Author Topic: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray  (Read 1626 times)

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Offline jh45gun

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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:23 pm    Post subject: Well here we go again now Field and Stream enter fray   

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http://fieldandstream.blogs.com/gunnut/2007/06/the_great_cross.html

The Great Crossbow Debate
Field & Stream is running a beginner’s guide to crossbows in its August issue, and the editors want to hear your opinion on where the weapons belong in the hunting landscape. Should they be considered just another bow? Or should they be banned from archery seasons? Read David E. Petzal and Anthony Licata's positions (below), then tell us what you think.

Crossbows, Compounds ... Who Cares?
By Deputy Editor David E. Petzal

This blog is supposed to be about guns, but a good argument is a good argument, so why not?

The crossbow was invented in China, certainly by 200 B.C., and possibly as early as 600 B.C. Like gunpowder, its use eventually spread to Europe, where people used it to shoot each other. The first person who really didn’t like crossbows was Pope Innocent II. In 1139 he and the Lateran Council outlawed the use of the crossbow (except on non-Christians) declaring that skill with it was a “deadly art, hateful to God.” In 1146 it was outlawed throughout Europe, but then, as now, people paid no attention to weapons bans.

Crossbows were for short range only, and their rate of fire, compared to the longbow, was very slow. But their advantage was that the average ignorant dung-encrusted peasant required little training in order to use one, while it took a lifetime of practice to produce a competent longbowman. Firearms made the crossbow obsolete as a military weapon, but it remained popular for hunting.

People still hate crossbows because, compared to a conventional bow, they supposedly require little skill; and they remove the single greatest handicap of the conventional bow by letting you keep an arrow “cocked and locked” indefinitely. Users of stickbows and compounds brood on this and become enraged. “Unsporting,” they bellow, and demand that crossbows be outlawed for hunting.

This is pretty thin logic. If you compare a crossbow to a compound, there are two differences. One is the stock. The other is, you can put a scope sight on a crossbow. But how much advantage is a scope over fiber optic sights? A crossbow is still a 40-yard tool, just like a compound. Is the stock that big a deal? I tend to doubt it. A lot of animals are taken each year by hunters who have to draw their bows just before they shoot, so really, is it that hard?

Unless you want to limit people to stickbows and flintlocks, drop the hypocrisy. A crossbow is just a bow, albeit one with a handle, and it belongs in archery seasons as sure as any modern compound does.

Crossbows Are Great, But They’re Not Bows
By Deputy Editor Anthony Licata

I think it’s ridiculous that in 22 states crossbows are either completely illegal for hunting or an option for handicapped hunters only. There is no logical reason for this third-rate status. But there is a time and place for everything, and while crossbows are a fine choice for any general hunting season, they do not belong in archery-only seasons.

First, some simple facts. Crossbows and modern compound bows are so similar in ballistic performance that they are both 40-yard weapons. A Crossbow is easier to fire accurately because of its sights, stock, and ability to be braced during the shot. But to be fair, with advances in design, components, and mechanical releases, modern compounds are getting easier to master as well.

There is one essential difference between the two. Because you can cock and load a crossbow, you eliminate what any bowhunter will tell you is the sport’s biggest challenge: drawing an arrow undetected on an animal standing within 40 yards.

Some say, so what? Isn’t it better to do anything that gets more hunters in the field? They claim that by banning crossbows from bow seasons, we’re dividing our hunting fraternity and playing right into the hands of antihunters.

Forgive me for not following the party line, but the idea that setting separate seasons for different types of weapons somehow makes us vulnerable to antihunters is foolish and paranoid. In fact, I think that primitive weapons’ seasons actually help hunting.

To me, the whole point of primitive seasons is to acknowledge and reward the idea that hunting should be hard. In our daily lives we welcome every technological advancement that helps us do things easier and faster. But don’t we hunt to get away from all that? Hunting is about using ancient, primal skills in a way that respects nature and the animals we pursue. Once we accept technology over competence and instant gratification before sacrifice, we forfeit what makes hunting so much more than a pastime or hobby. The biggest threat to hunting isn’t division within our own ranks--it’s the ethic that considers more hunters killing more deer as the ultimate end, no matter the means.

Certainly the advances in modern compounds and in-line muzzleloaders have eroded some of the meaning of primitive seasons. But let’s try to preserve what is left of their spirit. If you’re a junior hunter or an injury prevents you from pulling back a compound, then I think a crossbow is fine during bow season. Otherwise, work on your skills, and let’s keep our archery seasons for bows that you actually have to draw before you shoot.

