Author Topic: In the "real world" how accurate is a .223 handi? (Read 2938 times)

dcnewyork · « **on:** December 02, 2007, 12:50:10 PM »

My buddy has a handi in .223 with some cheap scope on it. He is always going on and on about how super accurate it is and how great he is at shooting it. I am not sure what rate of twist is for it but I am pretty sure he shoots light weight bullets.

I have an AR-15 with a match grade Hbar on it good scope and its free floated. I shoot 68gr handloads and practice all the time. I get sick of him always saying how "semis are not accurate, overrated, real guns are made of wood and steel, his handi will out shoot anything, he only needs one shot...blah blah blah"

I have challenged him many times to put his money where his mouth is and he always has some lame excuse, he will not even bring his handi to my house any more.

Is this just because he knows he if full of it as far as handis and accuracy go? is it possible that his handi can out shoot a tuned AR? My best group was 10 shots into 3/8" at 100 yards (off a bench), could he possibly match this with a handi shooting walmart ammo?

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 02, 2007, 01:16:16 PM »

In a word --- MAYBE , my 223 Handi with a Bull barrel will consistently shoot 1/2" or less all day long with a $70 Barska scope , granted this is with hand loads but the Remingtom Green Box 55 gr, do just about as well .

Like with any gun there are some that are just born shooters , his Handi with a cheap scope will be in the $300 price range , compair that to what you have in your AR and consider even if it only shoots 1" or so at 100 , its still money well spent .

stimpy

JerryKo · « **Reply #2 on:** December 02, 2007, 01:18:09 PM »

Your buddy doesn't seem like he wants to challenge you so it tells me you may be the better shot. However many handis out there are very accurate. I haven't shot factory ammo, but my first handloads for a 223 handi were my last. I was only shooting 50yds with a 4x scope but after sighting in I put 5 into about .25". I probably couldn't shoot as good as you but dollar for dollar the handi's are hard to beat. I also have a Stag in 223 and I'm lucky to keep 2 1/2 inches at 50 yds with the iron sights. So as a comparison $1100 vs $250 and $100 scope, I guess the handi would win. But each to his own. Here is my sight in target. This 223 barrel was one I bought from a friend and fit good to my receiver. Oh my barrel is 1/12" twist so I couldn't shoot the 68 grainers. I use the Hornady 50 grain super explosives.

JerryKo

Bob_VT · « **Reply #3 on:** December 02, 2007, 01:22:53 PM »

I shoot both an Ultra 223 and I have a Rock River AR. Truth be known the Rock River will smoke the H & R......... BUT........... I have well over 1200 invested in the Rock River and less than 300 in the H & R.

You do not race these guns against each other but you can. I have seen people shoot single shots against AR's and I have seen people in Toyota Corolla's race a Corvette....

Just put the AR against his H & R and use out of the box ammo..... that H & R will keep up up to 150-200 yards. The H & R probably has a 1 in 12 twist (maybe a 1 in 9 on some models).

Money talks.....put a small wager on it.

JerryKo · « **Reply #4 on:** December 02, 2007, 01:33:11 PM »

By the way,...nice shooting!

JerryKo

dcnewyork · « **Reply #5 on:** December 02, 2007, 01:33:11 PM »

I am thinking about buying one in .223, I believe that it would help me conserve ammo. I wish he would come and shoot his with me so I can see for myself how accurate they are. I have a 25-06 handi, its fairly accurate but nothing to write home about.

Can the H&R's be bought with a fast twist barrel? 1x7 or 1x8? even 1x9 would be good with 62gr bullets.

JerryKo · « **Reply #6 on:** December 02, 2007, 01:38:21 PM »

I just read here somewhere that the 1/9" is available. I think there are still 1/12" being sold also so you would have to be wary or maybe specify you want the 1/9". Good luck. I'm working on a 25-06 right now. Did you use factory or handloads?

JerryKo

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #7 on:** December 02, 2007, 01:42:19 PM »

They made 1-9 twist barrel for a little while but then went to 1-12. Dale

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** December 02, 2007, 02:01:16 PM »

Not true Dale, ALL .223 current production barrels are 1:9", they switched back and forth in 2006, and the .223 Superlight accessory barrels may still be 1:12", it will be until they run out of the current run, then even they'll be 1:9.

Tim

This is in the FAQs..

Current production .223 Rem barrels are being made by Marlin with a 1:9" right-hand twist, lands are .219"-.221" and groove is .2240"-.2255". Right now they still have some 1:12" Superlight barrels. (as of 7-5-2007)

jy951 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 02, 2007, 02:08:45 PM »

i doubt you need to worry about the handi. i had a bushmaster varminter that shot great and all my friends woudl say how good their bolt actions were. we never had a contest, but i doubt their bolt actions would outshoot the varminter i had. when you consider how little a handi cost and what it takes to make a really nice barrel, you really can't expect the handi to shoot as well as a match barreled firearm.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 02, 2007, 06:43:43 PM »

In the real world...the Handi's will hold their own against most other rifles on the market...This was I believe our first postal match results...http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,34240.30.html...From a price stand point...there can be only 1...

