The American Bolt Rifle...Like an Edsel vs. a Honda.

[beemanbeme]

Waaaaahl, I'm gonna look you right in the eye and give you an unqualified maybe.  The idea being that Rem/Win/Rug/Sav nor even the elves making one offs under the hollow logs are gonna pay a qualified gun smith  whatever a qualified gun smith makes an hour to put screws in a receiver. Or sand a stock with oooo sand paper. When you can hire a guy off the street and 30 minutes later he is an accomplished stock sander working under the supervision of a gun smith. The good old days when the gun smith took a receiver and then hand fitted all the parts and barrel and stock to it, ala pre 64 model 70, are right out there with buggy whips and high button shoes. One of the reasons is modern machinery is so much more precise that few of the parts have to be fitted like with the model 70. You can still get a rifle like that but you're gonna pay. Pay big. Of the last several Rems I've bought, NIB, I've had no complaints.  I could see the reasoning behind the J lock and it certainly didn't affront me so aestitically that I would get sick to my stomach every time I looked at it like it apparently did some. Since I didn't have any little kids in the house so I just unlocked it, put one of the j thingies on my key ring and forgot about it. 
I've got some 700's that are @ 40 years old or older and I like the new ones just as well.  I like the finish on the CDL's and the Classics a hell of a lot better than the old "bowling ball" finish on the BDL's.

As far as unqualified gun dealers and snotty clerks are concerned, that ain't the gun makers fault.  Think of them as car dealers.  They want to sell you what's on the lot.  And once they've got your cash, they could care little about you. When you find one that ain't like that, stick with him.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm Modern CNC machinery and tooling CAN ................................................ I say CAN be possibly more accurate but is possibly more repeatable proving :-

Firstly the basic machine is capapble of such repeatabilty .... NOT all CNC's are!

Then the operating or control system is capable of the said accuracy and they vary.

The tooling must be "qualified" which cost a buch more. At one time Carbide inserts were ground and lapped so indexing them would maintain, in an undamaged holder, a size within 0.001" now unless you specify !Qualified tooling which includes holders then they only claim that indexing the tip in the holder will be with in 0.004" (0.1mm)

Then you need a good programmer a skilled setter  and operators which know what their doing and can maintain the sizes allowing for heat build up in tools and machine and for wear.  this is not picked up in 30 minutes but takes time and experience. True some systems do check automatically and compensate for wear but they are high end on not basic CNC machines.

    The old apprentice system produced skilled workers who could and did produce accurate quality components and interchangabilty of parts is not new but a concept introduced by Sir Joseph Whitworth who prooved that it was possible to measure to 0.0001" repeatedly and also thought up the Difference Guage for production work which we now comonly call Go-No go guages. Modern workshops rely too much on these Digital Vernier Calipers and not the more accurate Micrometers. I am not impressed with these Digital calipers do not last as the old properly hardened Veriner calipers did. The new digital ones are throw away items yet the customers think that becasue the articles are produced using "Digital" measuring equipment then it's better. How wrong this perception often is!

[safetysheriff]

I think...you had changed your mind on the rifle before you ever opened the box at your gun store...Wither you didn't have a need for it...or really didn't want it...or what ever...it didn't matter...You weren't going to accept it no matter what the condition of it was...and your just posting about it here so you can justify your other purchase......In all likely hood...your  store most likely has some known policy about refunds on special orders...hence...the need for the  "there was something wrong with it approach " ......to get around it...Had you really wanted that particular make & model of  7-08 rifle...you would have gone someplace else and got one...not rush out and buy a  O/U shotgun...instead...


Mac

i smelled a rat when i first read the posting last week.....since i can't fathom turning down a Ruger Hawkeye and then buying an O/U shotgun as a substitute.    it's like losing a 23-year-old Irish blonde just before you get her to the altar and then settling for a 12-year-old ......."whatever".......(i don't want to be thrown off the site, fellas)    the 23-year-old will make your eyes pop out; the 12-year-old will not go the distance in any decent sport known to a man who LOVES (Irish) Women!

i think Mac' was right to tear into the poster; and enjoyed reading what he had to say.    i think somebody wants to 'salve' his conscience on this site; and i'm glad that Mac' , jvs, and i aren't having any!    anybody else smell a dead fish behind this one?

ss'   

ps:  i'm married to an Irish blonde !!!!!     don't bother trying to argue with me about this one!

