45 colt in a bolt action?

[magyars4]

Just wondering if anyone has ever made a bolt action in 45 colt or 454 Casull?
If so...any details.
If not, is there a reason?
As a custom job...what would be involved. Is it feasable? is it worth the potential cost? I know there are bolt action 44's. So at least with the 45,  pressures wouldn't be to high.
Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.

[Hud]

As far as the idea goes I think it would be a great rifle to have; as far as practical to build, it may be a different story. Most bolt actions have trouble feeding rimmed cartridges out of the magazine.  The exceptions to this are the Simese Mauser and the British Enfields. The bolt throw distance is much longer than is needed for the 45 colt cartridge; most folks just go with a cartridge to the capibility of the action length, something like the 45-70.

Now if you could convert a 77/44 Ruger ( I think that is what it is called) to a 45Colt that would be a great rifle. Or if you took a old Rem Model 788 in 44mag I bet you could convert that to a 45Colt.  

Now I'm thinking that a Model 788 could be converted to a 480Ruger.
Another gun on my "want list" now.

Hud

[Mikey]

magyars4:  During WWII, the British took some of their 303 Enfields and converted them to fire the 45 ACP.  The gun was called the Lancaster.  It was a silenced piece used for clasdestine activities.  On occassion you see them around or see pictures of them.  I wager they used the 45 ACP instead of the 45 Colt as the ACP was in service at that time.  However, I do not see why a 303 Brit could not be converted to fire the 45 Colt round.  Both are rimmed cases and as such the bolt may not require modification but the magazine and feeding will cause you major headaches.  You should be able to get a 303 Brit rebarrelled to the 45 Colt caliber and your boltface may not require modification, but it will take an engineering whiz to figure out how to make the 45 Colt cartridges feed properly.  

If you don't want that hassle, the No1 Mk3 303 Brit came with a magazine cutoff lever that would allow you to feed the rounds one at a time without having to modify the magazine immediately just to get it to shoot.  You would have the same type of magazine problem with a Siamese Mauser.  One fella I read about converted a 303 to the 45 ACP to mimic the Lancaster.  He simply took a 45 ACP magazine, modified the 303 magazine to accept the 45 magazine, welded it in place and the darn thing worked without a hitch.  Hope this helps.  Mikey.  

ps:  I think the 454 Casull is too high pressured a round for the old 303 action but I'm not the expert on that.  If you are looking for a big 45 bore from a rifle, Gibbs Rifle Company rebuilds 303 Brits into 45-70s and they are awesome and handsome to look at.  You may wish to consider an 'already done' situation rather than experiencing the headaches all by your self.

[gunnut69]

It would be easier to make an enfield feed the 45-70 than the 45 colt. Lengt being the problem. I've never heard of a 303 to 45 acp conversion but the Lancaster was built by the Brits. It's a submachine gun originally chambered in 9mm Parabellum. They may have converted or built some to fire the 45acp round but I am not aware of them. There was a lot of experimenting during WWII but I would wonder why anyone would convert a full size battle rifle to fire a pistol cartridge? Where did you some across this info, I am interested in the period including both world wars and read quite a lot. Your help on verifying this type info would be greatly appreciated... the gunnut69

[Mikey]

gunnut69:  I may have my terminology a bit sideways here but the Brits used that modified SMLE for covert operations.  It was silenced.  I cannot recall that it was a sub-gun - it was a modified SMLE.  There is/was a Lancaster submachine gun in 9mm so that might be where my terminology is screwing things up.  On occassion you can read about these converted SMLEs in the Shotgun News or in one of the gun magazines.  You can't mistake them once you see them.  They look like a shortened SMLE with a integrally silenced barrel.  I understand they were 'silent', and an excellent choice for covert ops.  Mikey.

[gino]

The .45 ACP conversion of the Enfield was the De Lisle carbine. It is listed in "Military Small Arms of The Twentieth Century". It was a limited production weapon for commando units. Hope this sheds a little light on the subject.    :-)
gino

[Mikey]

Dino:  thanks for the clarification.  I knew it was something, just not exactly what it was called.  Mikey.