June 08, 2007 |
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Some one said that soon every outdoor mag would be debating this I guess they were right.
 
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Laughing Crow

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2007, 10:29:41 AM »
Oh, my!  Oh, my!  I am not sure I have the energy for this.  I suggest that someone cut the posts from the first Outdoor Life blog and paste it on this one and then we will be done. 

How tacky it is of Field and Stream to attempt to steal the scene by stealing OL's hot new angle.  Well I guess that is the publishing industry for you.  And here I sit wondering why I wasn't smart enough to have a crossbow debate connected with the ACF magazine - Oh I forgot!  THE HORIZONTAL BOWHUNTER MAGAZINE IS THE PRO SIDE OF THE CROSSBOW DEBATE!

Bottom line is that Field and Stream has just jumped in the water and the pool is getting full, but from all the noise, everyone knows where the crossbow-party is.  Let's hope that we can gain some ground with all this publicity we are getting (for free) from the big boys.

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2007, 10:40:02 AM »
If you want an intelligent conversation on this subject that includes ideas and opinions other than yours please move the thread.  As I understand the rules only pro-jh45gun ideas are allowed in the "Crossbow Hunting" section.  As it sits here the only possible response anyone can have is to agree with you, and that certainly doesn't make for an interesting thread.

Offline jh45gun

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2007, 03:40:20 PM »
Don't even start Duckkillr  or your post will be gone and I will be talking to GB about it to see you gone.  I will give you the benifit of the doubt this time.  You were warned before this would not be tolerated here. This is a PRO crossbow board WE yes we the members here do not need to discuss anti crossbow discussions here.  Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline jh45gun

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2007, 03:52:41 PM »
Laughing Crow, Field and Stream and Outdoor Life are Sister Magazines they are owned by the same outfit so I can see since the Outdoor Life blogs generated lots of web mileage I am sure they figured keep it going with the Field and Stream magazine.  Still there I suppose may be a slightly different target reader there as some may get one mag and not the other or same with their web pages.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline dakotashooter2

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2007, 05:06:34 PM »
First let me state that as of a week ago my doctor said I can never bowhunt with a recurve or compound bow again. I guess that puts me in the FORCED to use one class, something I am not excited about at all.
after over 25 years of bowhunting even forced to do so I dispise the thought of having to use one. Don't get me wrong I don't think that the crossbow is some evil tool, it's not. The biggest problem I see is where do the "modern" primitive weapons fit into the hunting picture. It used to be a definite line between primitive and modern weapons. Now that line is very muddy and the question is where do they belong?  primitive game seasons were originally set apart from the general game season to allow hunters who chose to use less effective weapons (in terms of success) a period with less pressure to increase their odds of success. This worked fine at first because due to the increased difficulty and lower success rates even with a seperate season only the more dedicated hunters participated. The goal of most being not necessarily to harvest game but to increase the challenge and spend more time afield. Then came the commercialization of big game hunting. Suddenly the goal of large numbers of hunters became not the hunt itself but how many and how big. those hunters looked to the primitive season to build their numbers. The hangup was the success rate was lower and it took more time. neccessity being the mother of invention they found ways to make it easier and more successful...... to the point the primitive seasons really are not much more of a challenge than the gun season and EVERYONE is jumping on the bandwagon.Case in point the new "modern muzzle loaders with electronic ignition. Combine them with powder pellets and a saboted bulletin one convenient package (caseless cartridge) and tell me how that differs from a breech loader with a brass cartridge. Even though the crossbow has similar range to the common bows it still crosses the line into rifle territory in many peoples minds.  I personally am questioning whether there should even be a primitive season anymore. Many game departments could just as well just divide up the hunting season into segments, limit the number of hunters per segment and let them use any weapon of choice. I doubt any difference would be noticed.
I did pick up a crossbow in the store the other day. It felt like putting a shoe on the wrong foot  so much so that I suspect I will likely prove my doctor wrong even if it takes me a few years I have to draw a bow back with my teeth
Just another worthless opinion!!

