Author Topic: NEF needs to step up (Read 1095 times)

Smokin Joe · « **on:** June 07, 2007, 03:51:11 PM »

It's 2007, if Knight can issue their KP-1 in .300 mag, then NEF needs to step up to the challenge. A little more metal in the frame sides ala "Encore" might just do the trick.......a 7/16 hinge pin wouldn't hurt, either

http://www.knightrifles.com/NR/rdonlyres/4BF517A7-D162-4897-AAD1-E8892F68E394/0/KP1_Press_Release.pdf

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** June 07, 2007, 03:57:55 PM »

Unfortunately that would mean a price increase and they wouldn't be the bargain they are anymore. Even the CVA Optima Elite which uses a similar latch and latch shelf, costs more, and their barrels are made in Spain. The OE is supposed to be available in 300 Win Mag, but that remains to be seen, the barrels were supposed to be available the end of April.

Tim

http://rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GCR4800

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #2 on:** June 07, 2007, 04:31:58 PM »

I'd expect to pay a little more for a high pressure frame.......maybe a 26" stainless option....maybe a selectable ejector/extractor.........

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** June 07, 2007, 04:38:00 PM »

You can see where the SS version will lead in cost, the selectable ejector/extractor is gonna cost big $$!

Tim

http://rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GCR4801S

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #4 on:** June 07, 2007, 06:25:10 PM »

Don't mess with success. If ya need more go get a Ruger #1.

Rusty <><

Mac11700 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 07, 2007, 07:06:36 PM »

Quote from: Rustyinfla on June 07, 2007, 06:25:10 PM

Don't mess with success. If ya need more go get a Ruger #1.

Rusty <><

Or an Optima Elite when they come out in 300WM..

Mac

James B · « **Reply #6 on:** June 07, 2007, 07:32:49 PM »

There are enough flame belching ,shoulder busting, ear splitting magnums out there already. IMO If they go to a Magnum it will raise the price of all of their guns. Its 2007 but magnums are not necessarily a step ahead. Again that's JMO.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 07, 2007, 07:40:33 PM »

Quote from: James B on June 07, 2007, 07:32:49 PM

There are enough flame belching ,shoulder busting, ear splitting magnums out there already. IMO If they go to a Magnum it will raise the price of all of their guns. Its 2007 but magnums are not necessarily a step ahead. Again that's JMO.

Not really...one way they could do it would be...If they kept the normal line of SB-1 & SB-2's...and in-corporated enough changes to them..so they couldn't be switched to a SB-1 or SB-2 frame...then they would only have to charge a premium for those they produced for the magnums......This would make more sense to me than changing the entire platform...Problem is..How many would they sell

That's the key I think...

Mac

James B · « **Reply #8 on:** June 07, 2007, 08:07:43 PM »

Maybe. I still think the cost of getting the bugs out would be spread across the whole line. I admit though, I just don't care for the Magnums except for the 44 Handguns and the .22 Magnum. But to each his own, all the new magnums are good for the gun companies.

db22 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 08, 2007, 12:24:08 AM »

"Don't mess with success. If ya need more go get a Ruger #1." Rusty said it all -- these little guns are plenty of fun just as they are.

This line of discussion reminds of Col. Jeff Cooper's remarks about the .30-'06 cartridge: "I have long taught that if you can't do it with a 30-06, you probably can't do it. Every time some new brass powder bottle appears for sale, all sorts of people, qualified or otherwise, leap into the breach to explain how this new round is somehow better than what has gone before. Whether it is better or not must depend upon what it is designed to do, and it is effectively impossible to say that a shooter accomplished his purpose in the field with the new cartridge in a way that he could not have done with a 30-06."

