Author Topic: Bad accuracy in a 22 Hornet H&R (Read 5610 times)

JohnnySweden · « **Reply #30 on:** November 03, 2007, 12:58:18 PM »

Please keep you fingers crossed for me because tomorrow I will be off to the range and try the Hornet without a frontend.

I hope this will solve my problem.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #31 on:** November 03, 2007, 01:09:30 PM »

Fingers, toes, legs, arms and eyes all crossed for ya, Good Luck!!

Tim

JohnnySweden · « **Reply #32 on:** November 04, 2007, 05:31:15 AM »

Sorry to say it didn't work out.

I shot the rifle from a not attached bipod hold under the receiver so close it touched the trigger guard but still.....lousy accuracy...

At 80 meters (like 90 yards) I have three shots groups around 4.00"...

I tried three different loads but non of them were better then another, using a fore end or not didn't matter.

So, what next...?

I will try to make the barrel more clean then every, not only using the bore snake but also try to use some chemicals to see if this might help? Otherwise I'm not sure what to do about it, can it be the lockup to the receiver or perhaps just a bad barrel? Should I try with very light loads, 6-7 grains powder behind a 40 gn bullet?

Any other suggestions...?

BTW - here my special little guy, my son Erik aged 2 (and a half), he really likes this rifle anyway but I guess its just because its small enough to be handled by him. He says it will be the first rifle he will use when he is big enough to shoot by himself...*LOL*

quickdtoo · « **Reply #33 on:** November 04, 2007, 06:25:11 AM »

If you're just cleaning with the boresnake, it's likely not cleaning it very well, get some Forrest Bore Foam or similar product by Milfoam and give it a good overnight treatment, repeat until patches are clean the following day after leaving it in overnight.

Tim

http://www.milfoam.fi/

JohnnySweden · « **Reply #34 on:** November 04, 2007, 06:44:16 AM »

Can just a dirty bore explain this kind of accuracy...?

How accurate are those rifles in 22 Hornet anyway..?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #35 on:** November 04, 2007, 07:03:30 AM »

A fouled bore could very well be the problem, mine will put 10 shots inside and inch at 100yds, with most of em inside ½", using the 35gr Vmax and 12.5gr Lil'gun. There are numerous threads on Hornet accuracy, it's one of the most popular chamberings in a Handi.

Tim

JohnnySweden · « **Reply #36 on:** November 04, 2007, 10:37:09 AM »

My dear friends, I have a confession to make - am a lousy reloader...

Later this afternoon I visited a neighbor asking for some advice about my rifle, I don't usually talk so much with him because am outgoing and he is somewhat of an quiet old geezer but he sure does know his ways around firearms - and he does reload himself.

Always open for any advice I went over to him showing him my rifle, ammo and other equipment..

First of all my cases was not put into a proper shape before reloading, as you can see of the pic I had no idea that the tool was adjustable so I used it in just the same shape as the first owner had put it, giving a VERY low shoulder on the cases.

I didn't reflect upon this because I thought it just didn't matter and I had a lot of confidence in the simplicity of the Lee kits so I thought it readjusted itself in a proper way when I seated the bullet, the rounds did look different from factory ammo, but after all they were reloaded so why shouldn't it?

The case in the middle is one I made after the discovery of the adjustment, the round on the far left is a Winchester factory one that I use for reference.

The next thing was that I did not seat the primer deep enough, being afraid it would go off during the process I guess. My neighbor shot one of so I could see what happen and realize that it wasn't dangerous at all. The bad seating of the primer could explain all the residue of gunpowder in the barrel just after a few shots.

One is never to old to learn I guess, but after all, this is my first and only centerfire ever and I have never reloaded before.

First time at the range, two weeks ago, I used both reloaded ammo and factory rounds but I didn't shoot the rifle without the fore end removed. Today I only used my own (crappy) ammo but did have the fore end removed.

