using Winchester factory powder charges will shoot through black bear end to end or side to side. I prefer the heavier bullet for penetrating through heavy bone on either of those animals. I never trust a heart/lung shot to stop a predator because they don't know what it means. If you break on through heavy bone structures such as the shoulder girdle/spine, they either drop or try and get the hay away from you. The Keith style 170 grain 357 hardcast slug will do the same when loaded to proper velocities.

Your wife's concerns are absolutely on the mark and for once I am glad to see a gun dealer who didn't steer her wrong.

As the Raging 480 said, practice your drills and do it with the loads you intend to carry. Even the big 200 grainers 'push' more than the lighter bullets 'snap' so practice won't be a wrist breaker. And yes, I do believe there are Cougar in the Adirondacks. Mikey.

Desperado357 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 24, 2003, 09:09:36 AM »

sure wish i knew hhow to reload hehe but kinda scared for the risk i do something stupid and blow my hand off be real bummer

les hemby · « **Reply #6 on:** June 24, 2003, 10:39:32 AM »

i know what you mean thats why i dont. its hard to get into on your own and scary. i like all my fingers :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

Mikey · « **Reply #7 on:** June 25, 2003, 04:27:04 AM »

Desperado357 and les hembly - fellas, reloading can be a very basic activity conducted very safely. Lots of fellas think about the types of reloading presses that can kick out 500 rounds in an hour but even after 37 years of reloading I still get my biggest satisfaction from a single stage press where I have to tend to every step in the process. I am quite fortunate in that I can afford (sometimes) sufficient quanties of bulk ammunition that I can plink/practice/play with.

But, when it comes to the kind of loads I want to take to the field or practice with for hunting situations, I will reload.

Believe it or not, but in all 37 years of reloading I have never had a reloading bench accident. I have screwed up though, so please don't paint a halo around my head. I have made some embarrasing mistakes but none that have turned out to be dangerous or near fatal (Thank You Lord).

I have inserted primers bass ackwards, forgotten or failed to charge cases, dropped bullets too far down the case or left them too far out but fortunately I have never overcharged a case or had a dangerously high level of pressure. Even when wildcatting I was fortunate but, I followed the basic instructions and guidelines in the older Lyman manuals and was able to safely enjoy reloading and the fruits of my labors as a result. And I still have all my fingers.

There are many ways to go about this and with great safety. I will be glad to help out any way I can if you fellas would like to get into it. And let's not forget that these forums are full of guys with tons more experience than I have who would be more than glad to share some insights with you about reloading. Hopes this helps. Mikey.

savageT · « **Reply #8 on:** June 25, 2003, 04:45:31 AM »

Nice post Mikey...........You's a good guy! He got me started guys :grin:

Jim

Old Griz · « **Reply #9 on:** June 28, 2003, 05:55:55 AM »

Does she have a sister? :wink:

RollTide · « **Reply #10 on:** June 28, 2003, 07:04:46 AM »

DelGuu (without the "E") you have gotten lots of good advice here. I carry a 44 Mag for bear protection and I was solidly in the hardcast camp as far as loads to carry until I read JJ Hack's post here a little while back. I now carry heavy hollowpoints. I'm not sure how all this would translate to a 357, but it is interesting reading that made a lot of sense to me. You can read Hack's comments at:

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1777

Roll Tide

Mikey · « **Reply #11 on:** June 30, 2003, 05:20:06 AM »

Desparado357: there was a very good artilce in the recent Shooting Times, by Rick Jamison, about hunting coyotes with a 45 auto. I know you are after lion and bear but the article has some very good advice in it about bullet selection for the game you intend to hunt. Please try and pick up a copy to find that article, it is very informative and may help you decide what bullet to use or, possibly even better, how to train yourself for the kind of shot you will need to make. Hope this helps. Mikey.

animal · « **Reply #12 on:** July 26, 2003, 05:16:52 PM »

DelGue, All I can say is that in 50 years of hard core backpacking and camping the only time I felt I may need the .357 was when dealing with varmits of the human kind. Had bear come close but never even had to draw. :-)

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #13 on:** July 28, 2003, 05:17:26 AM »

This is interesting. I've never personally felt the need for "bear protection" - until I had youngun's.

Knowing b'ars and how opportunistic they are, I could very easily see a blackie trying to snarf up a toddler. We like to pick blueberries - and so do bears.

Also, in the terrain that bears and cats inhabit, the sherrif's response is usually extremely slow. So having something on hand for two legged varmints isn't bad advice either.

However, I've survived 32 years without a sidearm - so that speaks volumes. Albeit bears weren't as common when I was a tot (not that I would have carried, but my pa never went berrypicking with a gun).

And for two legged varmints, a calm and reasonable tone of voice will work much better.

I have a .357 in a lever gun. I'm sure it would do fine for black b'ars and wildcats. As for needing a bigger gun - see my signature. While I agree that you should use enough gun, I also think that you'll be farther along if you tone down the ballistics and crank up the practice.