Offline jh45gun

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2007, 05:47:10 PM »
Dakotashooter OK I have a solution for you. Buy a Excaliber recurve crossbow it is not a compound so there for it will be somewhat primitive as it is a recurve. Then put no scope on it or red dot but use the standard pin set up that comes with the xbow that also would be considered more primitive. If you want to go more primitive yet then buy a crossbow that is made like the old fashioned ones and hunt with that they do make them though they are a custom order type thing. While it may take some effort to get used to one I would bet if you shot an Excaliber a few times you may begin to like it. I think the recurve Excalibers has a smoother let off than the Compound xbows do and they have one of the best triggers on the market too plus they are accurate. IF then still not for you fine but Most archery shops have a place you can try them out. I would not let stubborn pride get into the way of maybe a good thing for you. Give them a try at a shop first before you close the door on them. Read the blogs of the guys who due to disability or age tried them and liked them. Quite a few out there myself included. I used a bow for years.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Tim50

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2007, 02:00:52 AM »
jh45gun-Many crossbow forums have had to post a disclaimer stating "this is not a crossbow debate forum" in an attempt to control the influx of anti posters! I honestly am tired of the same old emotional outburst. I have yet to hear a legit anti position that holds water. It usually ends up in personal attacks & the post being locked. In Pennsylvania there is a small vocal group that I believe they look to disrupt any crossbow conversation. While this is an open forum the constant attacks get very old! If the anti Trollers say on topic & contribute I have no issue when the sniping starts it is time for Mod action!! Thanks for sticking to your guns to make the Crossbow Forum a Crossbow friendly area.  I am fighting the same battle on a local forum and they have finally stepped up.....Crossbow talk in the Crossbow forum  no attacks.....what a novel idea!!!!

Offline jh45gun

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2007, 07:08:06 AM »
Thanks Tim good idea I should have thought of that before. I will do that.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline 1187VX2

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2007, 07:40:45 AM »
The anti-crossbow argument I find the most obnoxious is the "If you aren't willing to practice and become good with a vertical bow, you don't deserve any part of archery hunting."

The price I pay for a deer tag is the same as the next guy.  Who is anybody to tell me how I should do it?

Never used a crossbow, but don't see anything wrong with them.  Wish they were all just legal everywhere so this debate would go away.

Offline jh45gun

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2007, 09:31:06 AM »
The anti-crossbow argument I find the most obnoxious is the "If you aren't willing to practice and become good with a vertical bow, you don't deserve any part of archery hunting."

The price I pay for a deer tag is the same as the next guy.  Who is anybody to tell me how I should do it?

Never used a crossbow, but don't see anything wrong with them.  Wish they were all just legal everywhere so this debate would go away.

I agree with you I think every one should be able to use one if they want to. It has been shown ih the states that every one can use one things really have not changed that much just gives ya another tool to use.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline markc

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2007, 03:14:17 AM »
jh45gun I think the solution you offered to dakotashooter sounded reasonable.  Having been a recurve shooter since high school archery team and a compound bow hunter for nearly 20 years, I only recently purchased an X-bow simply because I was interested in learning how to shot and hunt with one, not necessarily to replace completely my compound bow.    But the discussions and arguments back and forth here and in magazines etc..seem very unfortunate to me.   

I watched a hunting program the other day on  MOR (men's outdoors and recreation) and the guys hunting javelina in TX were using a gadget that held their compound bows at full draw.  Now to me, the hypocrisy is that this gadget would be legal  and vertical bow hunters are not creating an uproar, but point to the ability to lock the X-bow at full draw as unfair, wrong or something that contributes to it's not being a "bow" or "archery equipment."   How illogical.   Anyway, being new to X-bow's I have already learned a good bit just reading the threads here and asking a few questions.   Keep up the good work. 
markc

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2007, 05:25:37 AM »
A drawlock is not legal for bowhunting in KS or MO

Online Graybeard

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2007, 05:35:27 AM »
Not legal in Bama either but crossbows are.


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Offline LEO

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2007, 09:17:05 AM »
I hunt with a compound, muzzleloader, rifle, crossbow and thanks to one of the fine members of this forum, this year a recurve.  With that said, really what difference does it make if a person chooses to hunt with a crossbow as opposed to some other kind of hunting implement.  In KY you can only kill one buck and one doe (if bonus tags are purchased you can kill 2 more does and in some areas unlimited does as long as you keep buying tags) so if a hunter can only kill 4 deer and then they are done what diffeerence does it make what they use to kill the deer.  There are plenty of deer and the more legal hunters we get out there the stronger our voice is. As a side note, one of the big bow hunting only supporters in my area was caught hunting over an illegal bait pile season before last so there is a lot more to ethics than what you choose to hunt with.

Offline Tim50

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Re: Well here we go again Field and Stream enter the crossbow fray
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2007, 10:56:01 AM »
LEO,
     I could not agree more! It is about choice! What I carry in the woods should not affect your hunt! As for the SLOB hunting over bait him being a jerk was not defined by his choice of weapon! Congrats to you guys in KY on your crossbow seasons & we are slowly getting there here in Pennsylvania! We will kep the faith!!!!