Way to Much Inactivity Here

[paul105]

Looks like I picked up a FA 757 .475, 6" magnaported (2 vs. 4 ports) Premier Grade.  Re the magnaporting (I can take it or leave it) -- had a older Larry Kelly Custom S&W M29, 5" with the ports.

Background:I have a 6" FA83, Field Grade .454.  In the .454, 300gr bullets at 1,500 - 1,600 fps (actual chronographed) are manageable.  I've shot 340's up to 1,600 fps (not quite as much fun).  I also shoot a lot of .44 Mag out of a 329 PD -- mostly 240 - 260gr over 17.0gr to 20gr of 2400. 

Question -- in relation to the above mentioned loads, what kind of recoil can I expect from a 400gr at 1,100fps -- and the 400gr at 1,300 fps?

Also, I understand that the FA revolvers are limited to 1.765 OAL.  With a 1.390 Trim to Lenth of the cases, that leaves a .375 Crimp to Meplat length.  Has anybody used any of the Montana Bullet Works .475s -- which bullet worked when crimped in the crimp grove?

TIA

Paul

[Dusty Miller]

Congrats on the new .475.  Did you get it with some specific hunting in mind or just 'cuz?

[Graybeard]

I can't answer your question directly from experience with the guns you mention but can come close. In my Taurus RB 454 vs. RB 480 I was unable to tell the difference in recoil of 325s at 1550 fps in the .454 vs 420s at 1100 in the 480. So I suspect you'll find that your 400s at 1100 to recoil less than your 340s and likely no more if not less than the 300s. Now when you move them up to 1300 fps the recoil is gonna be at least equal to the 340s you mention I suspect but likely no worse. At that level especially in an FA83 the word PAINFUL comes to mind.

When I was shooting an FA83 in .454 Casull those hot Buffalo Bore and COR-BON heavy loads where just absolutely wicked in recoil to me and the heavier ones brought blood often. For a person who prefers the single action way of delivering recoil which I don't it might be different. What hurt me bad in the FA83 wasn't at all unpleasant in the RB.

[paul105]

Gun is used (represented as 99%) -- Won't get the gun until later this weak or early next week.  Ordered Hornady Dies, Starline Brass, Hornady 325gr and 400gr bullets, RCBS Trim Pro shellholder and pilot.  Ultimately plan to shoot mostly cast (Montana Bullet Works).


Dusty,

Most just cuz.  However, if I don't get an elk during the archery season, I'll leave the rifle at home this year.  Usually carry the 329 during archery season due to the horsepower to weight ratio.  I'll carry the .475 at least once during archery season to see how uncomfortable the extra weight is  -- extra weight is to be avoided when hunting high country elk.   Usually have additional antlerless whitetail tags close by (.475 for one) -- have a nice little FA97, 4 1/4" 45 Colt that I'm dying to try on a whitetail doe (RCBS 270gr CSWC at 900 fps should do the trick) -- might even try it on elk if presented with the chance (315gr CSWC at 1,100 fps will work) -- nice little packin pistol while grouse hunting.

Graybeard

Thanks for the input.  I'll start low and work up -- i'm not real fond of the the 1,500 fps -- 1,600 fps .454 loads with 300 - 340 gr bullet -- manageable, but unpleasant to shoot.  Recoil seems to increase disproportionately as velocity is increased.  Figured 1,100 fps/400gr should be adequate for anything I might encounter (isn't that what Dustin L killed his grizzly with?


Will report back when everything gets here and I get some range time in.

Paul

[doghawg]

 Paul 105

  I just got my first FA and it's a .454 but I have a BFR .475. If you're going to shoot Montana bullets I'd like to suggest 16 gr. of HS6 under the 375 gr. LFN GC. That load clocks 1200 fps, is gentle to shoot and will consistently group under 1 1/2" at 50 yds using bags and a 30mm Ultradot.

 Now all I need is a 6" Mod 83 to try that load in.    Ain't sure about ports. Will be watching for your opinion of them.

[paul105]

Dawg,

Montana Bullet Works lists a 375gr WLNGC with a .395 nose to crimp grove length.  With a case length of 1.390 (Trim to Length) that makes the OAL 1.785 which is longer than the 1.765 Max OAL indicated by Freedom Arms.  I'm pretty sure the cyl on the Freedom Arms is shorter than the BFRs, limiting OAL in the FA.  If you get a chance, would you mind measuring your loaded OAL with the 375gr WLNGC (if that is the bullet you are using). 

