smith and wesson= junk

[hawgmaster]

just a little steam venting here,
I purchased a performance center fire arm new about 5 months ago and It has been back to smith and wesson 2 times. I have been lied to and now It has been 4 weeks and no word on my gun and I can't get thru to talk to someone. I sent emails with no reply and I am mad as heck.
I know S&W has a good rep with a lot of people but my experience has sucked.
I feel like I had my $1200.00 stolen from me.
what the heck ??
anyone else had bad experience ?

[Redhawk1]

No, I have owned over 30 S&W handguns without a problem. Even when I had to send something in, I was taken care of in a quick manner. But you have a right to be upset if it is taking so long and you are not getting good communication.

[canon6]

I know of a Performance Center 629 carry comp that had to be sent back and it was returned in new shape really quick,I have sent back to S&W and have had no problem    Doug

[TNrifleman]

Your experience is unusual. I have owned many S&W handguns and they have used a lot with complete satisfaction. The only time I needed to send a revolver back, the repair was made quickly and to my satisfaction. I understand your frustration, but I must respectfully disagree, S&W does not equal junk.

[DWTim]

Is it just me, or do the PC guns have all sorts of weird problems?

Not too long ago, a GBO-er had one where the barrel unscrewed itself.

I just bought a brand new M442 not too long ago. Much better than the new models I looked at a few years back!

[Lloyd Smale]

I can say without reservation that all my dealings with smith have been excellent. In my opinion there customer service and repair facilty people blow ruger out of the water. I would have to say your gun is giving them fits and its just taking a little longer. If you want it buried in the pile just send them a nasty email or chew someone out on the phone.  There email takes a whille to be answered I emailed them about 2 weeks ago about a sight and they just returned my email yesterday so be patient. Im sure its a full time job there weeding through the emails they get every day.

[Redhawk1]

Is it just me, or do the PC guns have all sorts of weird problems?

Not too long ago, a GBO-er had one where the barrel unscrewed itself.

I just bought a brand new M442 not too long ago. Much better than the new models I looked at a few years back!

I have a PC model and sold my buddy my other PC 460 Mag and neither have problems.  PC guns do not have all kind of weird problems. Now some people my have a problem, but that does not make all of them bad.

[OLDHandgunner]

I also have never had any problems with my S&W's or with there service. This is very unusual for S&W. Hope you get the problem resolved quickly.

[rockbilly]

I have never had a problem with Smith and Wesson, but I can't say that about Kimber.  I had two of those high dollar pieces of bovine expletive.

[DWTim]

Okay, to clarify, re: what Redhawk said. I don't want you to think I'm making a blanket judgement on S&Ws, only noting that I've heard of some weird problems with PC guns. That could entirely be due to the fact that people who have problems tend to speak up. Sometimes a company makes a lemon, as I noted another thread about the supposed decline in domestic firearms makers.

I have 5 S&Ws, all good ones, and I've never had a problem with their service. I would be shocked if S&W did not eventually resolve the original poster's complaints, especially on a $1,200 piece.

[Redhawk1]

: DWTim , you are right. There are some guns that have problems no matter the manufacture. It is how well the company works to make it right that counts.
 

[jro45]

I don't have any problems with my S&W guns. The way I see it is that when guns are manufactured there is bound to be one or two that will have problems. It just human nature. Then the company has to find the proper
way to fix it but communation is very important.

[35Rem]

Well, when you pay 2 times the cost for a Custom (semi-custom?) gun you would expect it to be right.  I would be pretty vocal about it myself, if it weren't right.

[Redhawk1]

Well, when you pay 2 times the cost for a Custom (semi-custom?) gun you would expect it to be right.  I would be pretty vocal about it myself, if it weren't right.

Where do you buy your custom gun's from? Last time I checked, you will pay well over double the price of any S&W on the market. And guess what, some times even them custom guns have problems. Crap happens.

[35Rem]

Frankly I don't EXPECT to get "crap" anytime I lay down my cash.

I was referring to the Performance Center stuff, since that's what this thread is about.

The PC firearms cost more for something, I would expect better quality control, if I were buying it.

However, expectations are sometimes just that, Expectations.