What about trying again with proper reloaded ammo and the fore end off...?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #37 on:** November 04, 2007, 10:52:40 AM »

That would explain it, back to square one and I bet it does great!! Don't feel bad, I must have crushed 6 or 8 Hornet cases before I got my die set properly, it's real fragile stuff. I'd start with some new brass tho, Hornet brass is pretty thin and doesn't last too long in normal reloading, it may have been overworked to the point of case seperations, wouldn't hurt a bit to start with some fresh brass or once fired factory.

Hang in there, you'll whip it yet!!

Tim

SM Bob · « **Reply #38 on:** November 04, 2007, 10:54:48 AM »

Johnny,
I'm sure both of these issues would make a huge difference in accuracy. I bet your Hornet will
be a real sweet shooter now! We all live and learn. Good luck and good shooting Pal!

Robert

Fred M · « **Reply #39 on:** November 04, 2007, 04:22:54 PM »

Johnny.
It would be of great help if you inluded a picture of a fired case from your rifle.

The case on the right looks like an improved shoulder. Is your rifle chambered for the Hornet imp. or AI. Or your die is an imp. die. Either way would be like a square peck in a round hole.

Yes by all means give the rifle a super clean bore job. Nothing destroys accuracy like a badly fouled bore.

dumgunny · « **Reply #40 on:** November 04, 2007, 07:18:51 PM »

WOW!,
With all those beautiful old drilling's and other Rifles and single shot pistols chambered in .22 Hornet that we see coming out of Europe It is shocking that Norma doesn't load it anymore!

JohnnySweden · « **Reply #41 on:** November 04, 2007, 10:09:31 PM »

Good morning !!

Quote

Is your rifle chambered for the Hornet imp. or AI. Or your die is an imp. die.

I use a standard Lee Loader, I presume its a normal Hornet...?

As far as I know the rifle is chambered for a normal Hornet but how do I tell for sure...?

(The case on the pic, far right, is not fired but a new one made with the Lee Loader when I didn't adjust the tool in a proper way)

Quote

It is shocking that Norma doesn't load it anymore!

Its nothing less then a shame..

BTW I have something to share with you about this matter...

When searching for the correct powder (110) I rang all the gun stores around home but nobody had suitable powders for the Hornet in stock. Finally I found this little dealer a few hours drive up the country who said he had one bottle of the 110 on the shelf. I asked him to kept if there for me while I drove to him. "Don't you worry he said, its been here for a decade so it wont go away this afternoon either, unless you buy it".

When arriving to his old shop, and just to find it was a story for itself, I soon found out that the whole shop was full of discontinued stuff, he seem to have closed the shop around 2000 but still open it once awhile if somebody calls him and ask for it.

Besides the powder, in the old blue 2 lbs bottles instead of the present black 1 lbs ones, he also had a brand new box of unused Norma factory loads !! I bought the powder and the Normas right away and also got some 45 grains SAKO bullets almost for free. He have had those for discount since back in 94 he told me.

GatCat · « **Reply #42 on:** November 04, 2007, 10:45:01 PM »

Johnny,did you buy the die set brand new? If used, did it come with the rifle? The reason I ask is that the shoulder you formed sure looks like a .22 K Hornet, set too far back, of course. If the dies were "used", and not marked as a "K" is it possible that somewhere in their past someone had a Hornet rechambered to a "K", and reamed the die also. Particularly where you live, where the supply of goods is limited, that seems like a possibility.
As Fred mentioned, post a picture of a factory round fired in your rifle. If the brass is the same shape as an unfired round, at least we all know that your chamber is unmodified.
After you clean up the bore real good, give a few of the factory rounds a range test. Also, as I mentioned earlier, how is the crown ( muzzle) or your barrel? We'll get this figured out one way or another!!
Mark

JohnnySweden · « **Reply #43 on:** November 05, 2007, 01:35:20 AM »

I really must say that I appreciate all your involvement in solving my problems with this rifle - thank you all.

Here is a used case from a factory load shot one time only in my rifle:

Besides being somewhat black/burned I think it looks pretty much like a factory round without the bullet.

