Author Topic: What is cheap about a Savage? (Read 2990 times)

kenjs1 · « **on:** July 18, 2007, 06:38:50 AM »

I hear this talk that they will not last as long as others etc... What bout them are of lesser quality or poorer design than a Remington\Winchester\Ruger\Browning etc..... What will be wearing out so that I couldn't hand one down to a grand kid for example. Not encouraging a savage bashing - nor want to offend their owners. Just wanting to understand the detractors - respectfully.

30-30man · « **Reply #1 on:** July 18, 2007, 09:08:03 AM »

The only thing I might consider cheap about them is the stocks they come with and the way the barrels are fitted to the receiver. I consider them one of if not the most accurate out of the box rifle. Yeah, they might not cost as much as the others but they'll out shoot most if not all the others. I have a Savage in 30-06 that will out shoot all of my bolt guns which include a Weatherby, Howa, Winchester, and a Browning. The best part about it is it only costs 1/3 of the price.

wcf3030 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 18, 2007, 09:20:58 AM »

I just shot my Savage Tactical in 300 Win last weekend at 200yds at well under sub MOA.
This rifle has had 934rds thru it and has not lost a beat.

Val · « **Reply #3 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:21:29 PM »

The Savage action will last as long as any other action. They are indeed very accurate rifles. The barrel nut system in a Savage is considered an advantage by some. You can easily change a barrel out at home. All you need is a set of head space gauges a good rifle vice and a barrel wrench. Many Savage owners interchange barrels. The adjustable Accu Trigger is also a winner. I own Savages, Remington 700s, Winchester Model 70s and a Ruger Tang Safety M77. I like my Savages very much. Unless you're one of those that have to have an expensive rifle (like some people aren't happy unless they have an expensive car) the Savages are an excellent choice in a rifle.

Graybeard · « **Reply #4 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:29:57 PM »

What's cheap about them? Certainly NOT the price as most of them on the shelf at the store I frequent are as expensive as the average Remington or more so. Why anyone would pay as much for one as for a Remington I'll not live long enough to figure out.

To me the action is just plain butt ugly and so are most of their stocks. That is all it takes to keep me from buying one. But I guess I've heard no one say that they wear out sooner than any other brand. The stocks seem a bit cheaper made than the other major brands and their real claim to fame if you will is that barrel attachment method they use which seems to greatly enhance accuracy so most folks who own them say.

I've shot a grand total of two Savage centerfire rifles a dealer let me take home to try before deciding to buy several years ago. Both were highly INaccurate and I bought neither. I've not really even considered one since.

EVOC ONE · « **Reply #5 on:** July 18, 2007, 01:48:02 PM »

Throughout the years I've heard Savages being criticized for mostly three reasons; cheap looking stocks and their finishes; the barrel lug; and the bolt handle positioned at the rear of the bolt where-as Remington, Winchester and Ruger position theirs more forward in the receiver. Each, however is a criticism of appearance, not its ability to provide a lifetime of service.

I do admit that I have seen some rather ugly stocks on some earlier Savages. I recall a pecan-brown color that I have seen peel like dried paint. They also had a blond finish that didn't do anything the help its reputation as an ugly duckling. This is personal opinion, of course. Frankly, in recent years I have acquired an appreciation of the older Savages for just those reasons. The company sure wasn't afraid to put something out there that was different. A product of a different era. But, I'm not sure that the looks of a rifle ever affected its ability to shoot.

Non-the-less, I have always liked Savages and currently own two; a .30-06 and .243. There is no doubt I will own others. I have shot a few Savages over the years, in addition to my own and do not recall any thoughts that I might have shot one that was inaccurate as a hunting rifle. My experience has shown that they do shoot very well out of the box. At least well enough to meet my expectations.