[magyars4]

Thanks....
interesting comments. and information.

[Mikey]

Gary Lamberth:  You are the second fellow I have heard about who has converted a Mauser action to 444 Marlin.  The first fellow was a gunsmith in the Bronx, NY who converted a 98 wartime Mauser.  

That action was a bit longer than the 48A action and I am wondering if your overall cartridge length, which is critical, might be less critical if you had made the conversion on the longer 98 action???????  While it is true that both actions were made to handle a 57mm length cartridge I wonder if the longer 98 action would handle longer bullets in the 444.  There are some monster 400+ grain bullets now availalbe for the 444 and if I was going to convert an Mauser action to 444 I would want it to be able to handle the cartridge with the bulleets loaded as far out of the case as possible.  

What do you think about that issue.  Thanks.  Mikey.

[45LC-Man]

If I were to try and convert the Ruger 77/44 to .45 Colt would I need to work on the rotary magazine as well? It seems that it might work as well as the .44 with the rim being similar in size but the larger OAD of the Colt case might not work. Any ideas?

[gunnut69]

I seem to remember an article I read once where they were converting 7.62 nato cases into 45 acp for use with high pressure loads in a colt.  Why not simply make the same sonversion but leave the cases longer.  Perhaps even use 30-06 cases blown out.  One should easily be able to create a rimless case capable of handling 45 caliber bullets and would make getting a mauser to feed then a whole lot easier..  Of course the 45-70 in an Enfield would be even simpler.  These rifles are available and spare mags can most likely be had..  Still a 444 on a bolt is certainly intriguing...

[MrYeats]

I recently read an  article on converting 303 brass to .410 shotgun brass. This may put you on the way to the .45 cal you are looking for.
  Go to http://www.4-10.co.uk for help

[Fla Brian]

I was recently at the range shooting next to a young feller who was shooting a rifle he had built on a Remington 700 short action in .44 auto mag. Since the .44 in question is based on a cut down .308 case, bolt head size is not a problem. The only problem he really had was reworking the follower to feed reliably. If one were content to have a single shot, that would make the task even easier.

Given the pressure limitations of the .45 Colt as opposed to the auto mag, the latter offers higher performance potential.

As I recall that young man got some pretty nice groups from that rifle and a 4X scope with 180 grain bullets. I suspect it would be even better with heavier, longer bullets.

All in all, I thought it would make a darn fine hog gun and good for deer at somewhat longer ranges than a .44 mag carbine.

[45LC-Man]

What pressure limitations are you referring to? By the way, that is one of the ugliest pictures I've ever seen on your signature!  

Go Noles!

[Fla Brian]

What pressure limitations are you referring to? By the way, that is one of the ugliest pictures I've ever seen on your signature!  

Go Noles!

If'n y'all be referrin' tuh mah aveetar pitchuh, them be fightin' wurds, suh. Ah is fawced tuh remin' y'all as tuh whut happins when a Semmynole meets up wif a Gatuh.* CHOMP!!!!! Dinnuh be suhved, y'all.

Ah garontee!

Lee fuhgive me fer sayin' it, but Sherman had 'er right. Th' on'y good injun be a ... wall, y'all get th' pitchuh.

As to "pressure limitations," being serious, pressure standards for the .45 Colt range from 14,000 to 25,000 CUP, depending on firearm type. The .44 magnum comes in at 36,000, and the .308, the parent case for the .44 auto mag rates at 62,000.

Therefore, it is clear that the .44 auto mag is capable of higher performance than the .45 Colt.

Am I disparaging the .45 Colt? Of course not, but its performance potential is not as great as others that are available. Within its limitations, it's a great cartridge. I happen to love the 30-30 also, but I recognize that its performance, on a strictly objective level, is inferior to quite a few other cartridges.

*Lessen o' cawse if'n ACC offishuls is pressent an' paid fer.    

[45LC-Man]

I will have to admit that there were a couple of calls that, after further review, were questionable. However, next year you guys get to make the calls.