[nomosendero]

  You know what is really funny in all of this?  No where, not once, have I ever referred to an American rifle as a "POS".  This posting - originally more a commentary on customer service in a small gun store and the shipping practices o a distributor -  has taken on a life of it's own.     


Coyotehunter,  my Ruger M77MkII 25-06, Win. M70 30-06, 7mm WSM, and each of my Marlin 22's will ALL shoot a one-hole group if I am having a good day.  They are all American made.  My Lyman GPR 50 cal and 54 cal muzzleloaders will shoot groups that the holes touch also - they are of Italian manufacture.  My Browning shotguns - all three made in Japan - are on par or exceed the performance of my ancient Remington 870, and I think that is because some misbegotton soul permanently modified the 870's barrel with a Polychoke long before I took the weapon into my embrace. 

And there, my friends, is my conundrum.  I have noticed a decline - and nothing will sway my observations of such - in the quality of American-made firearms in the past couple of years.  Specifically, since the Winchester plant in New England.  Shoddy finish, slipshod assembly, excuses at the gun counter, and the expectation that once you purchase the firearm to ship it back to the original manufacturer at your own cost for repair before you use it.  A sane approach, yes?

Now, would someone please attempt to stay on track, and tell me if they have begun to notice the same problems of declining quality? 

So, in this post you say the following:  "no where, not once, have I referred to an American rifle as a "POS". "

I thought I had better read that first post again & especially the last part & here is a quote from that:  "I am not about to buy a POS just because
it was made in the U.S."  Your words, not mine & then you say the following so we know that includes rifles/firearms: "When it comes to firearms, am I alone in this?"

So, I guess we have different views as to what a "sane approach" to this would be & how it "took a life of its own". 

[Mac11700]

Nomo...I saw that line too...and thought it odd he would actual say this...

Now, would someone please attempt to stay on track, and tell me if they have begun to notice the same problems of declining quality?

So basically your still trying to get people to side with you...and  somehow make you feel justified to what you did?

Actually...to answer your question...NO...I actually feel the quality has gone up dramatically on the higher grade models and the American manufactures are beginning to pass on this cost to us for them...The way they are keeping prices down on the economy models is to reduce the fit & finish of the guns by ..using less expensive woods..going with bead blasted finishes..and using plastic parts..These are the economy grades from Savage..Weatherby..Remington..not the better grades offered...Is the quality of these worse...than of the higher priced grades...functionally..sometimes..but not always...but...this is to be expected...as with anything...Is there an occasional slip up on the higher priced guns....sure...it happens...but most folks don't run off crying over it...Logically you have a choice...you can either make the best of the situation..by trying to get a discount for the small blemish..or exchange it for a like model...If you are expecting a high end grade of wood...immaculate bluing..no run overs on the checkering...perfectly bedded...action trued...then buy a custom gun and be done with it...Then...IMHO...you would have a valid reason for acting the way you have...but not on a run of the mill rifle mass produced rifle...

Mac

[SuperstitionCoues]

Mac,

You do like to try and pick a fight, don't you?  Sorry, I'm not going to take the bait. 

Maybe the gory details would help your comprehension:

Cosmetic:  August 2000.  Purchased a NIB BPS 12 ga from a store in town.  Coincedentally, the same sales person that is a de facto part of the discussion is working there.  A major blemish on the reciever had been covered up with black goo.  I didn't find it until I wiped it away after purchase with Hoppe's.  I still have the shotgun, blemish and all. 

Mechanical:
2002 - A new M-70 had to send it back to the factory for adjustment as the ejector was shaving brass from the cases. $$$ out of my pocket to ship for repair.
2004 - Same deal with a new M-70 Featherweight.  These two were not purchased from Bear Mountain.  More money out of my pocket to ship to the factory for repair. 

