Author Topic: Winchester 94 in 444 Marlin  (Read 5048 times)

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Offline jae

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Winchester 94 in 444 Marlin
« on: May 28, 2003, 04:27:43 PM »
Is Winchester building the 94 in this caliber. Thanks John

Offline Litefoot

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Winchester 94 in 444 Marlin
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2003, 07:11:08 PM »
I know they stopped making the Win 94 Big Bore a couple of years ago. And I think the TImber Carbine went out of production as well, but not sure about that one. Both can still be found NIB if you look around. The Big Bore can be had for an exceptionally good price.
"Other evils there are that may come...Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields we know..."-Aragorn, King Elessar

Offline Mikey

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Big Bore 444s
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2003, 04:06:59 AM »
jae:  Litefoot is correct.  They are no longer made but they are availalbe, nib.  I believe Ron Shirk and CDNN both advertise them in the Shotgun News.  Hope this helps.  Mikey.

Offline Flashole

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Winchester 94 in 444 Marlin
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2003, 04:30:42 PM »
You can find them at the auction arms web site also, just picked mine up yesterday.  skeeterbob was the seller.  I used a local ffl transfer dealer and it went well.  I think I found this through one of the links on this site. Brand new in box.  I could not find this gun at any store in Houston. Will be at the range this weekend. :lol:
=FLASH=

Offline jae

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Winchester 94 in 444 Marlin
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2003, 05:35:09 PM »
Thanks for the replies. I will try to find one , but up here in Canada they may be a little scarce. Thanks John :excuseme:

Offline Harpy

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Winchester 94 in 444 Marlin
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2003, 06:35:04 PM »
jae,
       Remember to check the twist! Some of the earlier Win 94 BB's have a 1X12 twist. The later models have a 1X38. My 1X12 I can shoot 250grs to 400grs+.

                   Good Hunting
                         Harpy

Offline Harpy

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Winchester 94 in 444 Marlin
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2003, 04:47:23 PM »
Winchester -- Big Bore 94 Black Shadow, 444 Marlin
Time Left till Auction Closes -- 1 Days, 0 Hours, 51 Minutes
Category: Firearms - Rifle -- Item# 4388899

Offline Mikey

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Big Bore 444s
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2003, 04:08:46 AM »
Harpy:  there you are.  I sent you off an e-mail a bit ago and hadn't heard back from you or seen a post from you in a while.  I wuz afraid you ahd left town.  Also, one of the other posters on this forum was inquiring about your bullets and said that he too had sent you off an e-mail but hadnt heard back from ya.

Talking with you has set me on a future course of total confusion.  In addition to the rebarrelled Big Bore I already have, I found a Timber Carbine with beautiful wood and put a down payment on it, two days before I found a Black Shadow and put a down payment on that one too.  How am I gonna explain all these lever actions to my dogs.  The Black Shadow is new but the composite stock looks like crap and doesn't mate well at all to the metal - it looks like a mass produced piece of plastic and adds nothing at all to the rifle.

Both the Carbine and the Black Shadow have the 1:38 twist and the micro groove barrel - dang!  But, I will assume they will shoot jacketed or gas check bullets with accuracy - if not, then it's back to the Montana Rifleman for a better barrel.  I doubt I would take anything farther than a 200 yd shot with those shorter barrels, leaving the longer range shooting for the longer barrelled rifle but I want them to shoot accurately.  

Also, at some point in time both will get full length tubes, probably Ashley Ghost Ring sights and the Black Shadow will be come a rifle with an nice aftermarket wood stock.  Geez, I hope I don't see any more of those things on the shelves, I'm runnin' outta dog food money and the guys aren't happy with me for that.  

BTW, if you could send me an e-mail I would like to speak with you further about your bullets.  Thanks.  Mikey.

Offline Flashole

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Harpy & Mikey
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2003, 12:30:14 AM »
So are you saying that the new ones don't shoot well.  I just got a new 94 in 444 off Auction Arms,  with a 20 inch barrel.  The slow twist rate won't stabilize the heavy bullets???  And whats the issue with the micro goved barrel,  will not shoot cast bullets well???  This is my first go round with a lever action.  Just how bad is this set up.  Hope this does not turn out to be a wild shooting barrel fowling mess.  This gun was a bunch cheaper than the Marlin,  maybe now I understand why  and why it was dropped from production.  Any help getting me on path with this would be a big plus.  Thanks guys. :?:  :?:
=FLASH=