With the exception of my .223 Vanguard, none of my Remington 700's, Winchester Mod 70 or Mossberg (old and new versions) bolt guns shoot consistently any better that my Savages. They each shoot very well.

trotterlg · « **Reply #6 on:** July 18, 2007, 03:22:15 PM »

They can be ugly, but they do shoot, the action with the barrel nut lends it's self to the home gunsmith, set the headspace or change barrels in the basement if you like. I have one that started as a Walmart package .243, I then made it into a 22-250 and it is now a 17 Remington. In all cals it is a shooter, this is a target with 11 or 12 (I lost count) at 100 yards, the barrel is 25 inches and .500 at the muzzel, so it is not a target barrel, it will do this all day long. I would say it will last atleast as long any Remchester. Larry

Mattkc · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2007, 08:09:58 PM »

I have nothing against Savage and think they are a great value. I'm currently looking for a bolt cf rifle, I haven't owned one since the 1970's due to being a lefty and the brushy areas I mostly hunt. Today I went to a decent gun-shop that actually stocked Savage, Tikka and a Remington 700 CDL in lefty versions. For all practical purposes the Savage and Tikka's were decent guns but the 700 CDL was in a whole other league. I read all kinds of complaints about new Remington's but this gun was great. Everything about the gun was quality. The fit and finish was very good every bit as good as the Win. Model 70 I owned 40 years ago. The wood was nice with a classy satin finish and the jeweled bolt was smooth as silk. Is it worth the extra money oh yea, will this be my truck gun hell no I got plenty of "economy guns" for that. Will a quality gun out last a cheaper gun, yes if for no other reason then we tend to take better care of them. I have two cheap shotguns that gave me years of good service. One was a Mossberg 500 and the other a Spanish double, they gave me 20-25 years of service but there days are over. On the other hand my Browning Sweet Sixteen is over 50 years old and still going strong and my Citori should last a few generations. It amazes me Savages shoot as well as they do. Lets face it the profit margin on a new firearm isn't all that great no mater who makes it. If your going to produce a firearm for much less then the competition you have to make compromises. You can go to China for cheap labor or you can use less expensive materials. You can also cut down on the labor time spent on each rifle. I think the best way to judge how long a Savage will last is to go to a few gun shows and look for some old Savages in those racks full of old Remington's and Winchesters.

ncsurveyor · « **Reply #8 on:** July 18, 2007, 11:59:48 PM »

Quote from: Mattkc on July 18, 2007, 08:09:58 PM

..............but the 700 CDL was in a whole other league. I read all kinds of complaints about new Remington's but this gun was great. Everything about the gun was quality. The fit and finish was very good every bit as good as the Win. Model 70 I owned 40 years ago. The wood was nice with a classy satin finish and the jeweled bolt was smooth as silk. Is it worth the extra money oh yea, ...................

Careful, your Remlust is showing. However, I'll admit the Savage 114 American Classic gets the same feeling from some.

(btw, I still find a lot of functional, OLD savages at gun shows, along with all the rems and wins. I couldn't tell if you were alluding to the fact that you don't, or if it was an open statement giving guidance how to determine their longevity. If you are not finding them, chances are you got to the gun show too late $:-\$ )

To the original poster: Just a matter of personal preference. Nothing is going to wear out on that savage that wouldn't on another gun. Like the others say, get one, change the barrel if you want. Get an unfinished stock and do some fitting and finishing on it (if your the DIY type). Make it an heirloom you made.

As far as ugly, that's all subjective.

ms · « **Reply #9 on:** July 19, 2007, 01:05:34 AM »

I bet Zachary don't have one in his safe am laughing out loud well I type.

Savage .250 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 19, 2007, 05:48:21 AM »

" I hear this talk they will not last as long as others."
All manufactures make a "cheap" model to be competitive. To me it comes down to fit and finish. Plus, the quality of the componets being of a lesser grade. One mans cheap is another mans, that`s all i can afford."
As far as they won`t last as long goes. I`ve got a couple of Savage 99`s that are over 50 years old and a
Savage model 110 nearly that old. Still use them.
To add to the mix. The Savage 99 is an American icon as far as rifles go. In fact, part of the reason Savage
quit making them is because they cost to much to make. Labor and material costs added to their demise as well.
Cheap, as a term, covers a lot of ground and means different things but cheap to me doesn`t mean Savage.
JMO.