[hawgmaster]

A little more3 info about my situation.
The only reason I bought the 12" .460 XVR was because it had a scope rail made into the barrell, and with the front site blade made to slip off I thought that S&W intended this gun to be shot with a scope on it.
When I got the gun, I paid $ 1200.00 for it and I put a Burris 3x12 scope on it. went to the range to site it in. first shot was about 12 inches low at 20 yards but was allmost dead on left to right. I began to run the elevation adjustment to bring the POI up to the bulls eye, when I ran out of adjustment I was still 8 inches low so I went home to think about it. I figured I just needed to get the  scope lower on the gun. the first set of rings I had on were new Leupold quick detach rings, so I put on another set of Leupold rings that were lower than what I started with, so low in fact that I had to take off the rear iron site so the scope would not touch.
went back to the range and it was still shooting way low, then the scope failed, the reticle came loose inside. well I figured I had a defective scope all along so I sent it back and got my money back. I then put a Leupold scope on the gun and went to the range, still shooting way low so I figured OK something is going on here. I called S&W and they said to send the gun back to them with a detailed letter about what the problem was. In 2 weeks the gun came back in with paper work saying that the barrel had been changed so I thought OK we got it right this time. Put the scope back on and went to the range, it was shooting to the exact spot as before about 10 inched low with the scope adjusted as far as it would go. So , to make sure I was doing everything I could to make sure I was not doing something wrong I went and bought a 3rd set of rings , I got the Warne rings this time and I bought a new Bushnell Elite 3200 2 to 8 power scope and mounted it. first shot was 10 inches low, good grief (  I new it would not help but I began to adjust the scope to bring the point of impact up and when I ran out of adjustment it was still 6" low at 20 yards and the same at 50 yards, I was about the blow my lid.
I went home and called S&W, and after about an hour of getting the run around I finally talked to the guy who said he was the one who worked on my gun, come to find out they didn;t change the barrel, this Bozo said he put the iron sites back on it and after some adjustment he got it to shoot on the paper so he sent it back to me. I asked the guy If he even read my note and I don't think he even looked at it. He told me to send it back in and they would look at it again. I hung up the phone and the more I thought about it the madder I got. So I called right back and asked to speak to someone at the Performance center, at first the lady said she could not connect me to the PC. I explained to her as nice as I could about the problems and I told here I was going to keep calling back until I could speak to someone who would help me, she connected me to the PC.
I talked with a guy who sounded like he was really concerned with my situation, he told me to send the gun back in with my scope on it and they would check it out, well that was 5 weeks ago. I have emailed the guy with no reply, and I have tried 3 times to call to check on my gun and no one can tell anything except that they did receive the gun.
I went on the S&W performance center web site and I was reading the the discription of why you should buy a Performance model fire arm and I thought what a crock.
I have a lot of friends who have had great success with S&W so I guess my case is a rare one, but it still does not make me feel any better.
I guess this being the week of the 4th. S&W will be closed all week so it will be another week gone by............It really sucks

[Graybeard]

Just buy you some Burris Signature rings and the offset inserts and fix the problem yourself with no hassle whatsoever.

[hawgmaster]

Hey Greybeard,
I thought about that, and if it were a 500.00 gun I would just except that was the way to go , you know what I mean ?

[Graybeard]

No not really. I use the Burris Signature rings on all my guns regardless of cost. I've come to accept that the manufacturers as a group are NOT doing a very good job of scope mounting on guns these days the those with some type of build in mounting system seem to be the worst. It's just not worth the hassle, worry or expense so I just buy Burris Signature rings for all my guns.

[hawgmaster]

O.K. then

[MontanaVet]

It sounds to me the scope mount is off.  My brother had this same problem on a rifle and had to shim the mount.  I know you should not have that problem, but that is what I would suspect.  Since your mount is built on the barrel, that is a problem.

The other thing I would suggest is did you try different ammunition?  Sometimes, firearms are picky until you get the right load.

I sent a revolver in for some custom work and they took 9 months to finish.  I suspected I made someone angry, but how I have no idea.  Inside the case was a handwritten note that said "Do not ship until September"  That was at 7 months and I got my revolver two months later.   MV out!

EDIT-  If it was me, I don't care what they did to my revolver, I would sell it and get another one.  If a knife cuts me three times, I give it away no matter what it costs.  If a firearm will not shoot as it is designed, I trade or sell and buy another one (after I get it repaired).  That is just me.

EDIT 2-  Come to think of it we had trouble too with Leupold rings and mounts on my brother's rifle.  I have the same setup with no problems.

[hawgmaster]

Hey Guys,
Good news  I got my gun back on Friday. I could tell that they did change the whole barrel ( 2 piece barrel ) this time and there was a target included where it was test fired.
They rezeroed my scope and it was shooting only about 1 1/2" low, I took it to the range and after a few adjustments it was shooting good groups. I am so happy to finally have this thing right.
I will post my groups and chrono numbers on a different thread as I work up loads for this gun.
S&W still did not tell me what the problem was with the other barrel but I don't care now that mine is shooting.
Todd

[DWTim]

Great news! Thanks for the follow-up.

