Author Topic: Does overheating your barrel really damage it? (Read 3351 times)

teddy12b · « **on:** October 08, 2007, 11:21:05 AM »

If you take a rifle and just fire 50 rounds through it about as fast as you can reasonably accurately, will you damage that barrel? Will it's accuracy be damaged forever?

I have a nagant M44 that the barrel gets untouchably hot after 10 rounds and it's not like I'm expecting it to be a tack driver to begin with, but will it ruin the gun?

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** October 08, 2007, 11:25:38 AM »

No not really.

TribReady · « **Reply #2 on:** October 08, 2007, 11:26:17 AM »

I've not heard of that until you get it literally "RED" hot.
Obviously, accuracy is affected by a hot barrel, but you can't ruin it, I don't think.

Think of that M44 (or similar M38, M91/30) during WWII. Think of the rounds pushed thru constantly while defending Stalingrad or taking Berlin. It held up enough for us to use now. Shoot away and heat 'er up!

Brithunter · « **Reply #3 on:** October 08, 2007, 12:22:18 PM »

Hmmm if you shoot a rifle till it's hot enough you will damage the barrel especially the throat. The original Cordite proellent had a high nitro gliserene (spelling) content and the heat of rapid fire actually cause the surface of the barrel steel to craze and almost melt, this weaken metal was hit by high pressure and a projectile which then drags particles of the barrel steel down the barrel. this of coure accelerated the wear. if you care to search you will find documented reasearch into this.

Rangr44 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 08, 2007, 12:59:44 PM »

Some cartridges, like the.220 Swift, are notorious for the above described throat erosion.

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2007, 01:55:09 PM »

I am not sure you have to shoot a barrel to red hot to warp it. I myself never shoot a barrel to the point of red hot. I have been known to shoot till you could not hold it for more than a few seconds. I don't believe that would hurt it but I really don't think you want to shoot 50 rounds non stop with out a cool down period. Why take the chance of ruining the barrel. It is not like you have Nazis running at you full force and you have to defend your life. Dale

Zachary · « **Reply #6 on:** October 08, 2007, 02:13:28 PM »

The only time that my barrels tend to heat up is only when at the range (especially on a hot day) and never when hunting. Also, the amount of shots that it takes to get a barrel hot depends on the cartridge and the thickness of the barrel. You can shoot a .22LR all day long and the barrel might warm up at best, or take 10 shots with a 7mm Rem Mag and you can burn your finger when you touch the barrel.

Getting back to your specific question, whether permanent damage can occur when you barrel gets hot, I have no scientific data to give you. I can say this - whenever my barrels get hot, their accuracy gets worse. In fact, the hotter the barrel, the worse the accuracy. I own many guns from different makes, and this applies to all of them. But does it cause permanent damage? I really can't tell you, but I would imagine that when a barrel gets really hot, it does so not only from the heat of the powder, but also from the friction from the bullet going down the barrel.

I also tend to think of hot barrels like hot engines. With engines, when they get really hot, then it can cause serious damage. The hotter the engine, the more wear and tear, and the faster it can be permanently damaged. A barrel is also a metal. The hotter it gets from the powder and the friction from the bullet, then I think the faster it can be permanently damaged as well.

Zachary

teddy12b · « **Reply #7 on:** October 08, 2007, 03:52:25 PM »

Lots of good information here.

What about chrome lined barrels? Say I take my AR out and run 2 full mags through it, then let it cool. Is that going to affect the accuracy?

trotterlg · « **Reply #8 on:** October 08, 2007, 06:06:23 PM »

I've shot an M14 so hot that you had to carry it by the sling and the barrel turned chalky white. Still shot just fine when it cooled down. Our 50's had asbestose gloves with them to use changing barrels when they got hot, they shot fine when they cooled off also. We shot 155's until the recoil oil boiled and a round would cook off if you left it in too long, they shot fine too. You may shoot the throat out, but it's probably from the number or rounds not how hot you it got. Larry

Questor · « **Reply #9 on:** October 09, 2007, 04:57:27 AM »