BTW - the dent in the primer is not set exactly in the middle, does this matter too...?

GatCat · « **Reply #44 on:** November 05, 2007, 02:08:17 AM »

Well, at least we know you have what appears to be a standard Hornet chambering. As far as I know, the off-center primer strike is no big deal, assuming it is somewhat near center, not at the very edge of the primer.
Lets see what others think....
By the way, your English is very good, and your son looks like a fine young lad. A near- future Hare hunter for sure, then he can progress to you Elk ( our moose ) before you know it!!
Mark

aulrich · « **Reply #45 on:** November 05, 2007, 05:05:16 AM »

Here's an article on setting loading dies, it is quite well written. http://www.gunsandammomag.com/blog/blog073107/

quickdtoo · « **Reply #46 on:** November 05, 2007, 05:19:50 AM »

Here's a tutorial on using the Lee Loader, normal dies don't work exactly the same.

Tim

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/51

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #47 on:** November 05, 2007, 06:03:21 AM »

JohnnySweden - I do not have a lot more to contribute here than already has been suggested...But I want to emphasize that a very dirty bore will throw off your accuracy; a whole lot. Make sure it is cleaned very well before you shoot it again. It may take several applications of foam (that is what I recommend). The bore should not only be very shinny with no traces of copper, the rifling should be well defined. And thank you for the picture of your re-sized brass, I gotta chuckle out of it. Brought back some memories. Don't feel bad, I have made a lot of mistakes too. I had no experience, no one to show me and no Internet when I started. It was by trial and error. I also started with a Lee Kit for 22 Hornet, then added a 222. I got tired of those and bought a good single stage press and have been adding ever since. You will look back on this some day and get a good laugh out of it your self. I really like your determination and asking the questions, that is how you learn. You do not learn if you give up. With your determination, I have every confidence that you will get this worked out.

JohnnySweden · « **Reply #48 on:** November 05, 2007, 06:12:52 AM »

Thank you for your links, that is very kind of you.

I have now cleaned the bore as good as I can, the foam products you refer to is not available here but I have used a solvent instead, its said to be good for removing copper.

I used a boresnake together with it and cleaned it between each use.

If I look inside the barrel now, towards a bright light, I can clearly see the rifling and the bore does really look shining.

Regarding the Lee Loader I really like it, not that I have used other equipment or so, but its so simple and that really attracts me.

Kind of like the Handi itself, its simple and it feels enough for all possible needs, I guess I just like the simplicity so to speak.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #49 on:** November 05, 2007, 06:22:51 AM »

Johnny, can you order products from MidwayNorge?

Tim

http://www.midwaynorge.com/

JohnnySweden · « **Reply #50 on:** November 05, 2007, 07:05:45 AM »

I can order from MidwaySverige.

JohnnySweden · « **Reply #51 on:** November 11, 2007, 12:18:00 PM »

Time for a update...

The winter came this week and because of the frozen ground the range was closed this Saturday.

Actually I didn't mind because I broke my decapper from the Lee Loader kit when trying to reload a S&B case.

Now I'm waiting for a new one (bought three of them) from Lee Precision Inc and I guess they will be on their way another week or so..

It was some time ago since last time I bought stuff from the US and the worthless US currency are really a blessing, its just 6.40 Swedish Krona on one USD these days, not long ago there were a 9.80 rate -this order really came out cheap.

Meanwhile I have spoken to a gunsmith about my Hornet and if I cant work out the problem with its accuracy myself he agreed to take a look on it.

I also got a quote for some other work, like shorting the barrel from 22 inch down to 18 inch (legal minimum here). This will of course also require a new crowning and moving the fore sight to the rear. I will also order a screw cut end on the barrel to fit a sound moderator. While at him I will also order some minor work, such as mounting a swivel stud to the barrel (like welded) and a new durable coating on the surface of the barrel (don't know the word for this in English).

All this would set me back about $235 including tax (25%), or roughly 2 days salary.