Zachary · « **Reply #11 on:** July 19, 2007, 06:40:06 AM »

MS, funny you should say that right when I was ready to post a reply.

Actually, NO, I don't own any Savages. I must admit, however, that I was toying with the idea about getting a Savage Long Range Precision Varminter. The reason for this, in part, is because it has an HS Stock, and the action is actually unique to the Savage line. I have never shot one, or even seen one, but I was really thinking about buying one to have it as my first Savage. Still, I don't own any Savages at the moment.

Now, let me get back to the main question - what is cheap about Savages. Well, in a word - everything. The stocks are junk, the quality control is horrible, and the bolt action is so lose it swings like a belly dancer.

Now, that said, Savages can shoot. Yes, they are shooters, and can probably outshoot most factory rifles out of the box? How is that? Well, that's an interesting question. How in the world can such a cheap gun shoot like it's worth a whole lot more? Don't ask me. Generally, you would think that the higher quality the gun, the better the accuracy. While that is generally true, Savage is the exception.

There is just way too much evidence to support that Savages can shoot great. Heck, even some of our members have posted pictures showing same. So I would never say that they are not shooters.

Savage triggers used to be junk, but now with the accutrigger, that can't be said anymore.

Like I said earlier, the LRPV has an HS Precision stock - which is a high quality stock. But at about $300 retail, you know that $1,000 for the gun is somewhat justified because of the high quality stock. Also as stated earlier, the LRPV action is unique to the Savage line. It is MUCH thicker and heavier, and has a smaller ejection port - thus, at least in theory, strengthening the action. The barrel, although tied together with the same barrel-nut system, is very thick, and, of course, the accu-trigger is much better than its predecessor. As such, although $1,000 is a lot of money for a Savage, it isn't THAT grossly overpriced.

Savage's original cheap line appears to be the new Stevens line, but does that mean that the new Savage products are much better to justify their price and compete with Remington, etc.? I honestly can't answer that right now.

Zachary

Mattkc · « **Reply #12 on:** July 19, 2007, 09:21:46 AM »

Another issue with economy guns is trade-in value, I have a Mossberg SSI in 308 and a 223 barrel. It's a decent gun but I can't find a dealer that will even consider taking it in on a trade.

Zachary · « **Reply #13 on:** July 19, 2007, 09:40:48 AM »

I don't think that would be a problem with a Savage or Stevens. Granted, they may be economy guns (with the exception of what GB and I said about Savage no longer being lower priced like the used to be, and like I said that now the Stevens line appears to be the older and original economy line of Savage), but I think that many people know Savage and would be willing to take it on a trade because so many people know and accept the Savage. I think that this is true to a lesser extent with Stevens, but still perhaps more so than with the Mossberg SSi.

Zachary

ncsurveyor · « **Reply #14 on:** July 19, 2007, 10:03:11 AM »

Quote from: Mattkc on July 19, 2007, 09:21:46 AM

Another issue with economy guns is trade-in value, I have a Mossberg SSI in 308 and a 223 barrel. It's a decent gun but I can't find a dealer that will even consider taking it in on a trade.