I don't know much about the BFRs, other than most who own one are impressed with the quality.  With the FA tight cyl throats, sometimes OAL isn't the constraint, especially with LBT WFN style bullets -- they are full size well above the crimp grove, making sizing critical (don't know about the WLN or LFN).  Example:  a 250gr WFNGC sized .453 and seated to the crimp grove in my FA83 .454, will not seat even though the OAL is approx 1.700 vs. 1.765 Max due to the diam of the drive band in front of the crimp grove and the tight throats of the FA.

Anyway, I'll know more about cyl throat Diam when I get the gun and will order cast bullets accordingly.  Based on measurements given on Montana Bul Wks website, it looks like there are several bullets that will work OAL wise -- those with .375 or less Crimp to Nose length.

Heard good things about HS6 -- used up my can of it a while back.  Hornady list 19.5gr or VV N110 as a starting load with their 400 gr XTP at a vel of 1,100 fps from a 7 1/2" .475 FA.  I like the low blast and flash when using VV N110, and I have about six pounds of it, so that's the  load I'll start with  (Word of caution here, I had a bridging problem with VV N110 in a Dillon Sq Deal B, so be careful).

Wasn't the former Doghawg moniker due to an overindulgence in P. dogs?

Paul

[doghawg]

Yep Paul, you're right about the prairie dog shootin' excessive/compulsive behavior. I even managed to get a few  with a MK1 Ruger .22 auto this year...

You're also right about the OAL of that 375 gr. WLN GC bullet. My loaded rounds measure 1.780". There's a little bit of crimp groove still showing in front of the case mouth. Seating a little deeper and trimming cases might bring the OAL in under the wire but I'm sure there are better options.

I found out about the tight Mod 83 throats on my .454. Loaded some Montana 270 SAA bullets sized to a fat .452" and couldn't get them to chamber. There's a good excuse to buy another .45 Colt. 

Once again, I'm waiting to read what your opinion is on that ported gun. I've held back from bidding on one because of it being ported. I imagine it's a matter of personal preference. Less muzzle rise but more muzzle blast?

[Graybeard]

If you have a bullet you really want to shoot and the nose is a wee tad too long it's quite easy to either (a) just shoot .480 Ruger cases OR (b) trim .475 L cases just enough shorter than normal to crimp at a length that will work. Both are viable options and unless you're one who has just absolutely GOTTA HAVE that extra 25-50 fps of velocity that is meaningless anyway then you lose nothing by doing it and gain use of a bullet you might not be able to use in a full length case.

If you get any .475" bullet of 375 grains or more moving to 1100 fps or so which the .480 Case will easily enough do then nothing is likely to stop that bullet anyway so all more velocity can do is flatten trajectory and that is so tiny that even if you add 400 fps you'll not increase your useable range. People get all worked up over things that in the real world are of no consequence and will have no effect positive or negative to their hunting success.

[kennisondan]

 I have learned a few things I suspected here.. and am feeling more comfortable with the idea of my used Fa 475 coming in someday soon.. I have been getting ready as well.
I am glad to hear the 1100 FPs thing being said again and again, as it will be a lot easier on the old wrists and hands to do it that way, as exessive recoil may spoil what little skill I accumulated in all these years of mere 44 shooting. I also keep hearing that the recoil inmpose with the lighter bullets in the 475 is more of a torquing than the heavier 400 or so and they are pretty pleasant and accurate until you get past 1200 fps or so.. that is why I am starting around there or just below in order to get familiar with it...
are you planning on punching it up faster than that or will you follow Dustin L's lead and stick with 1100 to 1200 fps ?

when My gun comes in and I have something to report we will try to get more traffic on here..
good luck with the new gun..
dk

[paul105]

Absolutely agree with Greybeard's 2nd post above re: OAL, Bullet Length, Trimming Cases, extra 100 fps, etc.  I actually agonized over ordering .480 R vs. .475 LB cases, figuring that I would have greater bullet flexibility, and difference in velocity was meaningless with the .480R.   Decided to go with the .475 LB brass in case I ended up selling the gun to someone who wanted to use full length .475LB loads.  Also ordered a .475 pilot and shell holder for my RCBS Trim Pro.  So I will be set up to handle any situation.  I've also had good luck seating SWCs over the front drive band to avoid problems with overall length and tight chamber throats -- DO NOT DO THIS WITH RECOGNIZED LOADING MANUAL MAX CHARGES WITHOUT REDUCING POWDER CHARGE WEIGHTS -- reduced powder space increases pressure.  I hate trimming cases, and was just trying to avoid the extra work.  Also, was hoping to promote some additional discussion.

kennisondan

I guessing I'll end up with 375 to 400gr cast bullets at around 1,100 fps.  I'm supposed to get a box of factory loads with the gun -- not sure of ammo specs, but I'm guessing it'll be 400gr Horn stuff at about 1,300 fps. If not I'll work up to that level "just cuz" I gotta try it.  I'll continue to post my results/impressions, and hope you do the same.