If the Lee order arrives this week I will load up more ammo and if there is no frozen ground next Saturday I will try the rifle at the range a last time before I send it to the gunsmith.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #52 on:** November 11, 2007, 01:44:24 PM »

Keep up with the reports Johnny and best of luck with your .22 Hornet Handi. I also have a couple of .22 Hornets and have been using Lee Loaders for many years. I still have and occasionally use the first Lee Loader I bought 45 years ago, and it still works great!! Like you I enjoy the simplicity of Handi rifles and Lee Loaders as well....<><....

billy_56081 · « **Reply #53 on:** November 11, 2007, 01:54:59 PM »

Just another thought here, Tim (Quicktoo) may be able to answer this. Could the barrel be a .223 diameter barrel from the old hornet specs.? If any handi's were made like this slugging the bore would determine the diameter.

Fred M · « **Reply #54 on:** November 11, 2007, 02:05:19 PM »

Don't know why you would want to cut the barrel, 22" is short enough for a Handi.
IMO a Sound supressor is a waste of money on a 22 Hornet Handi

My two Handi's have 24" octagon barrels one is a Varminter 6x47, the other a 257 Roberts. The weight distribution is absolutly perfect.

A short barrel like 18" will be whippy and not too steady for off hand shooting,
a little extra weight up front will make shootin much easier. Besides how much
do 4" of barrel weigh?

And for heavens sake do not weld on the barrel, soldering a sling swivel is ok.
Or best yet use a barrel band and glue it in place with epoxy.

It only take a few thou to touch up the crown, no big deal.

Hunter NZ · « **Reply #55 on:** November 11, 2007, 09:41:53 PM »

Hi Johnny
I think I know why you broke the decapping pin in the S&B brass, the flash hole is smaller than American brass, I drilled it out to the same size as the American Winchester brass I usually use.

Don't usually disagree with you Fred but I am sending my Hornet away to have a suppressor made and fitted to it.
Reasons are
1:I don't have to wear earplugs or earmuffs when shooting it,
2:My hunting dog doesn't have his hearing damaged.
3:You usually get a second shot away if required, even with high velocity rounds, my experience with suppressors is that animal seems to be baffled not knowing where the shot has come from,
4: With the barrel trimmed, the suppressor makes up the extra length and weight
5:It allows you to shoot in semi urban areas or around domestic stock where you would usually are only allowed to shoot .22LR.
6:You can load up subsonic loads as well and use the rifle instead of a 22lr
Regards Howard

JohnnySweden · « **Reply #56 on:** November 12, 2007, 12:26:08 AM »

Quote

Could the barrel be a .223 diameter barrel from the old hornet specs.?

I don't know, could a gun smith determinate this for sure?

Quote

Don't know why you would want to cut the barrel, 22" is short enough for a Handi.

I like short barrels, they make a shorter packet for take-down and looks really cool, besides this a short barrel makes the rifle shorter when using a suppressor.

Quote

A short barrel like 18" will be whippy and not too steady for off hand shooting,
a little extra weight up front will make shootin much easier. Besides how much
do 4" of barrel weigh?

The suppressor will add extra weight to compensate the lack of barrel weight, I calculate that the suppressor will add around 8 inch, that's just four inch more then original length if I cut the barrel.

Quote

I still have and occasionally use the first Lee Loader I bought 45 years ago, and it still works great!

Gee...how old are these Lee Loaders, when did they actually hit the market...?

Quote

And for heavens sake do not weld on the barrel, soldering a sling swivel is OK.

I didn't mean weld, I just don't know the correct word in English for what I'm thinking about, perhaps soldering is the term...?
Its the same thing as when you put electronics together in making a radio, its a pencil like thing that runs hot and melt metal.
Is this "soldering", unfortunate I'm not all that good at English because its some decades ago I finished high school...*LOL*

Quote

the flash hole is smaller than American brass,

Aha...that explain things....wont use them again...that´s for sure..