Each of these were purchased at separate, different retailers.  Absolutely beautiful firearms, no cosmetic defects at all, even after thoroughly cleaning it when I get home.

Cosmetic:   6/06  Purchased a used 20 ga. Rem. 1100 from the same store and same individual as the BPS.  This time, wiped down the firearm with a rag for a close inspection re: the BPS.  Figured that would eliminate any problems.  Can't find anything, until I get it home and strip the gun.  Gunscrubber reveals more cosmetic defects concealed by the black goo.  What is this stuff???  Eventually sold the gun for other reasons.

Mechanical and Cosmetic:  12/06.  I receive a Marlin 39A as a gift, purchased from Bear Mountain.  Sales person in question isn't there (yet).  The person who gives it to me is an incredibly loving and wonderful person (my wife), but not experienced in firearms.  The muzzle looks like it has been peened with a punch, with the crown edge of the bore dented.  Also numerous scrapes and gouges on the receiver, down past the bluing to where white metal is showing.  Not wanting to bother Bear Mountain, I contact Marlin directly and send it back for repair.  Received a new barrel and a re-bluing on the rifle.  It shoots like a dream, but I am out more $$ for shipping charges.  Again, Bear Mountain knows nothing of this.

Cosmetic:  2/07.  For lengthy reasons I won't go into - predation problems in an area I am working in -  I need a 44 Mag.  Order one through Bear Mountain.  The sales person in question is now working for this store (what is he doing, following me around?  Can't get rid of the guy!).  A new Ruger stainless Super Blackhawk is ordered. When it comes in, it is badly scratched on the barrel and on the frame around the cylinder.  At this point, a trend is present.  I point out the problems, refuse this firearm and ask nicely have them get a different one from the distributor.  They are begrudging about doing this.  The sales persons mysterious "goo" had showed up again, and he tried to conceal the scratches. 

Mechanical: 4/07.  After my field work is completed, per the instruction booklet provided by Ruger, I completely strip the 44 Mag and clean it.  The simple act un-screwing the trigger guard screw that holds in the loading gate rips the cast threaded block out of the frame.  Upon comparison with a new screw from Ruger, it is apparent that they installed the wrong screw in the first place, causing the damage to the revolver.  Take it to Bear Mountain, and I ask them to ship it to Ruger for me, as it is a revolver and not a long gun and this process is more cumbersome (and expensive)than shipping the Marlin was.  They happily said sure, but told me that since the distributor granted a "Lifetime Guarantee" on there firearms, I should send it to them.  O.K., whatever you say...  a new Magnum was in my hands in May.  Works great, shoots fine.

Cosmetic:  June 07.  For reasons that aren't pertinent I decide on a Ruger Hawkeye 7mm-08 for a lesser-recoil rifle.  Order it through Bear Mountain on-line because I really like the price, putting down a deposit with a credit card.  Now well-experienced, I figured I could work around any other "problems".  I anxiously await the delivery of the weapon.  It comes in... guess who is behind the counter, guess who received in the rifle, and guess who now won't open the box to show me the firearm? After going through the background check (haven't paid the remainder yet), I have to practically demand to see the weapon before I leave the store.  At this point, I am mistrustful.  Once open, I ask for a rag to wipe the weapon down with.  Our sales person in question says that they don't have anything like that behind the counter.    (Come on , this a gun store!)  I ask again, telling him that I am not leaving with the gun or paying for the rest of it until I do so.  He unhappily goes and gets a rag and a can of WinOil. 

The wipe down not only reveals a blemish to the matte blue finish (I could have lived with that), but also a scratch and ding in the barrel that is down to bare metal that is reminiscent of the Marlin 39A.  He sees them and agrees, but tells me that I should accept this and be happy with a scratched and dented NIB firearm.   With the history that this individual has in hiding defects in mind, I nicely ask him to take the firearm back, and get another one from the distributor.  He agrees, but isn't happy.

