450 Marlin.

[EsoxLucius]

My father owns a Remington mdl 600 that started out as a 350  then was rebarrelled to 458WM.

Interesting since the Remington Model 600 cannot be modified to accept a cartridge with a 3.34" overall length.

[GEMSBUCK]

I beg your pardon...I'd hate to be the one to tell him that...as he's had it since sometime in the 70s. Not 100% sure of the year but I think it was around 1972 that he rebarrelled it . My brother liked it so much that he had a 660 rebarrelled to 338WM to hunt grizzly with.
 My Whitworth and my brother's Zastava all shoot his ammo,well, and without being home (at the office) to measure them for OAL I'd say they are around 3.3-3.4.
 The trouble with making a comment like yours is someone can usually dismiss it easily when they know what their talking about. I'm no 'smith but I know what we have sure enough.

[EsoxLucius]

You certainly prove talk is cheap.

[mk454]

no dumb dumb, i never said i needed garretts for pigs, i was referring to bigger game, like the dangerous kind you're the immortal expert on.  you never ever answer questions, you just talk alot of crap though.  the failures of the .458 when loaded to too high a pressure is well documented, and not just by americans either. but then again it took how long for the all knowing to figure out that round nose solids don't perform as well on game as do flat nosed bullets.  now i suppose you're gonna argue with that.


then again what else would any of us here expect.

[GEMSBUCK]

I've disputed what the two of you claim. I did it without name calling or stooping to vulgar language a fact  you can lay claim to.
 I'd like to see where you can hunt DG legally with a 45-70 or 450M, I wonder why that is? so your point about Garretts on DG (cape buffalo was the topic) is really a moot one at best.
This thread has evolved to little more than another 45-70 and it's ilk bashing vs. the 458WM. Now the 2 of you have resorted to bashing...in poor taste.I'm sorry your knowledge of DG hunting is so limited. Mine may not be so grand when compared to some people but I'm fairly certain it's more than yours.

[mk454]

actually you have made many many condescending comments here, in fact, you're the one that took the focus off the original topic.  and............................... for one it's been well established that caliber restriction based on energy are foolish at best and a poor fix for a client's poor shooting, but yes, that's why the restrictions are in place.  nonsense and that's why several good elephant rounds aren't legal.

it's also why many outfitters think a .30-30 is ill equipped for elk and the like.  it's all nonsense.  shooting skill and proper bullet choice in the .450 will kill you anything you aim at.  to the original poster it's a great choice.

[mk454]

and.........the first name called here was by you gemsbuck.  i don't anyone here's being vulgar either.  pretty tame.

[Cabin4]

I'd like to see where you can hunt DG legally with a 45-70 or 450M, I wonder why that is?

You have got to be kidding me? How about Brown or Griz in Alaska? How about Cape Buffalo or Lion  in Africa?

Are you going to tell us that's its illegal to hunt these animals with a 45/70 or 450 marlin??

[nomosendero]

Hmmm, a 600 in 458WM & a 660 in 338WM !!! Were these set up as single shot only, did you remove the bolt to slide in the round or
was there room to open the bolt & feed. One thing for sure, you sure as heck did not use the magazine!!! Looks like a Ruger#1 would make more sense if you wanted a single shot. I would like to hear more.

Are you saying Mr. Lupo was illegal when he took the Big Five or the Big Six as they call it? Wouldn't that be a little risky to have this info on the Garret sight?

BTW, the Garret Bullet versus 458 penetration article on the Garret site was a good read. This is not to say that the 45-70 will out penetrate the 458, but rather it shows how important the bullet is in the equation, that's all.

[burntmuch]

So you have to hunt dangerous game to be a Big bore fan??

[Redhawk1]

GEMSBUCK, frankly you are on my last nerve.
First off you were the one that got rude by calling me a snot, did you forget that? Well I didn't .
Second, no one except you here mentioned DG with a 45-70 or 450 Marlin. And Yes a 45-70 and 450 Marlin are big bore guns.
Third, you were the one putting down the 45-70, you were trying to hijack this thread with your 458 WM hoopla.

If you don't like the fact that the 45-70 or 450 Marlin are considered Big bores then, MOVE ON.

[GEMSBUCK]

I'd like to see where you can hunt DG legally with a 45-70 or 450M, I wonder why that is?