1GLOCK · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2003, 07:43:36 AM »

Its all about placement of your shots. That being said i would lean on the heavy side but not so heavy that its unmanagable. The odds of taking down a charging black bear with one shot is not good unless your using a big bore, say 44 mag, also if it becomes a situation where you have to shoot the animal will probably be right on top of you so i prefer a moderate load that you can get back on target quickly for the follow up shot. My personal choice for backpacking and camping is a G22 in 40 s&w with alternating loads (hollowpoint, FMJ, Hollowpoint,FMJ, ect..) I also carry 2 spare mags. I know its not a good bear cartridge but with 30 rds at my disposal Im more than comfortable. Back to the subject at hand, pick the hardest hitting load that your wive can manage accurately. :-)

Mikey · « **Reply #15 on:** July 28, 2003, 10:10:54 AM »

1GLOCK and Black Jaque:

1GLOCK: I don't usually pack around that much spare ammo unless I'm more liable to encounter a bunch of half-wits or hunyacques who are too danged sauced to give a schmidt about cell phones and who sez what. If I see someone like that coming down a trail or into an area where I'm at I will just melt into the woods until they have passed. I prefer to avoid them. As for the 4 legged critters - buddy, I like talkin' to ya and hope to continue but there won't be another moments time for a reload if something comes at you fast and low. Think about placing two accurate shots at a fast moving low target in 1.5 seconds and if you can do that you will have more time to jump up a tree to save your butt than you will to reload the pistol. However, for the 2 legged type having a few extra full magazines handy is a good idea.

Black Jaque: regrettably, handguns have been far more utilitarian for me than for you, especially in the woods, and the farther from civilization the more I've found them necessary. Must be something about my ugly face that gives people the need to shift their grip on the stock of their rifles or shotguns, and just as soon as I rest my hand anywhere near the butt of that revolver, the calm tone of voice you referenced becomes much more typical of their expressions than my need for the same. As regards bears - just this morning a female BB with three cubs had one who got treed and was calling for her. Made the local early am TV news. Local idjits laughed about being within mere feet of her - those dummies. Remember the post about the lady who went for her gun when one got twixt she and her children - I wonder how those fools would have felt without one if they had made the same mistake. Mikey.

Sixgun · « **Reply #16 on:** July 28, 2003, 11:54:10 AM »

I have read and ignored most of the posts in this string but I feel it is time to add a comment.

First off, I started cowboying and wrangling horses for pack strings in the back country of Idaho way back in the late 50s when I was only 11 years old. By the time I was 13 I was doing much of it on my own and I am talking about a 13 year old boy with a riding horse dragging 10 loaded mules and gone for a week at a time. I can't remember the number of times I wished I was home where my mother could take care of me. Every time there was a wreck with that pack string, I had to figure it out and sometimes I was bawling while I was doing it, but I always did it and I never lost an animal or a load.

No one ever said that if a bear comes just talk loud and he will go away or if you run into a 2 legged varmint, talk soft and he will go away. My boss gave me a 4 inch S&W 357 mag and said, "If anyone tries to take your animals, Kill em." He also said a few things about what would happen if I shot myself or anything else I shouldn't. He said that it is easier to shoot a horse with a broken leg than trying to club it to death too. He didn't have to mention bears, I knew what to do. I had some drunk 2 legged varmints come into camp one night and wouldn't take no when I told them they couldn't borrow a horse. They sobered up real fast when I hauled out that 357.

I never had any close encounters with bears back then. I saw lots of them but they were always running away and very shy.

I have been involved with Boy Scouts one way or another for the last 15 years. I have 6 boys and that was where they were so that is where I was. I started having lots of bear encounters while out with the boys and finally got a 44 mag. The 357 didn't feel big enough anymore. A couple of years ago I got inbetween a sow and her cub. I was on a horse and my partner was on a horse and we had 15 boy scouts comming down the trail behind us about a mile.

We jumped her and the cub out of the bottom of the crick bed and the cub went to the left aroung the hill land she went streight up. She stopped up there and said that she knew that we had her cub. We said we didn't but she didn't believe us and started popping her teeth and and swinging her head. My pard got off his horse and shot close to her with his 357, 5 times. At each shot she went a little higher up the mountain a little farther but not too much. After the fifth shot she decided she'd had enough and came barreling down the hill right at us. She was taking 20 feet to the jump. I hauled out my 44 and put one shot right in front of her and there was so much dust we couldn't even see her. When the dust cleared she was running up the mountain as fast as she could go and didn't stop until she went over the top.

I guess what all this is trying to say is:

When you go into the wilderness, take a gun.
If you are going to carry a gun, carry one big enough to do the job.
Guns are good tools to get you out of tight spots with bears and maybe even 2 legged jerks.

Sixgun

willis5 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 28, 2003, 02:04:38 PM »

Sixgun, I enjoyed the post. Thanks.

Mikey · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2003, 05:25:53 AM »

Thanks for that post. Mikey.

Deaf Smith · « **Reply #19 on:** August 05, 2003, 06:45:01 PM »

but get and use a heavy bullet what you need espesially with bears is penatration. A good 180 or 200 grain bullet at a good volicity should do that.
Myself I like the federal loads hard cast lead bullets in heavy bullets. Not sure if they are still made but the were a preium ammo and worked quite well for me. Especially in 41 magnum.
Deaf Smith
Good luck and have fun on the trail
You may want to look into a concielment rig for that gun as some parts of the trail are "rated" as gun free zones ME? I'm in the woods I carry a gun no matter what the rules.