Mac

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 03, 2007, 02:38:04 AM »

I am partial to single shot rifles. I have three .224 bolt guns that I have converted over to single shots and a Savage Model 40 that came as a single shot. I also have a couple of H&R SB2 frames with 3 barrels each. I really do not like semi-autos very much. With that said, the AR - 15 type semi-autos are amazing as far as accuracy goes, if worked on. I have a Stevens 223 with a Boyds varmint stock, rifle Basix trigger and a A & B barrel. It will shoot as well as your AR-15, maybe better, but did not cost near as much (much more that a Handi though). Of course I can not shoot five rounds as fast as you, but that is not what I like to do. As far as the Handi they get amazing accuracy out of them and they do not cost as much as yours by a long shot. Your buddy will not shoot against you because he probably has not shoot as tight of groups as you have. This could be due to his skills as much as the rifle. A $300 gun that shoots .5 MOA verses an $1000+ gun that shoots .375 groups. I guess it is a matter of what your expectations and preferences are.

PartsMan · « **Reply #12 on:** December 03, 2007, 03:30:52 AM »

Its not me is it?

I have never seen a need to shoot a 10 shot group from my single shot.
It will however put 3 or 5 shot groups inside .5" very consistantly.
Also it has a "trashco" scope on it.

It would be very difficult to shoot 3/8" with a break action rifle. (some can do it though)
You can shoot a whole clip with your finger on the trigger and the target in your scope.
A Handi-man must pick his rifle up, load it and find his target again.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 03, 2007, 05:28:04 AM »

Partsman is correct...Just to make it fair to him...why don't you load 1 round at a time and then shoot against him...

Mac

billy_56081 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 03, 2007, 11:03:07 AM »

Great looking group Partsman. How did you measure that group? It appears to be 1/2" outside in the picture. If it were truly 1/2" outside to outside then you need to subtract .224 from it to give your true group size which would be .276" No matter what that is a very nice group.

PartsMan · « **Reply #15 on:** December 03, 2007, 11:24:04 AM »

Quote from: billy_56081 on December 03, 2007, 11:03:07 AM

Great looking group Partsman. How did you measure that group? It appears to be 1/2" outside in the picture. If it were truly 1/2" outside to outside then you need to subtract .224 from it to give your true group size which would be .276" No matter what that is a very nice group.

That's her best group yet.
Consistently it shoots .5" or less.

trotterlg · « **Reply #16 on:** December 03, 2007, 01:30:55 PM »

dcnewyork: Remember, asking someone how their rifle groups is like asking someone how big the fish was they caught, only the fish gets bigger and the group gets smaller. Only group I believe is one I have watched being shot. Larry

Spanky · « **Reply #17 on:** December 03, 2007, 01:41:26 PM »

Nice shooting PartsMan!!
I have a .223 bull and it will drive tacks too.
For the money you can't beat 'em.

Spanky

MSP Ret · « **Reply #18 on:** December 03, 2007, 03:02:52 PM »

My "real world" H&R/NEF .223 Coyote gun with a 22" standard contour barrel and a fixed power 4x Leupold scope will consistently keep 3 to 5 shots or possibly more shots together so you can cover them with a dime, IF I do my part (I have never tried 10 shot groups, but have shot several small groups, one after another).
The answer to your question is yes, I think a good shooting .223 H&R could keep up with your good shooting AR, if both were shot by good shooters. You have a nice shooting gun there and hopefully someday I will have one similar to it, but for now this is what I can afford, and it shoots, and it shoots WELL!!!!....<><....

Thanks for the help Tim!!!....<><....

dcnewyork · « **Reply #19 on:** December 04, 2007, 01:48:32 PM »

Those are some nice groups guys! I never really thought about the whole having to move off the gun to reload and than realign the sights again; with my AR I just settle in and keep squeezing the trigger.

If I was to buy a handi, should I buy a regular contour or heavy barrel? Obviously they group well, but how well do they hold zero? I am thinking about just buying a new barrel for my 25-06 frame, or should I just buy a whole new gun?

For the record I only have about $650 tied up in my AR; I was able to wheel and deal to get some sweet parts for a small price.

bigjeepman · « **Reply #20 on:** December 04, 2007, 03:27:10 PM »

I have both barrels in .223 Handi rifles. They both shoot very well but I prefer the bull barrel. At the range, it takes more shots to heat up and in the field, it just feels better balanced. It is strictly a personal opinion. I do not think you can make a bad choice with either one.

bjm

Steve P · « **Reply #21 on:** December 05, 2007, 10:14:51 AM »

I have not shot my .223 on paper other than to get the scope dialed in and once it hit where I wanted it, I went on to steel targets. I was shooting a silhouette big bore pig that was sitting out at 480 yards. My handi kept all shots in a nice cluster in the heart area. I will guestimate the group at under 6". If it can consistently hit that steel target out there, it will hit a coyote out there. I have my moneys worth. Oh, it was Federal American Eagle ammo. I have not tried any hand loads yet.