[Old Griz]

I purchased a performance center fire arm new about 5 months ago and It has been back to smith and wesson 2 times.

I had a problem with a Colt Anaconda that kept going back to the factory that really ticked me off (to say the least). The firing pin wouldn't hit the primer hard enough to fire most of the time. I'd get it back from Colt, and it still wouldn't fire. Then one day at the range, an older and wiser shooter looked at it and said, "The hammer's too long. Just file it down some." I sent it back to Colt yet again (I didn't want to void any warranty), and son-of-a-gun if that didn't fix the problem. The hammer was hitting the frame and the transfer bar at about the same time. Therefore, not enough umph going to the transfer bar and firing pin. I just wonder why the bozos . . . I mean "professionals" . . . at Colt couldn't figure that out, and an old shooter saw the problem in less than a minute.

So I know the frustration you've gone through. It's bad enough having to keep sending your gun back to be fixed. It's really bad when YOU have to tell THEM what to do.

[Hammerdown]

Hey Guys,
Good news  I got my gun back on Friday. I could tell that they did change the whole barrel ( 2 piece barrel ) this time and there was a target included where it was test fired.
They rezeroed my scope and it was shooting only about 1 1/2" low, I took it to the range and after a few adjustments it was shooting good groups. I am so happy to finally have this thing right.
I will post my groups and chrono numbers on a different thread as I work up loads for this gun.
S&W still did not tell me what the problem was with the other barrel but I don't care now that mine is shooting.
Todd

Hello Todd
To start with, S&W did NOT make the barrel for your Performance weapon in .460 Cal. an Outside Vendor did. So they are the ones selling what you called JUNK to S&W to begin with. This was explained in the Performance recall of the Performance model 460's as they also have a Barrel erosion problem with these Outside Vendor parts, and are replacing them free of charge. I find this Custom Built revolver much like a Orange County Chopper. Most of the parts contained in their Bikes are Out side Vendor supplied, Yet Orange County Chopper's Boasts they are custom made ? Yeah, Right.. From what I see they are Vendor Parts put all together to create a Finished bike as Orange County Chopper makes very Little of the parts they actually use on their High Dollar Bikes, so you are paying for a Hodge Podge of Parts placed together to make these Bikes Unique or custom Built as they call it and when ever that happen's it usually has some backfiring of some sort. So how can it be S&W's fault that your barrel had any issues, when they Never made it ? It appears they wenbt the distance to correct your issues as well in the end so I don't feel it is fair calling their Products JUNK. I Strongly disagree that S&W Builds JUNK as you called it, as I have over 20 of their revolver's and all perform flawlessly for me and always have. Although they are NOT from the Performance center Brands they are just run of the Mill daily production types that made S&W Famous to begin with at a Much Lower working mans Prices that shoot well enough for me. Regards, Hammerdown

[Redhawk1]

Hammerdown, I agree with you on that S&W is not junk. But where I differ is, the Performance center guns, just because S&W is not the ones making some of the parts does not make them a "Hodge Podge" of Parts placed together. Most of the big corporation out source parts, that is common practice.

As for the 460 Barrel erosion problem, S&W along with the barrel maker worked on that problem, that was the hold up on the release of the 460 by about 6 or 7 months. I have over 3000 rounds down my 460 Mag and the forcing cone and barrel are in perfect shape. As far as Orange County Chopper's, they are custom, no matter how you look at it.

[Hammerdown]

Hammerdown, I agree with you on that S&W is not junk. But where I differ is, the Performance center guns, just because S&W is not the ones making some of the parts does not make them a "Hodge Podge" of Parts placed together. Most of the big corporation out source parts, that is common practice.

As for the 460 Barrel erosion problem, S&W along with the barrel maker worked on that problem, that was the hold up on the release of the 460 by about 6 or 7 months. I have over 3000 rounds down my 460 Mag and the forcing cone and barrel are in perfect shape. As far as Orange County Chopper's, they are custom, no matter how you look at it.