A friend of mine shoots prairie dogs in a very aggressive way. He just shoots and shoots and shoots and doesn't take a break until there are no more dogs. His attitude toward barrels is very interesting: Barrels are cheap. If I wear one out I just pay $300 and get another one. That makes a lot of sense considering he's shooting 22-250 by the thousands. With all the other expenses of a prairie dog trip, $300 isn't much at all.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #10 on:** October 09, 2007, 06:55:08 AM »

Last time I looked in MY pocketbook, $300 was considerably more than chump change.
Heat is the enemy of barrels. That's been documented so many times that I'm curious why it's even being discussed here. "Shooting okay" isn't what I'd call an exact evaluation of a barrels performance. One of the reasons they started chrome lining the early Swift barrels was the cartridge's propensity for washing out barrels. (losing accuracy)
Since, to some, $300 is only chum change, buy a new factory rifle and have a smith show you the barrel with a bore scope. Then go shoot it 50 times in rapid succession and look at it again with the bore scope. Then tell us what you see.

Questor · « **Reply #11 on:** October 09, 2007, 07:15:28 AM »

My point is that if you shoot a lot, then $300 isn't a lot of money. If you shoot a lot and $300 is a lot of money, then you're probably better off with a different hobby. If you shoot 1500 rounds of 22-250 at a South Dakota prairie dog hunt in three days while camping in your RV, then $300 isn't much to consider.

All those old comparisons of 220 Swift washing out barrels are invalid today. Powders are better now. Besides, the original post was for a Nagant. It's a 2700fps bullet. The whole gun is worth less than $100, so anyone who can afford to shoot centerfire should be able to afford a Nagant and a couple of cases of ammo.

Even with the crappy metals used in the Nagant, the barrel should last quite a while.

There are a couple of guys that shoot at my range and they go through about four hundred rounds at one session with one Nagant. That gun is shot as fast as it can be reloaded by these plinkers. The gun still shoots as well today as when they got it a couple of years ago. That's not saying much, but it does seem to be wearing well.

Brithunter · « **Reply #12 on:** October 09, 2007, 08:00:45 AM »

Quote

There are a couple of guys that shoot at my range and they go through about four hundred rounds at one session with one Nagant. That gun is shot as fast as it can be reloaded by these plinkers. The gun still shoots as well today as when they got it a couple of years ago. That's not saying much, but it does seem to be wearing well.

I see that anything made in Russia was obviously of poor quality, yet the Mosin Nagants I have seen and owned made not under the threat of immediate overrun by German troops were of high quality. The Polish made M44 I had wasa extremly accurate when good quality ammuntiton was used.

Now if you are to go to sites of barrel makers like Border barrels you will find out all about heat craze cracking in modern stainless barrels this genrally occurse in the throat as that's where most heat is concentrated. However it seems that certain members know much better so it's now a waste of time trying to help them improve their knowledge.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** October 09, 2007, 08:26:40 AM »

some powder is more damaging than others ( 220 swift issues) and erode faster , but they seem to be the ones that make bullets go really fast . We shot IMHSA and would get bbls hot , real hot then lay a rag on the bbl and pour ice water on them to cool them with no ill effect .
you might consider most bbls are good for around 1500 or less shots and the faster you send rounds down the tube the faster you reach the magic number !
the big ? is when does the bbl start to loose that one hole accy. and can you live with less ?
so what am i saying ? don't confuse a hot bbl with normal wear if you shoot alot ! at one time ! with hot loads ! and abrasive powder !

Graybeard · « **Reply #14 on:** October 09, 2007, 08:47:55 AM »

Quote

you might consider most bbls are good for around 1500 or less shots and the faster you send rounds down the tube the faster you reach the magic number !

I vehemently disagree with that statement and have no clue where you came up with such a number. Had you gotten your decimal point one digit further to the right and said 15,000 I'd be more likely to agree with you but even that is not necessarily enough.

If but ONLY if you are a top rated benchrest competitor then that number you gave has some merit as they are expecting groups of less than 1/10" at 100 yards for ten shots and losing 1/10" is the difference in winning and losing. But even to a varmint hunter or long range target competitor that's hardly a concern.