Offline Mikey

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Big Bore 444s
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2003, 04:20:32 AM »
Flashole:  Your Big Bore 444 will shoot any jacketted or gas checked bullet with all the accuracy you need.  There is no trick to the micro-groove barrel except that it doesn't shoot plain based cast bullets worth a dang.  Jacketted and gas-checks are an entirely different story.  Beartooth Bullets has conducted an incredible amount of research on this issue with Marlin rifles in 444, using the same barrel and twist rate found on some of the Winchester Big Bore 444s, and has obtained incredible accuracy with their gas-checked bullets all the way up to 410 grains.  I purchased some of those bullets and they are monsters.  Harpy, who also posts on this forum makes his own jacketted bullets for the 444, all the way up to 410 grains and they are beautiful to see.  The accuracy he has obtained from his Timber Carbine with a 1:12 twist is 'minute of angle' and phenomenal.  

The setup you have, from my perspective is the perfect woods gun for anything on this continent.  Yours will shoot any 240 or 265 factory load very, very well - maybe even better than you can with open sights.  And speaking of sights, an Ashley Ghost Ring setup will serve you well and improve your sighting.  

The micro-groove barrel will not lead any worse than any other barrel if you stick with jacketted or gas-checked bullets, period.  I think the micro-groove rifling is a bit too close together to allow plain based bullets to take the rifling well enough to give you any decent accuracy.  And since you have a new barrel/rifle, you may want to throw a whole bunch of jacketted stuff downrange to help break it in.  Also, a Tornado brush will help you keep that barrel clean.  

Actually, I do not know why Winchester dropped the Big Bore 444 from their inventory but I doubt it was due to any accuracy problems.  Gun Tests Magazine and Guns and Ammo reported on a comparison between the longer barrrelled Marlin rifle in 444 and the Timber Carbine (same twist as yours).  Both magazines tested the guns with factory loads, including some from Garret and Buffalo Bore.  All loads wore a jacket or gas-check and all performed with better than expected accuracy.  The only comment about either of the rifles tested was that the Timber Carbine was about as light a weight of rifle (6 3/4 lbs) that you would want to use with this caliber but beyond that they gave no discredit or had complaint with the accuracy from that 1:38 micro-groove twist.  Anything quicker in twist just helps improve the accuracy, as Harpy's results demonstrate, but unless you are into 'minute of angle' lever actions your new Winnie should serve you very well for a very long time and group under 3" at 100 yds with the factory open sights.  With improved sights your groups could easily shrink to 2", which is excellent for open sights on a lever action.  

Oh, you also mentioned that the slow twist won't stabalize heavy bullets - this is not correct.  The 1:38 twist was first used, I believe, in the Trapdoor Springfields firing the 45-70, which used heavy bullets with great accuracy.  You should not worry about that.  Somebody told you wrong.  The only issue about the slugs you use is whether they are jacketted/gas checked or plain based.  If you had a 6 groove barrel in 1:38 twist you might be able to shoot plain based cast bullets better than with a 12 groove micro-groove barrel but with the advent and availability of new heavy bullets for the 444 in gaschecked configuration, there isn't anything out there now that you can't shoot from that barrel with the kind of accuracy that will make you very happy.

Flash, ya dun guud with yor neu Winnie.  Get to know her and have fun.  From the bench she will be a butt kickin' mule but when you drop the hammer on a running whitetail, some nasty assed old boar or a bear who has gotten too close you won't even notice it.  This is Mikey and I hope this helps.

Offline Flashole

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Winchester 94 in 444 Marlin
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2003, 01:53:25 PM »
Mikey  thanks for the info.  Was feeling pretty low when I read too much into this topic.  All the power feed back I got about this round made me chose it over the 45 70.  I know now that both are real stompers from what I learned here.  The reload manuals I have don't show the real power both of these guns.can produce.  I have not got the brass or dies yet, but I have a bunch of gas checked Cast Performance slugs that I use in a 445 supermag Contender.  The biggest is a 300gr.  Is there a source for reloading info  for this type of bullet.  Thanks again.  Flash
=FLASH=