Lord, I hate to hijack, but, got pics of the SSI?

safetysheriff · « **Reply #15 on:** July 19, 2007, 11:52:26 AM »

i've read enough about those relatively rough barrels, a by-product of many button-rifling jobs, on Sssssaaaa; Ssssssaaaa (those) rifles such that i figure i can save enough on cleaning compound and patches to pay for the Remingtons........if they do cost any more. i think the hammer-forged barrels in Remingtons, Winchesters, and Rugers can easily be expected to outlast the Sssssaaaa

barrels when running real hotrod calibers through 'em (.243 ; .270 Win' ; 7mm Rem' mag; .22-250(?); WSSM's ; and some others. Ssssssaaaaaaa

their stocks are cheap, and the trigger group now strikes me as a 'gimmick'. i'll stick with the adjustable triggers on the Remingtons we are now buying.

if you don't want a Remington, then buy a Ruger or a Weatherby Vanguard and i think you'll still get a very decent rifle.

ss'

victorcharlie · « **Reply #16 on:** July 19, 2007, 01:09:46 PM »

Aw come on sheriff.......your really a closet Savage shooter arn't you?

Zachary · « **Reply #17 on:** July 19, 2007, 02:46:33 PM »

LOL

Him and me both.........NOT!

Zachary

H666 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2007, 01:40:05 AM »

I bought a Savage .223 couple of months ago. I had my doubts on it on account of the low prices but....this thing amazes me even still. I can agree with Zachary that there are better built rifles around and the bolt does seem a bit loose. But it shoots like any remington or even sako or Tikka I have shot, and that's saying something! I have mine fitted with a Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 scope, and it hasn't let me down yet. Mind you, it's only a few months old.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2007, 04:40:44 AM »

Quote from: Zachary on July 19, 2007, 09:40:48 AM

I don't think that would be a problem with a Savage or Stevens. Granted, they may be economy guns (with the exception of what GB and I said about Savage no longer being lower priced like the used to be, and like I said that now the Stevens line appears to be the older and original economy line of Savage), but I think that many people know Savage and would be willing to take it on a trade because so many people know and accept the Savage. I think that this is true to a lesser extent with Stevens, but still perhaps more so than with the Mossberg SSi.

Zachary

Zachary:

While I like my 308 FP...I bought it for a song at my gun dealer because it is a Savage...Savages don't hold near their value on trades...and Stevens even less...I went thru about 15 Stevens looking for a decent one...Every one I handled have major problems with it...and quite frankly I feel that any part for the higher line of the normal Savages that don't make it... winds up on the Stevens...Yes...there may be some good shooters out there...but...there is a bunch of them that have serious issues as well...more than what there should be...but...most of the folks over look this fact because they are priced extremely low...Sort of like a favorite single shot of mine...It's got to be frustrating for a bunch of folks who read about this tack driver and that tack driver only to get a run of the mill one...

I never did like any of the Savage rifles...until I got to shoot my friends 308 in the BVSS stock..so...I went and got me the one I did...It's ok...for what I spent on a like new one ($300)...but...I am totally unhappy with the stock on it..and will have to spend extra to loose the Tupperware P.O.C. that it came with..

So...what's cheap about them...On the Stevens...everything...I wouldn't go out and buy one...by the time you fix what is wrong with them...your better of just spending it up front...and having a rifle that if you did have to sell it...you won't get hurt...as bad...You will still loose a-lot of money for the regular Savage line...but you will really hate what you get for a used Stevens at most guns shops...no matter what stock it is in... On the regular Savages...besides the price...the factory Tupperware stock ...They could offer something of a bit better quality than this one...and not add very much to the price...They have improved the sloppiness in the bolt a-lot...It no longer feels like it will rattle out every time you cycle it...like the older models...but it still isn't near as good as most other bolts guns..The way most are bedded aren't real good..If they would just do them right to begin with would make them a much better product they they already are...

Other than that..for the money...Savages aren't all that bad now...and if they make a few improvements...will be much better...but...this is just my opinion...