Most rifles these days have really good steels and are made to last a really long time. Rounds like the .223 cased rounds and those on the .308 and .30-06 case when used for plinking, casual target shooting and hunting should easily last 15,000-20,000 rounds with fine accuracy for the uses to which it is being put. Yes really extented sessions of shooting with the barrel getting too hot to hold onto and just continuing on and on and on will somewhat shorten that life but not by huge amounts. What it will do is burn out the throat more quickly and that will eventually lead to reduced accuracy but not for many thousands of rounds.

Now rounds like the .22-250 and .220 Swift and anything on the monster cases like the RUMs and .378 Whby case and such or real small bores on the full H&H case like say a .257 STW are also gonna wear much faster than those on standard cases. But even then for most any use that the majority of users will put the rifle to they should last with fine accuracy to a couple thousand or even twice that many rounds if otherwise properly taken care of.

For most of us we should live so long and shoot so many rounds as to wear out our barrels. If we do we've expended so much money on ammo even if reloads that the cost of a new barrel would pale in comparison.

~Ace~ · « **Reply #15 on:** October 09, 2007, 08:52:29 AM »

Ignore that fact it's a Barrel... Simply do a google search on how Heat effects the material it is made from... then you will not want them Hot

Heating and cooling cycles have profound effects on ALL steel alloys, and a change of even 100 degrees followed by Rapid or slow cooling Changes the steel !

POI changes as it heats up because the Steel is Changing.. how hot you get it, then how slow or fast it cools will decide how close to original it returns when it again reaches normal tempature.

Most effects will be minimal, even if you get it Hot (with Most barrels) but there Will be changes.. POI can change after one extended shooting session, and you have to adjust the scope to bring it back. With a gun that see's Lots of varmint shooting, most all changes will be made in the first session or 2, and further changes would most likely be minimal, except the accelerated throat erosion, that is the equivelent to heating a piece of iron and forging it with a hammer.

~Ace~

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** October 09, 2007, 09:23:02 AM »

yes i dropped a 0 thanks for catching it ! And i agree the quality of the bbl would also effect the rate of deterioration .
i have read this in several articles , and as noted i said the accy. would go from one hole first and it would be what you could live with !
I have on one occasion ( took part ) shot 1000's of 223 thru. 2 M-16's , two national guard officers showed up at the range with ammo cans full of ammo and said they had to shoot it up , needed the empties to turn in , they had a car trunk full of numerous wooden crates with i believe 4 cans each or so . they had a lady with a machine to load mags . they ask if i wanted to shoot , to say it was a ball is an understatement ! these bbls got hot real hot ! but we were hitting what we shot at out to 300 yards .
the throat damage is real and different powders effect the rate , as do other factors !
the hammer effect ? it would be a copper and lead hammer , it would seem a blow torch effect would seem more likely much like the effect on a top strap of a revolver .
As a side note some say more bbls are ruined by improper cleaning than over shooting . maybe .

Questor · « **Reply #17 on:** October 09, 2007, 10:02:33 AM »

From reading the old articles about rifles made before about 1945, they did wear out rather quickly, like in the low thousands. There were lots of articles about how target rifle shooters wore their 30-06 barrels out in 2000 to 3000 rounds.

My friend the enthusiastic prairie dog shooter uses stainless barrels and they take several years of heavy shooting to wear to the point where he rationalizes getting a new gun.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** October 09, 2007, 10:07:36 AM »

Questor , how long does it take him to save up for the new gun ?

Questor · « **Reply #19 on:** October 10, 2007, 07:40:53 AM »

Depends on the gun. Either an impulse buy, as in the case of the Nagant, or a year or more, as in the case of a custom gun.

