Author Topic: Home grown POWER BELT type bullets????? (Read 2284 times)

Darrell Davis · « **on:** May 24, 2003, 03:29:30 PM »

Hey there folks,

A fellow I work with is using POWER BELT bullets in his muzzle loader, but isn't liking the cost. He is asking me if there is any way to home grow something of this type. A sabot is not the answer where lives, due to the cal. of slug restrictions in his state.

A POWER BELT is a is a lead conical bullet with a snap on plastic base.

I have told him that by the time he gets the molds etc. it won't be worth it.

Do any of you black powder shooters have any answers I can relay to Ol' Dave?

Keep em coming! :wink:

kevin · « **Reply #1 on:** May 24, 2003, 03:54:47 PM »

I'm not sure if this will help but, if you go to mid south shooters supply, thiers a company that makes power belts for cva, the name is black belt bullets, they are the same, and a little cheaper, sometimes buy going direct its a bit cheaper, but i don't know anyone who makes power belt wannabee's, but thier could be someone out thier who does.
kevin

johnt · « **Reply #2 on:** May 24, 2003, 04:17:54 PM »

Tell ole' Dave what kevin said is right.
CVA has a paten on the "power belt" and it's a done deal.
Black Belt are the same because of a corprate deal,but they don't have the marketing capabilities.
Both are spendy.
Find out what cal. and twist rate Dave has in his BP gun,and maybe we can help find another accurate load for him.
Also what powder does he favore? Pellets or loose?
Thanks fer checkin here,see ya after the holiday. :grin:

bubba · « **Reply #3 on:** May 25, 2003, 01:04:34 AM »

why not just shoot a cheaper lead conical??? Just as effective and much cheaper

Triple Se7en · « **Reply #4 on:** May 25, 2003, 04:02:41 AM »

Bubba

What cheap conical will fly like a Powerbelt and/or sabot? Who's hiding this gem... I've been all over the world net for the last 6 months lookin' fur this baby.... c'mon Bubba.... disclose the manufacturer .. and/or... the website. Conical sales are sliding into a single precentage point on the bp bullet market... they sure could use a boost with this new invention. No more holding out Bubba... time to spill the beans.

Underclocked · « **Reply #5 on:** May 25, 2003, 04:09:05 AM »

Try some NoExcuses bullets. They are heavier than most of the Power Belts but shoot VERY well in a lot of rifles.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #6 on:** May 25, 2003, 05:05:57 AM »

Hey there,

Thanks for the come backs!!

I will bend Ol' Daves ear a bit more come the day after the Holiday and see what he has to say.

H O W E V E R, the plan is to go caught a SALMON on the North Fork of the Clearwater river on Memorial Day. S O, wish me luck, I need a whole lot more then I had during steelhead season, as the score was 3 on but nothing in the net.

Headed up the road after a bit to worship the KING, and that is not as in salmon! Praise His name!

Keep em coming! :wink:

bubba · « **Reply #7 on:** May 25, 2003, 05:22:31 AM »

hey triple seven relax it is ok take your pills. I shoot the lee REAL Bullet 250 grain in my 50 cal they shoot as accurately as any power belt i ever shot and are as deadly. Bad part is you have to mold them yourself which is way too much work I understand.

Triple Se7en · « **Reply #8 on:** May 25, 2003, 06:04:34 AM »

Sorry to say Bubba

Those REALS won't put a 5" circle at 200 yards like a sabot or Powerbelt will. But you're right... they're cheap & accurate... just not coefficient enough... thanks anyways!

bubba · « **Reply #9 on:** May 25, 2003, 06:33:20 AM »

I will match them up against anything out there with the right load worked up. And I guess my question would be why 200 yard shots in the first place. I hunt and get close to my game. I am willing to bet I can put them in a 5 inch group at 200 yards. 5 in a row

Triple Se7en · « **Reply #10 on:** May 25, 2003, 07:47:57 AM »

again Bubba

If those REALS are so special, why can't I buy them whole at Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dixie... etc??