Next Day... I call in the afternoon to find out how the "swap" went.  Salesperson has decided not to exchange the firearm, telling me that there is nothing wrong with the rifle (when he agreed that there was the previous afternoon), that I had better take this one or find someone else to do business with.    Apparently said sales person and the store owner are upset about the whole revolver problem.  News to me, I thought this had been resolved.  I am told that I should not have cleaned the 44 Mag (), let alone disassembled it, that I am being picky (maybe, but at this point, can you blame me?), and that I am generally a horrible person.  Never once do I raise my voice to this individual, who is now ranting over the phone.  When he calms down enough from going off on me, I ask him if he realizes he is ruining a 20 year business relationship with the store (I have been purchasing ammo, guns and cleaing supplys from Bear Mountain since at least 1987).  He calms down a little and offers that I can then come in to the store and purchase anything off the rack, but he won't order anything else.  After literally having my backside chewed out for more than 20 minutes by this guy - who I am beginning to question his mental stability - I will no longer set foot in the store.  Ever.  I tell him no, please give me my money back.  He said I would have to wait a week to ten days for a check to be cut (hey, didn't I use a credit card on the purchase???).  I say fine, I am a patient person and will do so.  End of conversation.

Next day... I call him back, and ask same sales person to refund it on my card.  A very contrite individual says sure, no problem, and is there anything else he can do.  (Don't get me started on that one.)  Two days later I see the refund on my online statement.

72 hours later, my wife and I go to the new Bass Pro Shop that opened up.  I am looking for another 7mm-08.  None are in stock, and it will be a while before they get any in.  Meanwhile, I spy a Browning Citori 525 Field in a 12 ga. in the rack.  The price is cheaper than anything I have ever seen.  It was love at first site (don't tell my wife, please!).  I begin to consider the possibilities...hmmm, how well would that work with my 7/8 oz reduced recoil loads on quail?  I went back the next day and bought it.  I am still in the market for a 7mm-08, and am working with a guy at another store to bring one or two in for consideration.  Ruger isn't a problem in getting one, but Browning won't have any available until late August.

Now, after this lengthy post, do you see why I tried to condense things?  Maybe I should not have referred to the questioned rifle as a POS in my first post.  Maybe I should have.  That does not mean I consider all American rifles to be a POS; I don't.  Now having the "full" story, you can understand my position of dealing with an unscrupulous sales person that I have been trying to avoid for a quite a few years.  All of this, considering the duration of the trend, led me to the question of whether or not anyone else is seeing a decline in quality of Amercian-made firerms (a la the American auto industry) and the retail sector that goes with it.  I think I have a point.

There is no "dead fish".  There was no "alterior motive".  There was no "changing my mind" before I got to the store.  I do resent the implications of what has been said here.  Those individuals can go ...well, this is a family forum, isn't it? 

[Graybeard]

I'll say one thing for ya, you have got to be the most unlucky gun buyer I've ever run across. I'd conservatively guess I'm now around the 500 mark on guns I've bought probably well more new than used but some of both for sure. In all of the new ones I've ever bought in the last 40+ years and those bought for me before I was old enough to go buy them myself I've not had that many problems all combined. And I thought that if it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all but you are even more unlucky than me. 

[SuperstitionCoues]

I'll say one thing for ya, you have got to be the most unlucky gun buyer I've ever run across. I'd conservatively guess I'm now around the 500 mark on guns I've bought probably well more new than used but some of both for sure. In all of the new ones I've ever bought in the last 40+ years and those bought for me before I was old enough to go buy them myself I've not had that many problems all combined. And I thought that if it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all but you are even more unlucky than me. 

If there is one thing I do well, it is to persevere.  GB, I  take your comments with the utmost respect.

[Graybeard]

That brings to mind a quote from a movie. For the life of me I can't recall the name of the movie it might have been the old chief who was with Josie Wells but I just can't recall. He said he met with the President and was told to "endevor to persevere" and he was wondering what the heck that meant.

That has nothing to do with the thread but your comment just brought it to mind. 