Steve

MSP Ret · « **Reply #22 on:** December 05, 2007, 10:26:47 AM »

I have a Bull Barrel .223, an Ultra .223, and a standard contour barrel .223. For coyote hunting and carrying in the woods and fields I prefer the standard contour but if I were to shoot a long string I guess the Bull barrel would stay cooler longer, but for me, primarily a hunter, the first or second shot is what counts and the standard contour does fine for that. However, get what YOU want, that is the only way you will be happy. Perhaps keep an eye out on this forum for a .223 barrel and try it on your frame and shoot it, if you do not like it for weight, contour, or fit, you could always sell it here and try another....<><....

saltydog · « **Reply #23 on:** December 06, 2007, 05:08:30 AM »

The car race analogy of a Chevy Corvette vs Toyota Corolla is doesn't hold water for me when discussing accuracy as I see both rifles as rifles with the issue being a bolt/lug vs a break-open design more of a Chevy vs Ford issue. We need to equalize the optics as iron sights vs even a cheap scope is not an equal case in most situations. What we have is a case of a one of the worlds most inherently accurate semi auto rifles (AR15) vs one of the most cost effective break open single shot rifles ( 1871 H&R). What is impressive is while the receiver and trigger of the NEF is clearly not up to the standards of many more costly break open rifles the darn rifles as a whole group shoot accurately. So for me it comes down to how well the shooter can shoot in most cases and my guess is your friend is uncomfortable shooting against you. However I bet there are many on this forum who would be glad to take you up anytime. In the field I usually give my friend the first shot at the running rabbit when he has his handi and I have a semi auto as if he misses I can track and get off several more before he can reload.

v8r · « **Reply #24 on:** December 06, 2007, 02:06:04 PM »

how do the 1-9 barrels shoot compared to the 1-12.I have a older ultra and would like to shoot some heavier bullets for coyote.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** December 06, 2007, 02:18:18 PM »

The heaviest, or more appropriately, the longest bullet, that I recollect is a 73gr, but that would depend a lot on the bullet style and like I said, length, there's a thread in the handloading forum about 1:9" twist in other firearms and many say 68-69gr is the heaviest that will shoot good. One member recently got great accuracy out of 70gr bullets in the 1:9 H&R, so it's not impossible, just needs to be the right bullet and load to shoot good. On the other hand, most folks have no problems getting the 1:9" barrels to shoot the same lighter bullets, 40-55gr, that shoot well in the 1:12" barrels.

Recommended heavier bullets that have a good track record reported by many in their 1:12" barrels are the 60gr Nosler Partition, 60gr Vmax, 63gr Sierra Varminter #1370, and the 64gr Win Power Point.

Tim

carbineman · « **Reply #26 on:** December 06, 2007, 06:10:01 PM »

Quote from: MSP Ret on December 03, 2007, 03:02:52 PM

My "real world" H&R/NEF .223 Coyote gun with a 22" standard contour barrel and a fixed power 4x Leupold scope will consistently keep 3 to 5 shots or possibly more shots together so you can cover them with a dime, IF I do my part (I have never tried 10 shot groups, but have shot several small groups, one after another).
The answer to your question is yes, I think a good shooting .223 H&R could keep up with your good shooting AR, if both were shot by good shooters. You have a nice shooting gun there and hopefully someday I will have one similar to it, but for now this is what I can afford, and it shoots, and it shoots WELL!!!!....<><....

Thanks for the help Tim!!!....<><....

MSP, Our handi's/toppers may not be worth much but your dime is worth a dollar+ at this time. Have any more you want to get rid of?

PartsMan · « **Reply #27 on:** December 07, 2007, 03:08:15 AM »

Quote from: v8r on December 06, 2007, 02:06:04 PM

how do the 1-9 barrels shoot compared to the 1-12.I have a older ultra and would like to shoot some heavier bullets for coyote.

Mine is a 1 in 9".
I have not worked up any heavy bullets.
It's hard to get exited about them when it shoots 55s so well.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #28 on:** December 07, 2007, 07:50:30 AM »

Carbineman, I am not a numismatist but I do like old things, I have a few more old coins, not a lot but a handful, they unfortunately are not for sale, like my Handis I am going to keep them for a while. Thanks for the info on the old silver Mercury head dime being worth a dollar+, I had no information on the value of the dime or the other old coins I have....<><....

carbineman · « **Reply #29 on:** December 07, 2007, 12:56:41 PM »

Quote from: MSP Ret on December 07, 2007, 07:50:30 AM

Carbineman, I am not a numismatist but I do like old things, I have a few more old coins, not a lot but a handful, they unfortunately are not for sale, like my Handis I am going to keep them for a while. Thanks for the info on the old silver Mercury head dime being with a dollar, I had no information on the value of the dime or the other old coins I have....<><....

Check out www.coinflation.com for metal value.