A tweaked Handi in .30-'06 fitted with a good scope, and a basic reloading outfit -- amen!!

eskimo36 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 08, 2007, 02:50:53 AM »

Look at the difference between the original contenders and the encore SS pro-hunters in price. Over the last few years I have purchased several (4) low pressure original contender carbines in the $300-$400 range. Encore pro-hunters go in the $700-$800 range and now the old contender is gone for a more expensive beefed up replacement. I don't want that to happen to the handi. My 38-55 Target Model is as pretty a gun as there is in my opinion and at a fraction of the cost of any other 28" walnut stocked single shot. It will shoot with any of its higher priced peers in the same caliber. Don't mess with success. Enjoy the handi for what it is. Get a Ruger, get a Browning, get an Encore if you want a high pressure single shot. You can't get much flatter than 58 gr 243 loads or 85 grain 25-06 loads and you can't hit much harder than high end 45-70 or 500 S&W loads. I even have a 7.62x39 barrel that will do anything the highly touted 300 whisper will do in a platform (the handi) that is half the cost of the next higher priced option( the contender). Embrace the diversity that we have in the handi. Sure I wish for more cartridges but i wish for 25-20, 32-20, 250 savage and 218 bee, but not wsm's and wssm's or 375' H&H or 458's.

Good luck and good shooting.

Brett · « **Reply #11 on:** June 08, 2007, 03:53:50 AM »

I have to agree with the last two posters. There are plenty of other options available if you just have to have a magnum. I would much rather see NEF/H&R put a little more time, money and effort into resolving some of the qc issues and making barrels and frames fully interchangeable without having to send them back to the factory for fitting than in developing magnum Handis.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #12 on:** June 08, 2007, 05:00:52 AM »

I agree that the present line of NEF/H&R rifles are a lot of gun for the money; I've owned them since H&R came out with the Shikari way back when.
I'm also of the opinion that the word "magnum" doesn't mean anything to me.....I'd rather look at cartridge performance than the size of the case head.
My point is that I think there is room for a strengthened single shot action in the NEF line.........probably separate from the Handi Rifle series, and with about 3 oz of metal in the casting, this could be accomplished.
Tell me you wouldn't want the option of a stainless .375 Ruger, .350 Remington or .416 in a compact single shot rifle.
As for Col. Cooper's comment on the .30-06 "I have long taught that if you can't do it with a 30-06, you probably can't do it", this rings true for probably 80% of hunting situations...........I also remember when he just about had his butt handed to him by a cape buffalo that he had just shot with the .350 Remington.
I believe there is room for an improved product line.

PartsMan · « **Reply #13 on:** June 08, 2007, 06:03:27 AM »

I don't think they need to make magnums.
It would have to be cheaper than the cheap bolt guns or it wouldn't sell.
I'd rather see them offer special runs of smaller oddball rounds.

superjay01 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 08, 2007, 07:01:35 AM »

Right on partsman I think a 257 Roberts and or a 260 is the first they should do!

Mac11700 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 08, 2007, 07:46:09 AM »

Quote from: smokinjoe5150 on June 08, 2007, 05:00:52 AM

I agree that the present line of NEF/H&R rifles are a lot of gun for the money; I've owned them since H&R came out with the Shikari way back when.
I'm also of the opinion that the word "magnum" doesn't mean anything to me.....I'd rather look at cartridge performance than the size of the case head.
My point is that I think there is room for a strengthened single shot action in the NEF line.........probably separate from the Handi Rifle series, and with about 3 oz of metal in the casting, this could be accomplished.
Tell me you wouldn't want the option of a stainless .375 Ruger, .350 Remington or .416 in a compact single shot rifle.
As for Col. Cooper's comment on the .30-06 "I have long taught that if you can't do it with a 30-06, you probably can't do it", this rings true for probably 80% of hunting situations...........I also remember when he just about had his butt handed to him by a cape buffalo that he had just shot with the .350 Remington.
I believe there is room for an improved product line.

Joe...You hit the proverbial nail on the head...It would take a few more ounces of metal in the receiver to make it work..Quick and myself we just discussing this very thing this morning..and last week,month,year/s...