[Zachary]

I'll say one thing for ya, you have got to be the most unlucky gun buyer I've ever run across. I'd conservatively guess I'm now around the 500 mark on guns I've bought probably well more new than used but some of both for sure. In all of the new ones I've ever bought in the last 40+ years and those bought for me before I was old enough to go buy them myself I've not had that many problems all combined. And I thought that if it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all but you are even more unlucky than me. 

I have to say that I agree with you for my reason being that out of all of the rifles that I own (or have owned) all have been shooters - Remingtons, Brownings, Tikkas, Sakos, Winchesters, Kimbers.  I must say, however,that out of all of my rifles, I have only experienced TWO problems.  The first was on a NIB Remington BDL SS DM in 7mm-08.  It had a trigger so bad and so loose that it actually swayed side to side.  The gunsmith told me that Remington would surely replace it, but they wouldn't pay for shipping to and from.  As such, it would be better for me to just get another trigger (I also needed the gun ready for a hunt in Texas the following week).  So he installed a Jewel trigger and the gun has been great ever since.

The other problem I had was, believe it or not, with a Kimber Montana in .300WSM.  It has a Winchster Pre-64 type action, which means it has that long metal piece running along the side of the bolt (I forget the part name).  In any event, that piece of metal was bent and, as a result, I could not pull back the bolt all the way.  I sent the entire bolt back to Kimber.  Well, guess what, Kimber acknowledged that it was a defect and they replaced it and gave it back to me WITHIN 10 DAYS! (give or take).  Now, THAT'S CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!!!!  Yes, Kimber, which is known for its quality control, SHOULD have caught it before it left the factory, but at least their customer service did a tremendous job.

As such, I have only had 2 problems with rifles, but still, all of them have been shooters, and two problems out of many rifles is not that bad.

When I once went to the rifle range with my then brand new Browning A- Bolt Stainless Stalker in .270 Winchester back in 1989 or so, using Federal Premium 130 Sierra boat-tails I put 3 shots into one tight ragged hole.  The guy next to me saw my group and thought that I completely missed the second and third shot all together.  After we went downrange and picked up our targets, his mouth dropped to the floor and offered me $2,000 for that gun and scope (a then Nikon Pre-Monarch 3.5x-10x-50mm).  I told him nope, and I kept the gun.  Well, while not all of my guns can group that well, I would honestly say that ALL of them have shot sub-inch groups with at least one factory load.  That's why sometimes I'm surprised to hear that some people have guns that group 5" or can't even hit the side of a barn.  On many occassions, I have asked myself.....am I just lucky to have all shooter rifles?  Or do all people just have crappy luck in getting crappy rifles?

Zachary

[nomosendero]

That brings to mind a quote from a movie. For the life of me I can't recall the name of the movie it might have been the old chief who was with Josie Wells but I just can't recall. He said he met with the President and was told to "endevor to persevere" and he was wondering what the heck that meant.

That has nothing to do with the thread but your comment just brought it to mind. 

Yes, it was the old chief from The Outlaw Josy Wales. He said after they thought about it for a long time, "endeavor to persevere" then they declared war on the US Gov. It is one of the great movies, sorry about being off topic.

[Mac11700]

Mac,

You do like to try and pick a fight, don't you?  Sorry, I'm not going to take the bait.

No...not really...and there is no baiting at all...just looking at this from a common sense approach...

First off...If you have had this much bad luck from 1 dealer...then why in the hell have you kept going back to them? If you know they are purposely hiding damaged firearms by this "Black Goo"..this would indicate pure dishonesty..but yet...you continue to do business with them...?