.....How about Cape Buffalo or Lion  in Africa?

Are you going to tell us that's its illegal to hunt these animals with a 45/70 or 450 marlin??

Yes I am telling you that exactly most every country inAfricaa limits DG hunting to .375 H&H as the min. caliber. Lupo was hunitng game farm animals where it is legal to use <375H&H behind fence.

Redhawk I haven't forgotten how you replied to my first post either "..until you or anyone else..."
 Like I said earlier my 45Colt Win. legacy shoots .452 bullets and I'd hardly consider that a big bore qualified for hunting brownies , grizzly or even Lupo's big 6
 (and to use one of your favorite icons)

PS wanted to add I'm not a 'smith said so earlier but I'm good enough to know that the mag holds 2 down and 1 in the chamber when I see them in there. I forgot to measure the lenght of the bullets this weekend,'cause frankly I have a life other than sitting on message boards all weekend, but I'm almost 100% certain they are right around 3.30".

[GEMSBUCK]

I just called my dad whom measured one of his 458WM and gave me some imfo.
 He said they measure OAL 3.10-3.12 and he loads 300gr flat points which takes trimming the necks "short"* on the 2.5" cases and that a good heavy roll crimp must be put on. And that 70.0 H4895 is compressed "pretty hard"* hence the need for the heavier than normal crimp.
The magazine box will take *(and I'm not sure I understood this but will print what I think he was saying) a 3.15 OAL but was "opened " to do so. And the rails were "worked as well"

* inside the " " are his terms not mine

Like I said I'm not a gunsmith and pay someone whom is when I want work done. He also said that most people don't even know that a magnum was offered in the 600/660 as there were only about 14,000 made. And that not to confuse the 600 & 660 with the Mohawk 660.

[EsoxLucius]

I forgot to measure the lenght of the bullets this weekend,'cause frankly I have a life other than sitting on message boards all weekend, but I'm almost 100% certain they are right around 3.30".

Wow, bullets that are 3.30" long.  You sure that wasn't a 50 BMG conversion?

Thank you for confirming that a Remington Model 600 cannot accommodate a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.  Pretty limited in bullet selection I suppose.

[GEMSBUCK]

had you read on before letting your fingers type you'd have seen the 600 is indeed shooting that .458 in WM cases at over 2100fps (that's what he said his load of 70.0 gr H4895)
 Also a pretty good cheap shot by you to point out I used the word bullet instead of CARTRIDGE. An considering were were talking OAL earlier it would seem you're more interested in making an argument by grasping at threads than knowledge!

As for limits on bullet types  I'd say he only needs 1 brand/style to work...the same he's been killing his game with for several years now.

[Redhawk1]

Beats  me why anyone would want either the 450 or 45-70 when they could have a 458WM. Reloads cover the full spectrum from good 45-70 loads to elephant loads @ 500gr plus @ 2200fps.
 Do all you want to a 450 or 45-70 and it still isn't a mid load range 458WM. But a 458WM can easily shoot 405 gr Remington JSP @ 1800fps if you want to hunt hogs,deer,etc
 BTW I own 1 458WM (Whitworth) and 2 45-70s (1895 Marlin & 1871 Buffalo Classic)

GEMSBUCK, you came here with an agenda and don't like how you were received. Get over it !  We don't want your feelings getting hurt.

[victorcharlie]

Hey Gemsbuck.......my guess is you'll soon be in the ranks as one of Redhawk1's adopted children.....

There arn't very many of us who are given that status.......

One thing though......a 45.70 Marlin can be had much cheaper than most factory rifles chambered in  .458 magnum.......ammo cost aside.


Now.....you boys play nice.......

[nomosendero]

I just called my dad whom measured one of his 458WM and gave me some imfo.
 He said they measure OAL 3.10-3.12 and he loads 300gr flat points which takes trimming the necks "short"* on the 2.5" cases and that a good heavy roll crimp must be put on. And that 70.0 H4895 is compressed "pretty hard"* hence the need for the heavier than normal crimp.
The magazine box will take *(and I'm not sure I understood this but will print what I think he was saying) a 3.15 OAL but was "opened " to do so. And the rails were "worked as well"

* inside the " " are his terms not mine

Like I said I'm not a gunsmith and pay someone whom is when I want work done. He also said that most people don't even know that a magnum was offered in the 600/660 as there were only about 14,000 made. And that not to confuse the 600 & 660 with the Mohawk 660.

