Author Topic: When will Browning start making Winchesters? (Read 3717 times)

ba_50 · « **on:** April 01, 2007, 07:47:29 AM »

I am interested in a LH M70 featherweight. Anybody know what is going on?

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #1 on:** April 06, 2007, 05:31:04 AM »

Take a look at David Petzal's comments in a Field and Stream column relating to the 2007 SHOT Show. I don't remember the issue or weblink, but they are there if you search hard enough.

Also, when talking to Browning Customer service a few months ago, they alluded to M70's being made again one day. Didn't say when, but there was an allusion to it. Watch and wait for the legal liabilities to expire and straighten themselves out. In the meantime, take a look at the new Ruger M77 Hawkeye. Very nice, and very similar to the M70 Featherweight. Kind of a cross between the M77 and the Featherweight, except with a better trigger than the M77. I am trying to find an excuse to get one in a 7mm-08...

victorcharlie · « **Reply #2 on:** April 07, 2007, 04:20:44 AM »

We had the Browning rep in the store the other day. He said that at this time there was no plan for Browning to manufacture any of the products that Winchester manufactured in New Haven.

It doesn't sound good, especially if your holding out for a particular rifle.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** April 07, 2007, 04:42:11 AM »

If one likes to strive for technical accuracy the answer would be NEVER. Browning is not and really never has been a manufacturer. They merely contract with other companies to do manufacture goods and then the act as the distributor much like Sears, Roebuck. Browning branded guns are made in Japan by Miruko and in Belgium by FN.

Now it just so happens the parent company of FN, Browning and Winchester aka US Repeating Arms is the same company The Herstal Group. I'd not really look for anything that used to be under the Winchester label to come back any time soon. What you'll see under it is stuff made to sell under the Browning label also with the Winchester name on it for the most part. There were two more years on the Union contract at the old US plant and that has to pass before those guns could come back. But the reason it was shut down is they weren't selling to begin with. So why tool up in a new location to make guns they already know aren't selling well enough to support them?

banen · « **Reply #4 on:** April 07, 2007, 07:00:57 AM »

Greaybeard,
Excellent fact based post as always. I was under the impression from reading a few articles that it wasn't so much that they weren't selling but that the margins were not sufficient to support the cost of manufacturing and overhead (largely due to the high cost of union labor which you eluded to). My dad had bought one of the compacts in 308 and it is a sweet woods whitetail rifle, one of the prettiest pieces of wood on a standard factory rifle I have ever seen. Its a shooter to boot. I went from being skeptic of Winchester to thinking they were the best factory rifle around and wanting one. Unfortunately I came to that realization just after they stopped manufacturing and they jacked up the price and I wasn't able to find one in a 308. I know you aren't a big fan of them but I sure like his.

I would not be surprised to see an resurrection of the model 70 in a few years once the corporate type think they can get away with it with out fear of creating a law suite for breach of a union contract. By the way, I love the new spell check feature, Thanks!!

The Gamemaster · « **Reply #5 on:** April 07, 2007, 01:31:41 PM »

There are still new model 70 Winchester Rifles to be had.

They did not sell all that they had made before they closed the plant and I am sure that there is a warehouse out there that has them and is selling them one by one at inflated prices.

One other little note, Browning is still manufacturing the semi auto shotgun with the Winchester name on it. Browning branded guns are made in Japan by Miruko and in Belgium by FN.

I saw several Browning's / Winchesters, at a sale last month that had the same components on them and different names on the reciever.

So it is just a matter of time before they are back on the market again with a made in Japan or Made in Belgium stamp on them.

It's just another way to put a screwing to the American Worker for producing a good product at too high a price for Wal Mart to wholesale them to the public for $350 each!

Funny thing is the day after Winchester went out of buisness, Remington raised the price of their guns 25%!

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #6 on:** April 08, 2007, 01:39:35 PM »

Quote from: The Gamemaster on April 07, 2007, 01:31:41 PM

...

It's just another way to put a screwing to the American Worker for producing a good product at too high a price for Wal Mart to wholesale them to the public for $350 each!

Funny thing is the day after Winchester went out of buisness, Remington raised the price of their guns 25%!

I can just hear the discussions that were going on in the Winchester (USRAC) boardroom:

“We’re making money hand over fist on our rifles and our stockholders are receiving record dividends, but we’re just not screwing the American Workers enough. Therefore I motion we shut down our rifle manufacturing operations and terminate our cash cow. Our stockholders will understand and support our decision because, as it is for us, what is really important to them is not making a return on their investment but rather screwing the American Worker.

“All in favor, signify by saying “Aye”.

(A chorus of “Ayes”.)

“By unamimous vote, the motion carries.