Mac

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2007, 05:38:09 AM »

cheap ? no , value yes !
I looked and looked for a browning bolt action slug gun , ended up with a savage bolt action and glad i did . It will out shoot a Buddy's browning ! Now i paid less than he did , value not cheep !

safetysheriff · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2007, 09:32:58 AM »

Quote from: victorcharlie on July 19, 2007, 01:09:46 PM

Aw come on sheriff.......your really a closet Savage shooter arn't you?

i'd rather clean a Remington than shoot a SSSSSsssssaaaaaa

ss'

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2007, 09:38:47 AM »

shame !

jvs · « **Reply #23 on:** July 20, 2007, 01:29:10 PM »

There is absolutely no comparison between the Savages of the past and what they are spitting out of the factory now. Materials and Workmanship in some of them are head and shoulders above anything you can find new.

The Savage 340 and 840 have quite a following now, and the early 110's are far superior to the 110's they churn out now. Hold a old 110 and pick up a new 110 and then tell me which one will last longer and which one you would rather have.

Alot of older Savages carry a premium when you find them in good condition. Some of the older Stevens, such as the Model 325 don't last long on the used rack either.

I own a Savage Model 340E in .22 Hornet that is maybe 95%. I can lay you odds if I posted it for sale here in GBO, it wouldn't last a half hour at a price that would be a multiple of times what they cost new and probably twice (or more) what I paid for it. But it isn't for sale just yet.

You can't compare Savages of the past with the ones that were produced after Savage emerged from Bankruptcy. In my opinion, it isn't possible. What they have turned out to be is nothing what built the company and the legend.

If you want a Savage, buy an older, well made one, and compare it to what you see on the market. Then, and only then, you will see the difference in quality, materials and workmanship.

Dave in WV · « **Reply #24 on:** July 20, 2007, 01:57:46 PM »

"The stocks are junk, the quality control is horrible, and the bolt action is so lose it swings like a belly dancer."

Zachary, concerning your comments, the QC comment seems to apply to today's Remington products. Many complaints on several different forums. Just an observation. I'll admit I like a Savage over a Remington bolt gun. NOT for looks.

The Gamemaster · « **Reply #25 on:** July 20, 2007, 03:43:04 PM »

The first rifle I hunted with was a Winchester Lever action 30-30.

A priest gave it to my Uncle when he was a kid and he was pretty tight with his money and he once told me that he went from 1964 to 1982 without harvesting a antlered deer.

After hunting with it - I can tell you why. It was a horrible gun to shoot and was not very accurate and I doubt if I ever got anything with it and I wouldn't carry it if my life depended on it.

The next gun I hunted with was a Model 721 Remington 30-06 with a 4X Weaver. It was big, ugly, heavy, hard to load and unload. It didn't pattern much better than a shotgun and my dad owned it since it was new = when he bought it in 1955. when he was a sailor in the Navy and he bought it at the PX and shipped it home. I did get my first buck and doe with that gun - but it was not a very good choice for a young hunter to use. I almost shot the family vehicle in the camp yard one day while unloading it.

My life changed when I went down to my grandmothers house and asked - hat in hand - if I could borrow my grandfathers Model 110 Savage 30-06.
My grandfather bought it new sometime around 1936 and shot many deer with it with open sights before my Uncles went together and bought a 4X Weaver scope and a Williams Flip Mount sight.

No matter what anyone wants to say about that old Savage - I will defend it forever.

I once tore the scope apart in the middle of the woods on the opening day of antler-less deer season - because it fogged up and I had a group of does come walking up the trail and I tried to shoot it without the objective lense and missed. Other than that, I cannot ever remember missing a deer with that rifle. I probably hunted with it for 10 years and I probably harvested 30 deer with it.

I once shot 4 deer running, while sitting in my tree stand over 125 yards up hill on the last day of deer season at 4:45 PM and quitting time was 5:00! The gun only helld 4 shells! Two of the deer laid side by side and one ran down the hill - hit in the lungs and the third was a small doe that probably weighed 40 lbs and it ran 50 yards up the hill and fell over dead.

Now I have a couple of Remington Game Masters and I can use a 10 shot clip in that gun and I still never topped that one!