And as far as the limitations of the "old" .45 Colt go there has been plenty of evidence to the contrary. Safely loaded to 32,000 psi it will smoke any 40,000 psi loaded 43  (.429) magnum. and when loaded in strong revolvers such as the Redhawk or Casull there isn't even a race anymore. I thing a 77/44 in .45 Colt would be just the ticket for a small handy mountain gun.

By the way, I read somewhere last month that the Gates might start the season at the #1 spot because of their overall team speed.

[Fla Brian]

I will have to admit that there were a couple of calls that, after further review, were questionable. However, next year you guys get to make the calls.

And as far as the limitations of the "old" .45 Colt go there has been plenty of evidence to the contrary. Safely loaded to 32,000 psi it will smoke any 40,000 psi loaded 43  (.429) magnum. and when loaded in strong revolvers such as the Redhawk or Casull there isn't even a race anymore. I thing a 77/44 in .45 Colt would be just the ticket for a small handy mountain gun.

By the way, I read somewhere last month that the Gates might start the season at the #1 spot because of their overall team speed.

While I respect your right to express your opinion, I doubt that a bolt gun in .45 Colt would "smoke" a .44 Auto Mag loaded to its max potential. Besides, the rimless .44 could be made to feed reliably easier that the rimmed .45.

That having been said, I agree that a .45 Colt in a woods walking carbine would be pretty neat. Getting a rotary magazine in .45 Colt to fit within the space limitations of a magazine well designed for .44s might prove to be a problem however. Despite the fact that my primary affection is for bolt actions, I think the woods walking role for a .45 Colt carbine is better filled by one of the lever actions.

Bah th' way, them theah calls was a hole lot wuhse then "questionable." And as to us guys "getting to make the calls" next year, are you darin' to incinnyate that SEC offishuls wood be th' same kin' o' low down, cattle-rustlin,' hawse-stealin,' claim-jumpin' owlhoots as them as offishyates fer th' ACC? Wall, now, y'all be a'gettin' mah dandruff up. Mah secunds will be a'callin' on y'all's secunds if'n y'all kin git any low-down, yaller-bellied, polecat of a Semmynole fan tuh stand up fer y'all. Chuse y'all's weppins, an' we'uns kin meet own th' feeld o' honuh. Jes don' make it too early in th' mawnin.' Ah needs tuh gits mah byooty rest, y'all. Ah garontee!  :wink:  :lol:  :lol:

[45LC-Man]

You're a hoot!

I did go back and watch the entire game again and even the TV guys only disagreed on two of the calls. One was the "Leon sat on the ball on the 2 yard line" and the other was the fumble returned for a touchdown. All of the others were good calls "after further review". I wouldn't want their jobs.

I have one of the Marlin Limited 20" Octagon .45 Colt carbines and would have to agree with you on the lever action comment. I was very deep in .44 Mag at one time but once I got a .45 I sold everything I had in .44 and never looked back.

My one desire in levers is to have an 1894 stainless converted to .357/.44 B&D. Maybe one day I'll have one done.

[Fla Brian]

Frankly, I'd admire tuh own a .45 Colt lever gun, but I'm tied up with other things. If I want a pistol cartridge "walkin' around" rifle, I'll latch onto my wife's old Ruger .44 mag carbine.

As for that game, it's water over the dam. Can't be changed, so no use in dwelling on it. Here's to next year in the Swamp!  :toast:

[45LC-Man]

Next year it'll be in Tallahassee and the SEC will be officiating.

[Fla Brian]

Next year it'll be in Tallahassee and the SEC will be officiating.

OOOPS! I knew that. Just wishful thinking I guess.

[45LC-Man]

I noticed you are from Middleburg. I spent the first 18 years of my life in Jax. Thay was from 1951 to 1968 though.

[Fla Brian]

Then I only missed you by almost 30 years. Two ships passing in the night.  

I've got to admit, some of my best friends are Seminole fans, including my Pastor and his son. I pray for them all the time.    

[45LC-Man]

Boy, you sure got me on that one. I wasn't aware that one could be born again and be a Gate at the same time.    

Glad to hear from a brother with the same hobbies.

Let's move this to emails. They don't have a football link on Graybeards

Poppasamsonpc@cs.com

[Fla Brian]

You got it.