Actually, I think alot of people do know about the 600/660 offered in magnums, should be common knowledge to any gun buff over 45 years old or so. They were the 6.5 & 350 Rem. Mags & they were short mags with a Maximum C.O.L. of 2.800" & were designed for these SHORT actions.
This is the WHOLE reason that the 458 2" American was created, to fit a short action because like Esox. said, the 458 is too long & it is not a requirement to be a gunsmith to know that.

Even with the mags "opened up" to 3.15", this is far short of the 3.340" C.O.L. of 458WM ammo. So what you would have is a gun with an action/mag. too short for 458WM factory ammo & you can only use the short for caliber 300 gr. bullet. You and I both know that the 300 gr. is no dangerous game bullet. Obviously, the 300 gr. soft point load would not be as good for big stuff as the 45-70 Garret load that you critical of. Yet earlier in the thread you state that the 458 has such an edge for big animals because you can load the 500+ @ 2,200. Not in this gun!!!! You can call it a 458WM if you want to, but it isn't in my view or SAAMI's either.

You mention a 338WM in these short actions too! That is even worse considering the long, beautiful 338 bullets that you could not use, bullets that make the 338 useful. Even the 200gr. would be seated so deep that the round would be of no logical purpose.

[Cabin4]

I'd like to see where you can hunt DG legally with a 45-70 or 450M, I wonder why that is?

.....How about Cape Buffalo or Lion  in Africa?

Are you going to tell us that's its illegal to hunt these animals with a 45/70 or 450 marlin??

Yes I am telling you that exactly most every country inAfricaa limits DG hunting to .375 H&H as the min. caliber. Lupo was hunitng game farm animals where it is legal to use <375H&H behind fence.

First of all you did not answer regarding Griz & Brown in Alaska..... Second, now your conditioning your original statement that its "Most Countries" in Africa. The reason some countries in Africa do this is because of the low pressure levels most factory ammo comes in. But because there are idiots out there, those countries don't want to take the risk of some trying to kill a Cape Buf with a cowboy load thats designed for steel target work.

The 45-70 is capable of taking any big or dangerous game when properly loaded and the right bullet is selected for the particular animal.

[GEMSBUCK]

 300gr not heavy enough for DG Please don't tell all the DG that has been killed with 270gr bullets from a 375! I also know what a short action/mag is I own a few (243,300,325). I know just as well that my father and brother own 600/660 in 458wm and 338wm. Scream BS all you want that is a fact. Spout off all you like about what can an cannot be done,that doesn't change the fact they have them. If you want to talk to my 76 yr old father he'll explain what was done, as I stated several times I have no interest in doing that type of work as it holds no appeal to me. Guns are nothing more to me than a tool. If you endear them for other reasons great for you but don't try telling me what I know are facts.
 
 
And I didn't mention grizzly and browns because anyone whom has hunted buffalo and elephant knows that the bears don't have the bone structure or tenacity to life that those do.

[moxgrove]

So what happened to the experiences with deer and such using the 450 marlin that Dale asked about when he started this thread?

[nomosendero]

300gr not heavy enough for DG Please don't tell all the DG that has been killed with 270gr bullets from a 375! I also know what a short action/mag is I own a few (243,300,325). I know just as well that my father and brother own 600/660 in 458wm and 338wm. Scream BS all you want that is a fact. Spout off all you like about what can an cannot be done,that doesn't change the fact they have them. If you want to talk to my 76 yr old father he'll explain what was done, as I stated several times I have no interest in doing that type of work as it holds no appeal to me. Guns are nothing more to me than a tool. If you endear them for other reasons great for you but don't try telling me what I know are facts.
 
 
And I didn't mention grizzly and browns because anyone whom has hunted buffalo and elephant knows that the bears don't have the bone structure or tenacity to life that those do.

The fact that you mention a 270gr. 375 & the 300gr. 45cal. together at all speak volumes to me &
an indicator of all that is necessary.

[nomosendero]

Hey guys. I just bought a new unfired 450 Marlin barrel for my NEF Handi Rifle. How do you guys like the 450. I am really looking forward to shooting a big bore. I think I am going to put the Pentax Gameseeker 3x9x40 on it. It has the bullet drop reticle. What scope are you guys using? I also have been thinking of the Burris with the bullet drop compensator. I would also like to hear some stories about Deer / Elk / Moose and bear being taken with this round. I am going to use it for deer. Well tell what you think of it.