Hello
I can't agree with anyone Other than the Manufacturer of the weapon be the Sole Parts supplier for the Price paid on a performance Center gun, S&W should make every Part in house by skilled craftsman, not get them from Outside sources and Put Non Made S&W Factory parts with Their actions, this is a recipe for Disaster if you bank on Outside Vendors placing a High quality control in parts for Your long reputation of durable handguns, with this type of Inferior parts being used it won't take long for the Performance shop to be out of Business. People are Paying High Dollar for a Custom Hand made Performance handgun and expect a Higher standard of Uncompromising  High Quality Bulit into them, rather than the everyday Production line guns at a Much Lower  Price due to mass Produced parts that are all retro Fit. The .460 Performance revolver has had Barrel erosion issues since they came out with a standard Production Version Back in 2005. They claim this revolver will need a barrel replacement after 1000 Round. I read an article back in Mid September last year in Gun's magazine and here is what was said in that article   /QUOTE/   "You can't see many of the special features we had to incorperate just to handle the pressures and recoil of these revolvers. For instance, we used a hardend breech Bushing in the .500 to deal with the flexing forces applied to the top strap. But the .460 with operating pressures of 65,000 Psi, required a fully hardend breech. Its hard to believe but unless we took such measures, even the massive X frame would flex so much on firing that it touched the cylinder. " The cylinder gap on Both revolver's is tiny, and the barrel face is absolutely Smooth" Even a minute fissure in barrel or cylinder face is a pathway for Hot Gas. Given the enthusiasim of the .460 Gas cutting would quickly ruin any gun with imperfections at the gap"./UNQUOTE/ . This came out just after S&W asked that all performance .460 Revolver that had been sold in the past be retuned to correct the Problems. I Can't see how they can correct a Pressure issue in a Handgun when Peak pressures of the Hotest rifle loads are around 50.000 PSI Max. I feel this Problem was Known for awhile, but S&W did not know what to do in correcting it other than what was Mentioned above in the article quotes, and went ahead and released this revolver before Tackeling the Problem and that is what forced the factory Call Back on all the Performance center .460 Revolver AFTER they were shipped and sold.I think they are Hoping no one actually shoots in excess of the 1000 round mark where all the .460 Barrels will need replacment both the Production line model and the Performance center custom models. Sounds to me like they are trying to Put a small Bandage on a rather Large cut. Regards, Hammerdown.

[Redhawk1]

I guess you missed the part where I have over 3000 rounds with my 7.5 inch PS 460 Mag.  I have a few friends with 460 Mags also with a higher count than 1000 and still no problem. Contact S&W and asked them about that 1000 round barrel replacement issue and they will tell you that is not true.
As far as the barrel maker, Lothar-Walther they make Custom German Rifle Barrels, they are not just an ordinary run of the mill barrel maker. They make top quality barrels.

[Hammerdown]

I guess you missed the part where I have over 3000 rounds with my 7.5 inch PS 460 Mag.  I have a few friends with 460 Mags also with a higher count than 1000 and still no problem. Contact S&W and asked them about that 1000 round barrel replacement issue and they will tell you that is not true.
As far as the barrel maker, Lothar-Walther they make Custom German Rifle Barrels, they are not just an ordinary run of the mill barrel maker. They make top quality barrels.

Hello
I was Once Interested in getting this caliber in a handgun but the Barrel issue kept me from spending time and money on something that may be trouble later on. Good that you have a high round count with no issues but this model needs more time to prove it's durability just isn't single case scenario's, and it would be Interesting to know if this High round count was done while using all .460 Fully Loaded rounds as well. I feel If they all had no issues there would not have been a Major call back as everyone knows this causes Interest drop for those looking to Purchase a new one, and it certainly did alter the Purchase appeal  of onefor me. Lothar-Walther makes a good rifle barrel, but they don't make calibers in rifles that even come Relatively close to the Pressure of 65000 PSI of this cartridge. I like the fact you can shoot other rounds in this caliber and feel S&W is hoping that the Others will be used more consistently to avoid this High Pressure issues of the .460 Round. I Guess it just Isn't my cup of Tea since it had issues right out of the gate perhaps S&W should test their Products more fully before releasing them to save face later on, by calling them back for Inspections and replacments of Parts. No Matter what I think of these handguns, I keep thinking back to what was stated in the article that was In guns Magazine when they interviewed a factory Rep and he stated the following. To me I don't think they can produce every barrels forcing cone so perfect to Insure a Life long durable happiness with the customer. Regards, Hammerdown


/Quote/ The cylinder gap on Both revolver's is tiny, and the barrel face is absolutely Smooth" Even a minute fissure in barrel or cylinder face is a pathway for Hot Gas. Given the enthusiasim of the .460 Gas cutting would quickly ruin any gun with imperfections at the gap"./Quote/

[Redhawk1]

As I stated before, the 460 Barrel is no more an issue, it has been resolved, yes there was an issue at first. As far as my high round count, yes they all have been full loads. I did not buy a 460 Mag to shoot wimp loads out of. I have other guns for that. LOL

As far as the sales of the 460 Mag, I know they are still selling very well, now the 500 Mag has dropped off due to more people wanting the 460 Mag. Either way, I have both the 460 and the 500 Mag and love them both.