Instead of having a 90* angle where the frame meets the receiver face..angle it like a truss gusset..this will help reduce any flex the frame has..Make the under lugs and latch out of a better grade of steel that is hardened properly..and close the opening in it..so it will have a larger bearing surface..Make the barrel latch lever out of a better grade of steel with tighter tolerances..and improve the spring tension by 50%...Put a stop catch on the transfer bar so it doesn't have to raise up as far...and improve the tolerances of all the linkage so it removes most of all the slop in it...and improve the fitting of the barrels to the receivers...There can't be any burrs on the shelf at all..and also just important...improve the Q/C of the barrel chambers & bores...The barrels themselves are pretty darn good...they just need to get the specs better on them..Will it cost more to do this..Yes...it will...How much..I figure about $50-$100 more per unit over all...Can they do it...sure..Are they willing to...I really don't think they are right now...If they did these things..and the Handi cost as much as the Elite...would they sell as many...I don't know...maybe...I think more folks would be hammering their barrel program more..and buy fewer complete rifles..but the issues they have now would go away..and they would have a much better product..capable of doing a-lot more than it is..They would have to make it so any of the new magnums wouldn't fit any older receivers for liability reasons...and would they continue the SB-1 & Sb-2 lines...

This I don't honestly know..

I think if they were smart..they would implement some of these changes any way and folks would see the increase in the price wither or not they make any magnums......but...most of us have been telling them this for many years...and they haven't listened very well..

There is a call for some of the magnums in a Handi..more than a-lot of folks realize...All of this talk about if you can't get it done with such & such caliber is personal opinions...Everybody has different wants & needs...and they don't have any right to keep folks from getting what they want..

There are several nice magnums I would like to have..and yes..I want them in an affordable single shot..be it in a Handi..or an Elite..One way or the other..I'll have them..The more choices I have..the better it is for me...I don't have a problem spending money...but I want to spend it on a rifle that won't fail or give me problems..or have to spend more than I should to get what I want and........I want the availability of being able to change the barrels myself with out modifying the rifle or barrel...or sending it back to the company to be done..There's really no reason to have to do this..all it takes is the Q/C & specs to be better...

Mac

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #16 on:** June 08, 2007, 07:53:29 AM »

Well said, Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** June 08, 2007, 08:18:58 AM »

Quote from: Mac11700 on June 08, 2007, 07:46:09 AM

Joe...You hit the proverbial nail on the head...It would take a few more ounces of metal in the receiver to make it work..Quick and myself we just discussing this very thing this morning..and last week,month,year/s...

Instead of having a 90* angle where the frame meets the receiver face..angle it like a truss gusset..this will help reduce any flex the frame has..Make the under lugs and latch out of a better grade of steel that is hardened properly..and close the opening in it..so it will have a larger bearing surface..Make the barrel latch lever out of a better grade of steel with tighter tolerances..and improve the spring tension by 50%...Put a stop catch on the transfer bar so it doesn't have to raise up as far...and improve the tolerances of all the linkage so it removes most of all the slop in it...and improve the fitting of the barrels to the receivers...There can't be any burrs on the shelf at all..and also just important...improve the Q/C of the barrel chambers & bores...The barrels themselves are pretty darn good...they just need to get the specs better on them..Will it cost more to do this..Yes...it will...How much..I figure about $50-$100 more per unit over all...Can they do it...sure..Are they willing to...I really don't think they are right now...If they did these things..and the Handi cost as much as the Elite...would they sell as many...I don't know...maybe...I think more folks would be hammering their barrel program more..and buy fewer complete rifles..but the issues they have now would go away..and they would have a much better product..capable of doing a-lot more than it is..They would have to make it so any of the new magnums wouldn't fit any older receivers for liability reasons...and would they continue the SB-1 & Sb-2 lines... This I don't honestly know..

I think if they were smart..they would implement some of these changes any way and folks would see the increase in the price wither or not they make any magnums......but...most of us have been telling them this for many years...and they haven't listened very well..

There is a call for some of the magnums in a Handi..more than a-lot of folks realize...All of this talk about if you can't get it done with such & such caliber is personal opinions...Everybody has different wants & needs...and they don't have any right to keep folks from getting what they want..