I think it's fine. I killed a couple of Deer with my Ultra last year & then sold the barrel. The results were what you would expect.

[GEMSBUCK]

300gr not heavy enough for DG Please don't tell all the DG that has been killed with 270gr bullets from a 375! I also know what a short action/mag is I own a few (243,300,325). I know just as well that my father and brother own 600/660 in 458wm and 338wm. Scream BS all you want that is a fact. Spout off all you like about what can an cannot be done,that doesn't change the fact they have them. If you want to talk to my 76 yr old father he'll explain what was done, as I stated several times I have no interest in doing that type of work as it holds no appeal to me. Guns are nothing more to me than a tool. If you endear them for other reasons great for you but don't try telling me what I know are facts.
 
 
And I didn't mention grizzly and browns because anyone whom has hunted buffalo and elephant knows that the bears don't have the bone structure or tenacity to life that those do.

The fact that you mention a 270gr. 375 & the 300gr. 45cal. together at all speak volumes to me &
an indicator of all that is necessary.

 "If" what you are trying to tell me is that a 270 gr .375H&H doesn't have the potential on DG the 300 gr .45 cal does  I don't understand why then the min in almost every african country is .375H&H with it's Ft#s of energy and the .45-70 with 300gr bullets doesn't make the cut. Or "if" the .458WM with 300gr bullets is inadequate fort DG...it isn't. Alot of shooters forget that 300gr bullets in the 458WM exist now that 450-500 gr bullets can be used without the compression that once plaqued that caliber.
 Anyway if you want to hunt true DG with a 450 Marlin you're either breaking the law where true Dg exists or you're foolish at best. It is however a great deer caliber with smallish blk bears and piggies thrown in too.

[moxgrove]

I haven't used the 450 marlin on deer, but have had excellent success with equivalent 45/70 loads. My new fav for jacketed is the 250 gr Barnes tsx. I push it to about 2300 fps in my handi. It works great, it does have some recoil in the light rifle though. I also like to use cast bullets at the old trap door levels. I've read enough accounts of them punching through Buffalo and horses back in the day that I think they will still work fine.  The 450 does only give the full house option for factory loads, But you can still handload for versatility.
  I may have misunderstood your original thought. I thought you had just bought a new barrel for your Handirifle and wanted to know how it does on deer and such. I didn't read the part where you were going after dinosaurs and giant beasts.

[nomosendero]

300gr not heavy enough for DG Please don't tell all the DG that has been killed with 270gr bullets from a 375! I also know what a short action/mag is I own a few (243,300,325). I know just as well that my father and brother own 600/660 in 458wm and 338wm. Scream BS all you want that is a fact. Spout off all you like about what can an cannot be done,that doesn't change the fact they have them. If you want to talk to my 76 yr old father he'll explain what was done, as I stated several times I have no interest in doing that type of work as it holds no appeal to me. Guns are nothing more to me than a tool. If you endear them for other reasons great for you but don't try telling me what I know are facts.
 
 
And I didn't mention grizzly and browns because anyone whom has hunted buffalo and elephant knows that the bears don't have the bone structure or tenacity to life that those do.

The fact that you mention a 270gr. 375 & the 300gr. 45cal. together at all speak volumes to me &
an indicator of all that is necessary.

 "If" what you are trying to tell me is that a 270 gr .375H&H doesn't have the potential on DG the 300 gr .45 cal does  I don't understand why then the min in almost every african country is .375H&H with it's Ft#s of energy and the .45-70 with 300gr bullets doesn't make the cut. Or "if" the .458WM with 300gr bullets is inadequate fort DG...it isn't. Alot of shooters forget that 300gr bullets in the 458WM exist now that 450-500 gr bullets can be used without the compression that once plaqued that caliber.
 Anyway if you want to hunt true DG with a 450 Marlin you're either breaking the law where true Dg exists or you're foolish at best. It is however a great deer caliber with smallish blk bears and piggies thrown in too.