Paul

Paul

[Graybeard]

If you guys are interested I have a bunch of .475" Hornady 325 and 400 XTPs and some cast bullets also left over after selling my RB480. They are listed in the classifieds but who knows how far down the list. If interested I can locate it and see what I was asking for them.

I'm sure I have some loaded ammo both factory and handloads but it's really too much trouble to ship to make it worth while. I'll likely some day run across someone local to let have it.

[paul105]

Gun arrived today.  It was as advertised.  Didn't appear to have been shot very much.  Got a box of ammo as part of the purchase.  They are Hornady 400 gr XTPs rated at 1,300 fps on the box flap.  Didn't want to start with the 400gr full power stuff, so I bought a box of 325gr XTP .480R from the local shop -- rated at 1,350 fps on the box flap.  Took it to the range this evening.  This FA 475 has a 6" Factory Magnaported (2 ports not 4) barrel.  I shot 4 rounds of the 325gr 480s, and 12 rounds of the 400gr 475 LBs.  Following is the target, shot offhand at 15 yards.




The lowest left shot was the first one I fired from the gun (a 325gr 480) -- this four shot group was the largest one shot at 2 3/8" Horiz.

The highest one, farther to the left was the 1st 400gr XTP (noted as 1st 400) -- little too much anticipation. 

The next four just below (noted as 2nd 400 gr 4 ea.)  was the best group I shot. 

Moved windage right, and shot the two 2.s, moved windage once more and shot the upper right hand 5 shot group (it measures 1 1/4" Horiz by 1 1/4" Vert on centers).


Remember, this gun is magnaported.   I was wearing very light golf gloves (one on each hand) to get a better grip and keep the gun from slipping in sweaty hands. I didn't find the recoil objectionable with either of the two loads tested.  Compared to my 454 with 300gr at 1,500 - 1,600 fps, there was noticibly less muzzle flip (prob due to manaports and I don't think these factory 475s are as fast as advertised).  I didn't get the knuckle busting normally associated with the 454, nor was the base of my thumb, web of my hand jammed into sharp edge at the back of the frame by the grip/cyl frame interface.  I usually hold my pinkie finger under the front edge of the grip to help reduce knuckle busting and hand web jamming.  Since I wasn't experiencing this pain, I shot the last three rounds with as high a grip as I could get and without the pinkie under the grip.  Still no knuckle busting/web jamming.  Those last three shots are the  center three in the upper right hand group of five.   

I didn't chronograph either of Hornady loads.  I'm guessing that even though the 400gr XTP is rated at 1,300 fps on the box flap, the velocity was most likely closer to 1,200 fps (or maybe even less).  When I get the brass and bullets next week, I chronograph the factory stuff along with some reloads.

Paul

 

[XTP240]

 We need pics of the gun!!!

[Dusty Miller]

Yeah!  Pictures of the gun, preferably in the hands of a buxomous blonde!!  If that is not possible, just post the picture of the blonde!!

[paul105]

Haven't taken any pictures of the gun -- just a standard FA Premier Grade 6" with ports.

I received dies on Friday, Brass this AM, and bullets this PM.  Had some brass prepped, so when the bullets arrived, I loaded up 10 rounds:


New Starline Cases
400 gr Hornady XTP Mag
WLP
19.7gr VV N110 (Horn Starting Load is 19.5gr for 1,100 fps from a 7 1/2" FA using Horn Cases, WLP primers)

The above load chronoed 1,072 fps at 5 paces and 75 def F.  The ES was 41fps.

Yesterday, I chronoed:

Hornady Factory 475 Linebaugh 400gr XTPs at 1,228 fps (81 Deg F and 5 paces, ES was 61 fps).  The box flap rates these at 1,300 fps from a 7 1/2" bbl. 
Hornady Factory 480 Ruger 325gr XTPs at 1,278 fps (only shot three).  The box flap rates these at 1,350 pfs from a 7 1/2" bbl.

I'll continue load development and post results.

Some first impressions.  I like the magnaports -- effectively reduces muzzle flip and resultant knuckle busting/web slamming.  Haven't noticed any "concussion" like you get with a muzzle brake on a rifle.  Neither have I noticed any increased muzzle blast -- i don't shoot without earplugs.  So, far this gun is more comfortable to shoot than my .454 with the same barrel length but unported.  All subject to reevaluation as load development progresses, and loads increase.