“By the way, as the first step, everyone here is now superfluous and is therefore fired forthwith.”

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Yup, it had to be something like that.

jvs · « **Reply #7 on:** April 08, 2007, 01:43:09 PM »

Quote from: The Gamemaster on April 07, 2007, 01:31:41 PM

Funny thing is the day after Winchester went out of buisness, Remington raised the price of their guns 25%!

I guess you haven't heard the news that broke on April 5, 2007 at noon concerning Remington Arms.

Remington Arms has been sold to a Capital Management firm for $380 Million, which includes about $242 Million in debt.

If you know anything about Capital Management firms, you know this is not a good sign of the future if you are a Remington employee. And possibly if you are a regular customer.

Skunk · « **Reply #8 on:** April 08, 2007, 06:56:14 PM »

Coyote Hunter, that was a good one.

Skunk

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #9 on:** April 16, 2007, 02:55:33 PM »

I stand by my original comments. The M70 will return...maybe not U.S. made, but back. Let me ask this. If it does come back with better quality, would it be a negative that it wasn't made in the U.S.? Just a thought...

wtroger · « **Reply #10 on:** May 03, 2007, 08:26:56 AM »

I have got 2 m-70's in 300 wsm one was made in Japan the other made in Hartford the only difference I can tell is one has a target corwn the other a regular crown other than that they are identical so the guns where made where ever the parent company deemed. The name will probably be back, to much name recognition for them not to be, chances are they won't be made in the states. Interesting about Remington they just signed up Charles Daley (the old mark x yugo mausers company) to sell there line of firearms under the Remington banner. Better get the model 700 you want now I get the feeling they won't be there long.

The Sodbuster · « **Reply #11 on:** May 03, 2007, 01:42:22 PM »

I could be wrong, but I'd tend to suspect when one company (Herstal) owns several brands (FN, Browning, Winchester), they would look for ways to reduce production costs by reducing redundancy. So instead of maintaining different plants manufacturing different bolt action rifles, they'd consolidate operations and redesign so that each model used many of the same parts. What I'm saying is that Model 70's might come back, but they might look suspiciously similar to Herstal's other brands.

mudstud · « **Reply #12 on:** May 16, 2007, 09:29:30 AM »

wtroger,
I would LOVE to see pics of the markings on that Japanese Model 70 in 300 WSM, as I have never seen such a critter. Could you please post some pics to satisfy an old man! If not that, then how about a detailed description of markings on the left side of the receiver and the barrel. Thanks!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** May 16, 2007, 10:08:25 AM »

want to see the future of gun manf. in the USA look at the auto industry ! unions need to wake up and compete , it dosen't matter how much they get paid as long as they make enough to off set it , just make better and make more than your counter part over seas ! the auto industry went to robots cause they don't make costly mistakes when they don't get their way , or call in sick ! etc.

mudstud · « **Reply #14 on:** May 17, 2007, 01:28:35 PM »

I have heard from a reliable source that Browning/Winchester/FN has been taking bids from subcontractors for the manufacture of certain parts for the new Model 70, to be made in South Carolina. Guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out. There seems to be an unusual amount of secrecy about the whole thing. It is a fact that Browning has acquired the rights to manufacture Winchester brand firearms from Olin. When, or even what models are forthcoming, remains to be seen, but there has been a rumor flying around that there will be new Model 70's in time for CHRISTmas.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** May 17, 2007, 03:00:27 PM »

if ya want a m-70 try a ruger or cooper
i want a m-94 , a couple of um ! big bore too !

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** May 17, 2007, 05:33:23 PM »

People keep talking about what "Browning" is gonna do.

Browning is gonna do NOTHING. Browning is NOT a manufacturer. Browning as a company is merely a shell. The guns with that name on it are NOT made by Browning and never have been. Once upon a time it was an American company and imported guns mostly made in Belgium by FN and later from Japan.

These days the Browning name is owned by Herstal of Belgium who also owns FN and who has purchased the rights from Olin via the now defunct US Repeating Arms, Co. to use the Winchester name on long guns.

So Browning is NOT gonna make anything much less a Winchester rifle. Hell they don't even make Browning rifles.

tomzuki · « **Reply #17 on:** May 17, 2007, 06:07:54 PM »

We all should know that producing a product as a business is about the "Position" of that product in the market. Its been done hundreds of times, that one competitor may purchase another simply to shut them down and eliminate competition for their products.

It seems that Winchester (Olin) or whatever was half broke, upside-down in production costs, (Read that LABOR-Union), and not very prosperous on the few models that remained.