I am not trying to tell you that, different wavelength.
You have no clue what I meant obviously. The 270gr. 375 has good sectional density & would penetrate very well if a good bullet, so the meaning was & is the fact that the 270gr. would be alot better penetrator than a short for cal. 300 gr. 458 & a soft point at that. I did not know anyone wanted to use a 45-70 with a 300 gr. for DG, so I don't know why you mention that. I never said I would hunt DG with a 450 Mar. & if someone wants to use a 300 soft point in a 458WM as you do, that would become a flat washer, it is their problem. That is what I meant by mentioning them together, the S.D.'s are not comparable.

[GEMSBUCK]

I use 450gr BTSX @2200fps in my 458WM...it is my father whom uses the 300s and he's killed more true "big game"with them than I predict anyone on this message board has with any load in any caliber.He's 76 and I know for a fact he has 18 Brown bear skulls on his mantle and a couple dozen cape buffalo (not every one was killed with his 600/458WM though most were. He also has an 8x68 Mauser that he used for many years when first moving to AK). 

[Cabin4]

 
And I didn't mention grizzly and browns because anyone whom has hunted buffalo and elephant knows that the bears don't have the bone structure or tenacity to life that those do.

GEMSBUCK,

I consider griz and brown a much more likely target for a hunter. These are extremely dangerous game who will die if shot by a 45/70. Who the heck would want to shoot a gigantic dumb elephant anyway?? Shooting an elephant is as challenging as shoting the side of a barn. Yes, hard to kill. But if this is the only measure of dangours game you have, then your meausrement is way off. Your putting to many caveats on your previous statements, now. The fact is not all African countries have this so call law on Cape or Elephant. Sum do , yes but as I said its to safe gaurd againts idiots who would try and hunt Cape or Elephant with a cowboy load from the 45/70. When properlly loaded, the 45/70 will kill and has killed both Cape & Elephant.

BTW: As you stated above, you don't need to have hunted cape or elephant to "Know" their bone structure is larger. Anyone with an once of sense can determine that. I'm responding to your statements thats its "Illegal" to hunt dangours game with the 45/70 or 450 marlin. The fact is your just dead-a wrong or intentianally misleading people here.

[nomosendero]

I use 450gr BTSX @2200fps in my 458WM...it is my father whom uses the 300s and he's killed more true "big game"with them than I predict anyone on this message board has with any load in any caliber.He's 76 and I know for a fact he has 18 Brown bear skulls on his mantle and a couple dozen cape buffalo (not every one was killed with his 600/458WM though most were. He also has an 8x68 Mauser that he used for many years when first moving to AK). 

450 BTSX makes good sense. About the 300 gr. soft point with compressed powder charge, I never said it would not kill, but it would not be my choice or the choice of most that shoots big animals, but alot of things can work if you know an animal's anatomy. I would think the 458WM would be great, but I would shoot your mentioned 450 gr or 500 gr, which can't be done in the 600, which was & is my whole point.

Concerning success, by the same token, I know 2 guys that have killed more Deer with a 223 than most on this forum, but that doesn't make a 223 the best choice or even a good one.

[GEMSBUCK]

 
And I didn't mention grizzly and browns because anyone whom has hunted buffalo and elephant knows that the bears don't have the bone structure or tenacity to life that those do.

GEMSBUCK,

I consider griz and brown a much more likely target for a hunter. These are extremely dangerous game who will die if shot by a 45/70. Who the heck would want to shoot a gigantic dumb elephant anyway?? Shooting an elephant is as challenging as shoting the side of a barn. Yes, hard to kill. But if this is the only measure of dangours game you have, then your meausrement is way off. Your putting to many caveats on your previous statements, now. The fact is not all African countries have this so call law on Cape or Elephant. Sum do , yes but as I said its to safe gaurd againts idiots who would try and hunt Cape or Elephant with a cowboy load from the 45/70. When properlly loaded, the 45/70 will kill and has killed both Cape & Elephant.

BTW: As you stated above, you don't need to have hunted cape or elephant to "Know" their bone structure is larger. Anyone with an once of sense can determine that. I'm responding to your statements thats its "Illegal" to hunt dangours game with the 45/70 or 450 marlin. The fact is your just dead-a wrong or intentianally misleading people here.

Well one thing is VERY apparent from this comment of yours...You've never hunted elephants...and BTW I've killed a few coastal and 2 inland grizzlies in my time...how many have you put in the salt?