About suppressors, I have one running on my 1022 and it works just great, It will reduce report down to 107 dB using RWS Z-Long (reduced loads) and it will give about 112-113 dB with CCI Standard. A normal 22LR subsonic round is without a suppressor about 138 dB.

Since the decibel scale progresses geometrically, a decrease of from 30 to 40 dB represents an order of magnitude from 900 to 1.600.

A good suppressor can reduce the sound signature to a mere 1/1000 to what it normally would have been.

Here are some pics:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h194/airgunse/damp4.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h194/airgunse/damp3.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h194/airgunse/damp2.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h194/airgunse/damp1.jpg

Here are the stats for the rifle itself:

* KID 10/22 Receiver Pins
* PC Titanium Trigger
* PC Competion Hammer
* PC Competition Sear
* Volquartsen Extended Magazine Release
* Volquartsen Recoil Buffer
* Volquartsen Automatic Bolt Release
* John Masen Recoil Pad
* Eagle Muzzle Brake (when not using the suppressor)

* Leupold EFR 3-9x33
* Polar Caps
* Sportsmatch Spiritlevel
* Sportsmatch T01C

MSP Ret · « **Reply #57 on:** November 12, 2007, 01:09:55 AM »

JohnnySweden, I was 18 years old when I bought my first Lee Loader in 1962, I am 63 now, that was a long time ago (45 years). I do not know how long Lee Loaders were made prior to that. I am sure they have lasted this long in production because they work, they last long, they are simple, and they are inexpensive. About the flash hole in S&B brass, don't throw it out with brass so hard to come by, most good reloaders are sure to make all the flash holes the same size anyway, just get a small drill bit to fit the largest flash hole in the brass you have and then drill out all the flash holes in all the brass to that uniform size, simple and easy. just try to slide small drill bits into the flash holes of fired and deprimed (decapped) brass until you get one that just slips inside the largest (or next largest) flashhole and use it to drill all the holes the same size. What are the first 2 letters of the serial number of your gun? That might help in dating it and determining the diameter of the barrel. The possibility of it being an early model with a bit larger or smaller diameter barrel causing the accuracy problem is a real possibility. Most, if not all, .22 Hornets are wonderfully accurate. And by the way, your English is wonderful, congratulations....<><....

quickdtoo · « **Reply #58 on:** November 12, 2007, 05:20:01 AM »

Quote from: JohnnySweden on October 21, 2007, 11:56:07 AM

My rifle have serial no AU486XXX, is that old enough for the 223? - I have only tried different 224.

Hodgdon Lil'gun is not imported to Sweden, we only have Vihtavuori N110 and (discontinued) Norma 123.

Hornets are very rare here, due to shortage of suitable powder and very expensive factory ammo, about $1.00 - $3.50/each.

Even brass are rare but can be imported from the US, Norma doesn't make Hornet brass any longer - I try to use Winchester or RWS, the S&B doesn´t hold up to reload, old NOS Norma (if found) demand premium cost. Ten new Winchesters or RWS are $3.20, ten new Normas about $7.50 (if found).

About 2 lbs (1 kg) powder is $57 here, good for 1700 shots, bullets (SAKO) are $14 at 100.

Anyway, the Hornets are very economical compared to other centerfires, even a 50 rnd box of 22 rimfire are $4.30 theise days (CCI Standard).

JohnnySweden · « **Reply #59 on:** November 12, 2007, 10:03:36 AM »

Today my stuff from Lee arrived, very fast indeed - thumbs up for that company.

I got three decappers, a new tool witch I intend to use only for seating the bullets, the first one will be for reshaping the cases only - by doing this I don't have to readjust the only tool every time. I also got a new Prime Chamber (old one badly worn) and a Lee Zip gizmo. With that toy I will camfer and cut my brass. Tomorrow I will get 100 brand new Rem cases from a friend.

Now I will spend rest of the week reloading and with good weather (no frost or snow) on Saturday I will try to shoot again without the fore end.

About my bad accuracy, could the barrel be worn out...?

If so, how can one tell...?