The only rifle twist where a conical even holds a candle to Powerbelts & sabots is the 1-48"... so few of those are sold these days.

As a courtesy, this website outlines what conicals do against sabots with the same load & gun. There are several conicals there very similar to your REALS. The numbers don't lie and I really don't want to see ol' Bubba wasting an afternoon trying to work-up an accurate 200 yard load from his mass produced side-hammer rifle while aiming 40" above his target.

http://www.prbullet.com

I'm done on this subject unless you can prove otherwise by way of video or website data.

bubba · « **Reply #11 on:** May 25, 2003, 08:47:06 AM »

yeah your mind is made up why confuse you with the facts. Dont be so quiick to judge oithers before you know them ok. a typical thing stop the conversation before you are proved wrong. I have only been shooting muzzleloaders for about 25 years. Judging by your name I would say maybe 2 . But since you shoot modern stuff that of course makes you an expert. I beg you humble forgiveness oh master

bubba · « **Reply #12 on:** May 25, 2003, 08:53:25 AM »

by the way my mass produced side lock is a T/C hawken and a lyman trade rifle. the tc has a 1:48 twist and the trade has 1:66. tell me about all your wonderful guns. I will wait until you look some up if you want.

Triple Se7en · « **Reply #13 on:** May 25, 2003, 11:25:41 AM »

T/C Omega LSS 50c 28" barrel 1-28" twist
Traditions Shenandoah 50c 33-1/2" barrel 1-66" twist
Traditions Tracker 50c 22" barrel 1-28" twist (about to be sold)
Traditions Kentucky Pistol 50c 10" barrel 1-20" twist (for sale)

Coming Soon....
Winchester Apex Magnum 45c 30" barrel 1-28" (replacing the Tracker)
Navy Arms Hunter Hawkens 58c 22" barrel 1-48" twist (or) T/C Renegade 58c 26" barrel 1-48" twist

I've been wanting a 58 cal for many years.... may have to wait on that one until 2004.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #14 on:** May 25, 2003, 12:18:20 PM »

Hey there Triple Se7en.

Seems to me the folk at the link you included in your last post have made their point.

Unless someone comes up with some other good ideas for Ol' Dave, I think what I told him last Friday about needing a 54 still stands. With the 54 he can use a sabot and still meet the caliber requirements for his state. With his 50 he is out of luck for ELK where he lives.

Keep em coming! :wink:

kevin · « **Reply #15 on:** May 25, 2003, 01:39:51 PM »

HeY GUYS TAKE A BLUE PILL AND RELAX,YOU BOTH ARE GETTING IN AN ARGUMENT , THAT IS A BAD PLACE TO BE IN, FIRST OFF TRIPPLE SEVEN YOUR SHOOTING THAT INLINE WITH OPTICS ATTACHED OUT TO 200 YARDS AND SIR , THATS COOL, BUT I CHALLENGE YOU TO PUT THAT GUN UP, AND GET YOU A FLINT LOCK AND NOT WHAT YOU CALL A MASS PRODUCED ONE GET ONE BUILT BY A REAL BLACK POWDER GUNSMITH , YOU CAN FIND THEM ON THIS BOARD OR THE NMLRA SITE.
AND BUBBA DON'T LET THE NEWBEE, GET YOUR GOAT HE OBVIOUSLY DON'T REALIZE HIS WONDER GUN IS ALSO MASSED PRODUCED, AND COSTS MORE THAN YOU HAVE SPENT

bubba · « **Reply #16 on:** May 25, 2003, 02:42:15 PM »

no one is getting my goat. In fact I think just the opposite. The only advice I could give would be some my Dad gave me years ago. It is far better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you know nothing rather than to open your mouth and prove it. I have no plan to argue, I am simply feeling sorry for the know it all.

johnt · « **Reply #17 on:** May 25, 2003, 02:48:18 PM »

heeheeheee!