I have dealt with 50-75 gun dealers and a few distributors...and have never...and I mean never..had one intentionally try to deceive me on any of my purchases...If I had any issues with any rifle or shotgun it was handled quickly and courteously by them.If I had a issue with any damage or malfunction of any gun..( I can only recall a few instances of this happening..and my last one was last month on a used Savage 308 FP) The problem was corrected at no-expense to me what ever...Even when the gun had to be shipped back...I either called the company and got a call tag..(which anyone can do BTW) or was reimbursed for the shipping from my dealer...The only time I was out for shipping was on a gun that was purchased below wholesale and bought " As-Is" ...knowing full well what I was purchasing...Your first 2 incidents with the Winchester shouldn't of cost you a dime to have repaired since they were new..You say you didn't catch the "Black Goo" covered damage on the Remington till after you stripped it down when you got home..I have never bought any rifle or shotgun that I haven't fully inspected by disassembling it at the store prior to my purchasing it or dis-assemble it for me...If a dealer won't allow it..or gives any BS over a full inspection...I then go over it with a fine tooth comb looking for deception if I really want that particular rifle ...or ...I don't buy it...Now...granted...most won't pull a barrel from a stock of a rifle...especially if it a expensive one...but I can handle it..and wipe it down...Most of my dealers will wipe it down before I handle it..or after any ways...but...if they won't...and does It happen to me once in a while......when I find a dealer that is "shady"...I report them to the company and DON"T GO BACK TO THEM....no matter how good their prices are...You know the old saying...Burn me once...shame on you...burn me twice...shame on me...

Now...if this Bear Mountain is really as bad as you are making out...There are steps you can take...Notify the manufacturer of these problems first off...(of the selling company..not about the firearm...You are complaining about 1 of their stocking dealers..) You need to find out if they are buying close outs or seconds from their distributor for resale...most distributors state to the dealers they cannot sell as NIB guns...The manufacturer can see if this is happening...Secondly...if the manufacturer gets enough complaints about a distributor or dealer..they can loose their status with them...It has happened before...

The rest of your problem guns...were not on any of the higher grades available from what I can see...and most if not all was caused by 1 gun shop...that you kept going back too..

Instead of calling all American made guns POS which you did...then said you didn't...maybe just maybe..your problems aren't really caused a lack of quality by the gun manufactures...but by a disreputable gun dealer...and of your own ignorance... of what your rights are about returning firearms...or after seeing this...are you still not convinced..(.BTW...the word ignorance is not meant in a derogatory way here..but meant as a lack of understanding which hopefully now is no longer the case...) This is what I see in your long explanation...and now you won't  buy from them unless you fully inspect the firearm Good...but it seems to have been a long expensive learning process for you......So....back to reality...do you still feel this is the gun manufactures at fault in all of this...and that the American gun industry is still producing crappy guns? Don't you think you needlessly blamed them...when the fault wasn't theirs in all instances...? I do...and I am sure most other really feel the same way...I am being as nice about this as I can...I still think your trying to put the blame everywhere it should be placed...Sorry if this hurts your feelings...but most people won't allow this happen more than 1 time...and most of your anger and problems seems to be steaming from your experiences with whom you bought the rifle from...not the actual manufactures fault...A couple mis-aligned ejectors and a bad screw on a pistol doesn't spell the down fall of the American gun industry quality...

Mac

[SuperstitionCoues]

Mac,

I finally figured it out... you are off your medication, aren't you?  Forget to take your lithium the past few weeks?  Go play Monday Morning Quarterback elsewhere and annoy someone else.  I have wasted enough of my time on you.

[Mac11700]

Mac,

I finally figured it out... you are off your medication, aren't you?  Forget to take your lithium the past few weeks?  Go play Monday Morning Quarterback elsewhere and annoy someone else.  I have wasted enough of my time on you.

I offered constructive criticism to your post that others here agreed with...and.....by doing so..tried to show you some possible solutions to solve future problems you may encounter along the way...BUT NOOOOOOOOOO.. you have to go and get rude and sarcastic......That's too bad....but..it is a typical response from someone who won't admit they might have over reacted..and wants to blame everyone but themselves for their so-called problems... Your the one who backed yourself into a corner here...I guess it's just easier this way for you...especially when you don't get your way... I got a suggestion for you....Grow up and get some common sense...and while your at it...pull your head out of your backside...There are crooked gun dealers out there...and if you keep going back to the same one...Your the one at fault...not the American Gun Manufactures...

Mac