Questor · « **Reply #20 on:** October 10, 2007, 07:44:17 AM »

Oh, you probably meant the prairie dog shooter. It's actually moot. I don't believe he's ever worn out a stainless steel barrelled gun. The important thing is his attitude that a barrel is a minor expense when all other things are considered. He's a guy of ordinary means. Blue collar type. Nice guy. Not raking in the big bucks, and seems to make responsible use of his income. Never has all the latest toys, just the toys he wants to play with and wear out if necessary.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #21 on:** October 11, 2007, 10:44:13 AM »

Are we comparing apples and oranges or what? On the one hand we're talking about some $50 beater that you can use as a tomato stake if it doesn't shoot (and one that I certainly wouldn't take on some Pdog shoot) and on the other we're talking about stainless barreled rifles for popping Pdogs at extended ranges. And FWIW, I have shot out the barrel of a Pdog rifle. And it took more than any 1500 rounds to do it. When I sent it to be re-barreled, it was still shooting an inch but it was a sloppy inch with an occasional round fudging out to an 1 1/8th" or even 1 1/4". And, again,FWIW it cost me more than any $300 to have it done.
Ace pretty well spelled it out and anyone that has had to change a grate in a wood burning fire place or stove knows that you don't get steel hot without it eroding.
Trying to validate real world shooting with bench rest stats just doesn't compute. Not knocking the bench rest guys at all but they live in their own world and march to their own tune.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #22 on:** October 12, 2007, 02:17:11 AM »

Questor he sounds like me , the closer i get to a new one the quicker i find fault with the old one !

Questor · « **Reply #23 on:** October 12, 2007, 03:59:32 AM »

A little perspective is important in this discussion. The Nagant rifle plus about 1600 rounds of ammo can (or could until recently) be bought for about $300. If you're looking for a centerfire plinker it's a great idea to use these surplus rifles and whatever available ammo there is in it. It's a great value for shooters of cans and rotting melons.

teddy12b · « **Reply #24 on:** October 12, 2007, 04:41:59 AM »

I used the nagant as an example in this case simply because it's the beater in the cabinet. I'd just the same see how far I could throw the thing as shoot it, but on the other hand I have a savage 12bvss 223 that I completely baby. I want the 223 to remain as accurate as possible and I don't want to damage it in any way. I was using the example of the nagant thinking it would apply to any bolt action, but I'd abuse that rifle first before I would any other that I really liked.

On occasion I try a new kind of bullet and load some ammo that just doesn't shoot well. The best way to get rid of the junk bullets and get your brass back is to start shooting. I just didn't know if I should be letting the barrel cool or just run the ammo through the gun like it's a job that needs done. If I just ran 50 - 100 rounds through the gun without giving the gun a chance to cool how damaging would that be?

Questor · « **Reply #25 on:** October 12, 2007, 05:43:12 AM »

Teddy12b:

The real enthusiasts who shoot high volume and like to pamper their barrels alternate two rifles. Certain fanatics will put an ice pack on the barrel to help keep it cooler. These are typically shooters of really high velocity bullets, like 22-250.

Another thing to remember is that it takes a lot of shooting to get a barrel truly hot. Anything over 140F seems hot to us, but is really nothing to a piece of steel.

Questor · « **Reply #26 on:** October 12, 2007, 05:48:06 AM »

Another note on barrel heat. My rifle's barrel will get so hot I can't handle it even if I'm not shooting it. It's mat black and on a hot sunny day, it will get too hot to touch just by being in the sunlight. My point is that being too hot to touch is not a good criterion for discerning the kind of heat that really damages a barrel.

30-06man · « **Reply #27 on:** October 12, 2007, 10:20:43 AM »

i got my 300win mag barrel red hot and i took some and pored it into a 5gal bucket and stuck the barrel into it slowly. it shot fine after i took it out. i heard the 17rem fireball will burn out a barrel though

beemanbeme · « **Reply #28 on:** October 12, 2007, 01:09:07 PM »

When I was shooting Pdogs using two 22-250s, and didn't have any shade around, I'd put a white towel over the rifle I was cooling.
I've never liked the idea of the unequal cooling of pouring cold water or air down the bore or putting ice on the outside. Seems to me like you're asking for a warped barrel.
Actually, I do the towel thing here at home. I don't like getting the snot burned out of my hand when I can avoid it by draping a towel over the rifle.
Also, if you prop a rifle up so the sun's rays can catch the lens, they'll melt the inerts.

jro45 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 13, 2007, 03:09:48 AM »

I own alot of rifles and I'll shoot them with three shots sometimes two then I'll let them cool because I want the same performance every time
When hunting I don't fire more then one or two times there for I don't heat them up past that point when shooting off a bench.
Maybe its just me but thats what I do. I don't like a hot barrel.