Triple Se7en · « **Reply #18 on:** May 25, 2003, 04:02:49 PM »

The only "chomping" going on is by big bad Bubba! I never chastised him in my posts fellas. I objected to his theory -- asked him for references & only spoke of his inability to back-up his statements that an inexpensive conical can work the same as a Powerbelt in most guns. He attacked my being & character in a few prior posts on this subject.. obviously he sets his moral standards much lower than mine. I'm still waiting on some REALS data or any similar conical data Bubba. I gave you prbullets.com to compare... here's another of my references that contains bullet data.

http://www.powerbeltbullets.com

bubba · « **Reply #19 on:** May 26, 2003, 01:52:17 AM »

paper will set there and let you write anything on it I challenge you to try some at the same distances. In fact I will mail you 50 for free to try. Just because it does not come in a pretty package does not mean it will not work.

bubba · « **Reply #20 on:** May 26, 2003, 02:09:22 AM »

I guess that my question would be. Do I accept the data from the company producing the bullet to be real accurae or might just slightly be slanted toward their product. Dont get me worng powerbelts are nice but I believe the original post was about something as good but cheaper. I see nothing there about 200 yard hail mary shots or anything of the sort. That would be like going to a toyota site to find out which truck is best. I bet their data does not say Ford is best either. And if you look back the minute I mentioned a lead conical you are the one who did the attacking as much as daring me to find something as good as if it does not exist. So do yourself a favor and dont break your arm patting yourself on the back here and go play with your toys ok. Dont knock it until you try it.

daddywpb · « **Reply #21 on:** May 26, 2003, 02:14:52 AM »

I used to use the Lee REAL bullets, and they were plenty accurate. Sadly, I just can't find the time to do much casting anymore, so I tried the Powerbelts, and will stick with them. Considering their great performance on game, and the accuracy you can get from them out of almost any rifle, I think they are a great bargain. If you order from Black Belt, they have heavier bullets available, up to 500 grains.

sharpshooter · « **Reply #22 on:** May 26, 2003, 06:45:25 AM »

The powerbelts are a little costly, but they shoot good. I am planning on trying them in my Remington 50 cal. mzl. I have a Encore .45 cal. mzl. and will probably try them in it. I don't shoot the mzl that much anyway just during hunting season so I guess the price will have to do. I will just zero it in and go from there. Our muzzleloader season don't go very long here in Tn. anyway.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #23 on:** May 26, 2003, 12:58:26 PM »

Hey folks,

Glad to hear from Daddywph and SharpShooter and the other few which were able to dwell on the topic! All I wanted to get was a bit of information for Ol'Dave and I almost started a civil war.

I will grill Ol' Dave a bit on Tuesday if he makes it to work and then come back with a handful of FACTS. At that point, maybe we can put together a few more tips for him.

The only thing I remember at this point was Dave saying something about he thought the rate of twist was wrong for the Maxi Ball.

The only BP experience I've had is back aways, and all of it before Power Belts, sabots and the other goodies available now.

:grin:

PS. Caught that Salmon!! 36" - 17 1/2 lbs. Female, so that gives me some eggs to cure for next season. Lost 2 and my partner caught his limit of 2. These are King/Chinook salmon come home to start the cycle all over again

Keep em coming! :wink:

sharpshooter · « **Reply #24 on:** May 26, 2003, 03:39:16 PM »

Thats true about the twist rate of the barrel. I bought my .45 cal. barrel last spring and found out after I bought it and shot it a few times that it had a 1:20 twist in it. NOT GOOD! So I sent it back and had them send me a new one. It is suppose to have a 1:28 twist in it, I haven't shot it yet because my reciever at the present time is having some trigger work done on it by Fred at bullberry. Man I wish it and my new barrel would hurry up and get here. :excuseme: :yeah: :jeep: :bye:

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #25 on:** May 27, 2003, 05:17:50 AM »

Hey guys,

Ol'Dave made it to work, and he says -------

The smoke pole is a TC Black Diamond XR -- 28 inch barrel with 1 in 28 twist and the caliber is 50.

Hope that gives you a bit more info to work with.

Keep em coming!