Offline Harpy

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Winchester 94 in 444 Marlin
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2003, 07:15:47 PM »
Flashhole,  
My Win 94 BB Black Shadow has a 1:12 twist and as Mikey states, you can get very good accuracy from your Win 94 BB. I lapped the bbl, had the action slicked up, a muzzle brake installed (that with a twist of the wrist can be engaged/disengaged), a trigger job and a Houge recoil reducer put in the stock. My gun is 6 3/4 lbs. and w/o the Houge in the stock will kick the C#$@ out of you when shooting at the bench. My Black Shadow will not win a “beauty contest’ but I guarantee you it is all business. It is tight; even after thousands of “HEAVY” rounds thew it. It functions flawlessly, points extremely well is rugged in that I don’t baby it in the woods, in the snow, rain, etc. I t small very compact light to carry and doesn’t get snagged on the tree branches, vines etc when hunting. It has a quick leupold detachable scope/rings and I have two scopes for it, a Leupold 1X4 and Leopold3X9X50mm. The iron sights are modified a little and work excellent. It is my preferred hunting tool.
 I have a few other projects that I am finishing up. When there complete, I will build a 444 Win 94 BB with a 26” bbl like Mikey’s. I will wear some tiger maple on it and be engraved. I am interested in doing some target shooting and comparing the ballistics of some of the bigger Spitzer bullets I make in a 20’bbl and 26”bbl. at long range, at the range, not just on paper.
   
            Good Hunting
            Harpy

Offline Mikey

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Flash and Harpy
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2003, 04:58:06 AM »
Flash:  There are a couple of reloading manuals that will provide data for reloading 300 grain bullets.  If the manual identifies a 300 grain jacketted bullet you can use the same powder charge for the same weight gas check bullet.  I have this on authority from 3 different powder manufacturers.

Harpy - you ole dog you.  I didn't know you had a Black Shadow, I thought you were punishing yourself only with the Timber Carbine.  I just put a down payment one a Black Shadow but was disappointed with the stock to action fit but, and as you mentioned, it ain't pretty but it is all business.  I just might lose that plastic stock in favor of some nice wood and you mentioned a tiger maple that sounds beautiful.  We need to talk and I would very much appreciate some information on who performed your trigger/action work and where you would look for the new stock.  

Also, with the fabulous success you have had with your 1:12 twist (6 groove I assume) I may look to have my Black Shadow re-barrelled with a 1:12 twist barrel and would want to talk with you about that.

ps:  you are so right about the recoil.  I know the ported barrel on the Timber Carbines help reduce recoil but that Black Shadow feels awful light in weight.  Looks like its time for a PAST Recoil Sheild underneath my 1" thick shooting jacket.  Since you are a member, would you mind sending me an e-mail as I would very much like to talk with you about all of this.  Thanks.  Mikey.

Offline Flashole

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Winchester 94 in 444 Marlin
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2003, 02:25:35 PM »
Mikey & Harpy
  Took the winne out today.  What a blast!!!  Light gun, heavy bullet, and a snapping recoil.  After about 10 rounds the pain took some fun out of the day.  Found out that a sand bag makes a pretty good pad.  I saw a fellow one day duing that with a 45 70 g.g.  Kept going, ran out two boxes of factory ammo.  Two 5 shot groups went about 1.5"  at 50 yds.  Others had too many flyers.  Have not shot open sights on a rifle in at least 10 years.  Bought some rings and bases, not sure if I will mount a scope. This sure is not a gun that will see a great deal of time on the bench.  Will order the stuff from Midway to reload after I post this.  Thanks again for all the feed back.
Flash
=FLASH=

Offline Mikey

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Winnie 444s
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2003, 04:33:01 AM »
Flash:  of all the rifles and calibers I own, the 444 is one of the worst from the bench.  I regularly use a military shooting jacket with a thick should pad to it and that will keep me mostly painless for the entire session.  I will be a bit sore when I get home but I won't have the same problem the fellow with the Guide Gun in 45-70 had - groups that open up to pie plate size at 50 yds because of the flinch.  I even went and bought a PAST Recoil Sheild but haven't had the chance to use it yet.

I think that if you can get it to print where you want it to from the bench, your next step should be standing or kneeling shots - you will not feel the recoil as much as you will from the bench.  Also, to reduce the recoil from the bench, make certain you have a good 'field grip' on your forestock and that your hand is between the forestock and sandbag.  It helps.  

Hope all of this helps and that you enjoy that 444.  Now, go bag your own self a nice bearskin rug.  This be Mikey.

Offline Sgt. Drydock

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Winchester 94 in 444 Marlin
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2003, 03:01:27 AM »
Just  FYI, the twist in the Trapdoor Springfield is 1-22"
Limber up!

Offline Mikey

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Trapdoor Twist
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2003, 03:32:37 AM »
Sgt. Drydock - thanks.  Mikey.

Offline kevin.303

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Winchester 94 in 444 Marlin
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2003, 07:41:40 AM »
here in canuckistan check with SIR mailorder here in winnipeg. they where listed in there catalogue last year and they also carry a good selection of used rifles
" oh we didn't sink the bismarck, and we didn't fight at all, we spent our time in Norfolk and we really had a ball. chasing after women while our ship was overhauled, living it up on grapefruit juice and sick bay alcohol"