There are several nice magnums I would like to have..and yes..I want them in an affordable single shot..be it in a Handi..or an Elite..One way or the other..I'll have them..The more choices I have..the better it is for me...I don't have a problem spending money...but I want to spend it on a rifle that won't fail or give me problems..or have to spend more than I should to get what I want and........I want the availability of being able to change the barrels myself with out modifying the rifle or barrel...or sending it back to the company to be done..There's really no reason to have to do this..all it takes is the Q/C & specs to be better...

Mac

Sourdough · « **Reply #18 on:** June 08, 2007, 08:51:47 AM »

If you don't like the inexpensive NEFs then get a Knight or an Encore. Leave well enough alone. Love my NEFs.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 08, 2007, 09:35:38 AM »

Quote from: PartsMan on June 08, 2007, 06:03:27 AM

I don't think they need to make magnums.
It would have to be cheaper than the cheap bolt guns or it wouldn't sell.
I'd rather see them offer special runs of smaller oddball rounds.

Partsman:

They could still do it cheaper than most bolt guns..and have truly one of the best SS rifles on the market..From a business aspect...making small runs of odd ball calibers isn't practical or profitable...Tooling up to do them isn't cheap...and only having a limited amounts available won't work for their distributorship..It makes it more complicated for everyone trying to get them..As it is now..I think the minimum order for doing this is 500 units..and they normally don't offer these barrels on their accessory program as a rule strictly for retail..unless they are clearing them out..like they did with the Ultra-comps..If they made the needed changes to the barrels..they too will cost a little more by themselves..

Realistically..sooner or later there will be some price increases...With the cost of oil being as it is..everything will be going up...I don't know when..but it is inevitable... IMHO..getting a much stronger..better built Handi is worth spending a little extra for..and like I said..I may never have as many complete rifles as others..this is no big deal to me...but I darn sure can have a bunch of different barrels...Isn't that one of the best things about these rifles...Think about it...to be able to walk into most stores that stock NEF's...wouldn't it be great to see Handi barrels available on the shelf and be able to buy one and take it home right then..put it on and shoot it with out having to file on it..or shim anything on it..or have to wait for weeks to get it back? This is partly what I am talking about...To be able to do this..the specs are going to have to be improved so it can...The technology is being used by other companies to make them right now...and in much larger calibers than what is available to the NEF owners...Those that want them..at least have the option to buy one if they wanted to...There really isn't any reason Marlin can't do the same...If they wanted to...

Some folks don't want to see any changes to the NEF's...that they are good enough for them as is...Well..I say this.....Sorry..I don't agree with ya...I want to see some positive changes happen...and if Marlin/NEF can make a better stronger rifle that offers more in every way for a little more than they are right now...I say YES...Go For It...make the needed changes to make a better/stronger rifle...offer different barrel lengths/ coutures/ calibers..While your at it..offer a full stainless receiver..build it strong enough that some magnums can be offered..Tighten up the quality controls for the production of them..and hold the rifles spec to better standard...

You really have to ask yourself...why any one wouldn't want a better Handi...and why they want to keep it as it is....especially when these can be made better..

Everyone here enjoys them right?

Right now..we do have to buy someone else's rifle..To me..those responsible for making the Handi's should be asking this question to those under them on the corporate ladder...Don't you think? If I ran a company..and folks started buying my competitors rifles...I sure as hell would want to know why...and there is no way I would say...If they don't like what we offer..they can go buy some one else's rifles...

For folks wanting some realistic changes and speaking out about it aren't doing bad thing..Folks wanting no changes at all because for fear they may cost more are...They are keeping the company from competing on a level playing field with the rest of the manufactures..by giving them a false impression no one wants changes due to cost..No one wants to spend more than they have t...me more than anyone else....but to get more...we will have to pay more...I'm more than willing to pay a little more to see the company move forward...and to stop building them like they have..

Mac

moxgrove · « **Reply #20 on:** June 08, 2007, 10:00:34 AM »

I have to agree. I would pay more money for the magnum frame. I really want a 9.3x 74. I can go the whole custom route and build a Handi with about 600 into it or I can order the ruger. My local shop can get it for me for 780. It isn't that big of a price difference for the quality issue. I love the Handis and definitely would pay more for a beefier model or series.