:wink:

johnt · « **Reply #26 on:** May 28, 2003, 08:52:17 PM »

Well OK,go down the page just a bit and look a Grump's posting of the BD Load.
Grumps a freind of mine and we both fired that rifle he speaks of a few weeks ago. I guarentee that shallow groove fast twist false muzzle easy loading plastic thing WILL NOT shoot a full lead bullet with any accuracy.
There ain't enough rifling to grab the lead.(period) We shot that thing for hours.Tried 8 different projectiles.
We did find an ok verticle group at 50 using 365 gr full sabot type projetiles in front of about 70grs 2f t7,and determined if a feller cleaned the bore with a proper plastic cleaner stuff it would get better.
I found the Black Diamond to be just a little too light for me,it could use a little more weight in the butt end to give it better balance,and a funny thing happened with the trigger about 3 times out of 50. It was almost like a hang fire but it was with the mechinism,pull the trigger and it did nothing,2 seconds later it went off,scary,we just figgered it needed a break down and cleaning.
Those in-lines can be just as fussy for proper load and lube and prjectile as any of the traditional BP guns'. It just takes experimentation to find it.
To answer the original question, no there is no generic powerbelt type projectile,anything better than those cost more money.

Ya might tell ole'Dave just for me; that a patched round ball can out shoot'm all :-D , it has for centuries,the other are just a passing fad. :lol:

Triple Se7en · « **Reply #27 on:** May 29, 2003, 12:57:32 PM »

John

My huntin' bud's Black Diamond XR with a 1-28" twist has the same shallow rifling as described in your last post. Shallow rifled 28-twisters prefer sabots up to 300 grains and 400 grain conicals. When used with 100 grains Pyro or 777, in most cases -- they beat the pants off roundball rifles -- especially beyond 100 yards. It sounds as though you guys tried heavy sabots and lighter conicals -- you should of tried lighter sabots and heavy conicals.

Now in regards to your comment that the Omegas, Encores, Disc Extremes, White Thunderbots etc... etc.. are just a "passing fad".... please.... get up out of your chair... step away from your computer... walk outside and breathe deeply for a couple of minutes... something's clouding the side of your cerebrum that causes people to type words without thinking clearly. You'll be alright though... it's just a "passing fad"

Triple Se7en · « **Reply #28 on:** May 29, 2003, 01:21:41 PM »

Add-on to my post to John

Ya know John! No sooner than I finished typing my last retort to you, "I stepped outside" to have a cigarette. Ya know what else? I'm thinking clearer now.... maybe I should re-phrase my last parapgraph of my post above this one.

It is "quite possible" that a day will come in the near future where ALL DNRs begin restricting the use of these hi-tech muzzleloaders of today. As technology continues to increase, these Omegas, Encores... etc of today are beginning to produce bullet speeds and distances comparable to centerfire rifles.

Sooner or later, DNRs (maybe all) will set limits on BP bullet velocities... maybe even ban 209 in-lines entirely entirely. There are a few states that already only allow traditional rifles with primitive bullets, no 209 primers... no scopes ...etc.

When I insinuated that these hi-tech rifles were here to stay.... I was not using my cerebrum to it's full capacity... I stepped outside ... now I must correct my own post above... the Knights, Whites, T/Cs... etc.. of today may shoot themselves in the foot by continuing to increase distances a ML bullet can produce.

johnt · « **Reply #29 on:** May 29, 2003, 08:55:53 PM »

Thank you T se7en,
I never thought it as a retort,,really,, just sharing of experiance and differing schools.
Your right. By example the Savage 10ml. It has nothing to do with Black Powder,yet it's legal for the alternitive season in many areas.
I don't think that's what the DNR had in mind.
I took up BP for the sport involved,not just more meat in the freezer. The advent of bubble pack BP arms at wally mart for $100 + pelletized powder sure has changed the outlook of many.
I have learned to enjoy the Traditional aspect of BP,and have met many folks that share the same idea, good luck to ya,honest :-) ,it's not a competition of new vs. old,it's the fun,,by the way;mines bigger than yours, :grin: ,and my dad can beat up your dad :-D :-D

just teasing,,,,