Paul

[kennisondan]

Thanks for that report. sounds good to me.
Appreciated the pics and the Chrono of the factory loads...
I got the gun and the brass and bullets came in today. also have some factory 475 and 480s same as you found.  I have not had a chance to shoot yet, darn people want me to work or some such nonsense...
I am thinking that my 4 3/4 inch non ported gun will recoil a little bit more than you reported yours to do.  Was wondering about lowering the grip.. do you feel it helps the recoil impulse significantly ? could you post a pic of the grip applied to the  gun ? thanks, also : Did you see aa different grouping etc with the different hold on the gun ? I am most interested in that and expect a change in grip causes a change in Point of impact.
I will also wear a little bit of glove to absorb the love.
I will probably try a little lighter handloads then work up toward what I experience with the factory loads, when I try them.. I am glad you did not find the recoil objectionable, by old 454 had a little jump to it if I recall correctly, but was ok in all respects... just approached it cautiously and did not overdo it to the point of developing a flinch.

[paul105]

DK,

Saw your post last night, but wanted to think about it a little bit before responding, and also needed some light for the pics you requested.

This is in response to your question only.  I’m not an expert, and am not qualified to offer “how to” grip a handgun advice.  This is the way I do it, and it works for me. 







I took these pictures with the gun in my left hand (I’m right handed) because it was easier for me to work the camera with my right hand.  I don’t shoot the .454 or .475 one handed, these are examples only.  Normally, my left hand (offhand) will be wrapped around my shooting hand with my left index finger in front of the trigger guard and my middle finger snugged up against the bottom of the trigger guard with the other fingers in between the gun hand fingers.

The picture with the little finger under the bottom of the grip shows how my hand is somewhat stretched out, kind of unnaturally.  BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT USING THIS GRIP FROM A BENCH REST – IT CAN BE VERY PAINFUL – YOUR PINKIE CAN GET SMASHED!!  It helps to keep the gun from slipping in your hand under recoil.  On my 454, the flare at the bottom of the grips has been removed, and a colt type bevel added.  This makes it much easier to get the “pinkie” grip.  It also keeps the edges of the grip from gouging you pinkie finger under recoil.  This grip is much more natural, and easier to attain with smaller grips – old model single six, new vaquero, colt saa/clones, and the FA97.  It is not as comfortable or as natural with longer grips such as the FA83, Ruger Bisley, and FA97  (the 97 is a smaller/shorter grip so it is sort of “in between”) unless you have large hands, which I don’t.

No matter where I have my little finger, I try to get as high on the grip as I can without interfering with the hammer spur, or letting my thumb accidently impede hammer fall.  With your hand this high, you have to be real careful when wearing gloves, because the hammer can hang up on the leather across the web of your hand

I also wear a light glove on my offhand, as I’ve found that the trigger guard will pinch the middle finger of the support hand under recoil.

I hold the gun with the same tension (firm, but not to the point of shaking) regardless of where I put my little finger.

If you look at the five shot group at the upper right corner of target pictured in a previous post, the upper left, and far right holes were shot “pinkie finger under”, the three in the center with all fingers snugged up against each other – i.e. no point of impact change.

I’m not sure how your 4 5/8” .475 will recoil.  Recoil is a very individual thing, and different people have different reactions to recoil depending upon the platform (barrel length, single action, double action, single shot, porting, grips, etc., etc.). 

Last night, I chronoed:
400gr Horn XTP Mag
New Starline Cases
22.0 gr VV N110
WLR

At 5 paces and 71 Deg F, Avg Vel was 1,201 fps with a ES of 51 fps.

I will stop here with VV N110 and this bullet.

FWIW, in my opinion, Mark Hargrove’s post above is worth rereading.

Paul

[kennisondan]

great thloughtful reply.. thanks.. I did go back and look at that post.. good call.. as to the pcs, I get the picture now, seems I may have used a high grip on my 454 back then... now that it is mentioned. I will pay attention to what I am doing later on tonite or tomorrow, and feed back too. when I actually shoot it I will report on that too
the grip you described with the off hand index finger around the front of the trigger guard was recently shown to me by ms. Hitman, who allowed me to shoot his 500 and it was a good way to get a bit more forward contact with the gun so as to impede it pivoting from so long a lever ( so to speak ) I found it to be a good hold that I will delve more into my self and see how it helps me..I shot for so long and so much with a standard weaver or modified weaver stance and grip interlacing the fingers I am not sure how it will work for me but I have not shot the really big hard kickers very much and none lately.. so I stand to learn a little about that.. I may be just guessing, but I bet the little 4 3/4 incher will stand up and bark a bit... I am excited to try it out.. if my work ends unexpectedly early I will run out and shoot the factory loads that I have in both cylinders.. and report..
dk

[paul105]

I opened a new thread "New 475 Linebaugh - Load Devel/Chrono Results" in the Handloading for Rifles and Handgun section below.

Thought it was probably more appropriate to post loading info in that section.

Paul