I also have a Savage Lever Action Model 99 - take down, in.300 Savage that is just as old as the Model 110 and my other grandfather bought it new and called it his high power. He shot many trophy bucks with it - but never does - because he didn't believe in shooting does.

My father mounted a Old Weaver 2 - 7 scope on it and it will shoot just as good as my Model 88 - .308 Winchester. The serial number on the .308 is 363X
One of the first ones made!

I hunt with a Remington or a Browning and I have missed quite a few deer with both. But I never missed with my Savage.

The only reason why anyone would make the comment others has made is because they want to shoot long range target practice. For that - yes a Specially built Remington Model 700 or a Winchester Model 70 would be a better choice.

But for going out in all kinds of weather and hunting deer at 200 yards or less, the Savage cannot be beat!

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #26 on:** July 20, 2007, 04:26:31 PM »

I've only had one Savage, a 110E in .22-250 that Dad gave me. It had a plastic trigger guard, walnut-stained (but not walnut) stock, rough finish to the bolt and exterior metal, and shot like a house afire. I'm talking 4 shots at 100 yards you could cover with a dime.

Daughter #2 didn't mince words and called it "ugly". She was right.

That said, I would gladly consider another. I haven't but not because I dislike them. The new American Classic is a good looking rifle in my eyes.

In fact I am keeping an eye out for an inexpensive Savage action to build on.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 20, 2007, 06:49:25 PM »

I really like my 308 Model 10FP...but...

Quote

There is absolutely no comparison between the Savages of the past and what they are spitting out of the factory now. Materials and Workmanship in some of them are head and shoulders above anything you can find new.

Not in your wildest dreams is this a reality...now...if you say for the same amount of money...yes...I agree...but...not above anything I can find that is being produced today...sorry...I handle about 100 or more rifles on any given month...I like going looking/shopping and handling rifles...from those $30,000 master pieces to my little NEF single shots... all different makes & models...and I will invariably see many of the Savages with as many faults as I find with out any...Their workmanship isn't the absolute greatest...but..rank slightly less than most others...and for reason...They don't cost as much as most others either...and I am not bashing them at all...as I said earlier...they are getting better...I'm just stating what I have found to be true...While the Vintage Savage bolt guns may has some intrinsic value to some...for me they don't...They were rattle traps...and I have had several in hand that were so loose the bolt would bind on it...The model 99...heck...it is in a league of it's own...and shouldn't even come into to this bolt gun discussion for me...If you can buy one..buy it...it's value will only increase over time...

Mac

Brithunter · « **Reply #28 on:** July 21, 2007, 01:37:03 AM »

Hi All,

Quote

The only reason why anyone would make the comment others has made is because they want to shoot long range target practice. For that - yes a Specially built Remington Model 700 or a Winchester Model 70 would be a better choice.

Hmmmm I have a friend who would argue about that. He built a Light bench gun based on a 112 Savage which was originally a 22-250 but he found that the wind at 600 yards was causing stringing so it now carries a 3 groove Lija barrel in .243AI and the other year he won the Missouristate championship in combined gun class at 600 yard bench Rest with it. He also has aperture taret sights that fit it so he can shoot 600 yard high power with it.

I do not own any Savage rifles myself but then again I do not have ANY American rifles. I did however consider a Model 110 that friend had but then I saw that he also had a Parker-Hale 1200V and I brought that instead.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #29 on:** July 21, 2007, 09:15:16 AM »

i looked at a Rem' Model 700 SPS Varmint today at a store in n.e. Ohio. it may be a good deal if the price goes down on it. they want $549 right now on a $604 (roughly) list price. the rifle is too barrel-heavy, with its synthetic stock and a 26" bull barrel. but.....i'd bet it's a "shooter" based upon the Model 700's we've worked with lately. the stock is a very decent unit from what i saw. it's form along the lines of the barrel was uniform and it's got two studs up front for installation of a bi-pod. it seemed rigid enough to properly control a long-range barreled action.

if they'd drop the price i'd consider buying one.

ss'