Why would the new owner, Browning, be inclined to try to produce or contract to produce redundant firearms?? Have you ever heard rumors that within the same company one product was canceled because it cut into the market of another?? (Think Remington and the Model 788 to the Model 700). It seems to me that most of the comments about the Model 70's & 94's returning are not thought out well. Browning has their A-Bolt and BLR that they must find buyers for already.

The firearms production business is already strained. With increased regulation from the Feds, pressure by unionized labor, and tight margins (Profit) things are gonna be tough for domestic producers. Going offshore certainly is not popular with our consumer demographic but to survive they must take a long look at the option. This is true for any other product that we consume except food production and maybe pharmaceuticals. Wall Street drives this growth by acquisition and forces companies to operate this way. Look at the Stock Market. Stock Holders insist on a profit from their investment, dividends, So check out your retirement account and feel grateful.

I know it doesn't make you feel better about loosing Winchester as an option for your collection but they were around a long time and we can still collect them in the future.

k3yston3 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 17, 2007, 08:20:07 PM »

Quote from: tomzuki on May 17, 2007, 06:07:54 PM

Why would the new owner, Browning, be inclined to try to produce or contract to produce redundant firearms?? Have you ever heard rumors that within the same company one product was canceled because it cut into the market of another?? (Think Remington and the Model 788 to the Model 700). It seems to me that most of the comments about the Model 70's & 94's returning are not thought out well. Browning has their A-Bolt and BLR that they must find buyers for already.

Browning doesn't own WInchester. The Herstal group owns both names, in addition to FN. Fn is currently using a 70 classic style action in at least one of their rifles and as such we know that it is still being produced. Herstal would be a foolish company to let the Model 70 pass into history

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #19 on:** May 18, 2007, 03:03:33 AM »

another way to look at it , is a good product will find a way to market , Strum Ruger and the single action is a good example !
Colt started back making them , not alot but some ! now everybody makes one ! If the Winchester guns are that good they will be back in some form ! ( can't wait for a 94 big bore )

maroontoad · « **Reply #20 on:** May 22, 2007, 02:35:13 PM »

I don't know why but new Model 70's are still freely available here in Australia at good prices.

lilabner · « **Reply #21 on:** May 22, 2007, 03:30:37 PM »

Looks to me like what we've got here is one of those which shell is the pea under games. Production costs were too high due to union contracts, so you kill the patient, then reincarnate him without costly labor contracts. Go south, down where Mercedes, Toyota etc. have opened up shop. Or, go overseas where workers make peanuts. Bet we'll see Winchesters again before too long. The folks I feel sorry for are the workers who have built Winchesters for generations and those poor souls who went out and bought what they thought were the last of the product and paid through the nose for it. The Winchester name is far too valuable for owners of the name to let it die. It is like Marilyn Monroe and Elvis Presley - an American icon.

hunt127588 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:42:06 AM »

Matt Williams (VP of Williams Firearms) has a pretty good idea of what's coming down the pike with Winchester. His company used to make the floorplates for some of their models back in the day and were used on factory rifles. He stated on another board that everyone will just have to wait and attend the 2008 SHOT Show to see what's coming down the road. He wouldn't state anything else...

Graybeard · « **Reply #23 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:15:19 AM »

Yup the Union Contract will end next year and I'm sure someone will be making guns under the Winchester name somewhere. What guns and where are the questions to be revealed. Toward the end I think that factory was making only Model 70s, Model 94s (rimfires had already stopped being produced) and the Model 1300 shotgun.

Of those I'd not expect to see the 1300 return. They might bring in an import from Turkey or China or some such place that remotely looks like it but won't be on the same design or patents. The Model 70 will likely return made in Japan by the same folks making the Browning rifles. Dunno about the Model 94, maybe. I don't think it was selling that well compared to the competition anyway and sold fewer each year. It might go the route of the other limited edition Browning invented Winchester brand named guns made in Japan in small quantities with what is made changing each year. That would be my guess on the three that were being made in that plant.

The rest of the line up under the name will likely mirror what is made in Japan now for Browning but with the Winchester name and a slightly different cosmetic look. It really had already boiled down to about that before.

charles p · « **Reply #24 on:** May 23, 2007, 02:56:14 PM »

Please enlighten me. What does the union contract in Hartford have to do with Winchester products being made overseas, SC, or anywhere else, with non-union labor.

I live in the south and don't understand these things. Does the union own the product name? Surely not!

Graybeard · « **Reply #25 on:** May 23, 2007, 04:29:17 PM »

The union contract signed with the owners of the factory and the company that holds the exclusive rights to use the Winchester name in the manufacture of guns had a provision that said that those particular guns made in that factory could NOT be made anywhere else in the world during the term of that contract.

In other words the union negoiated into the contract a clause to prevent US Repeating Arms (who bought use of the Winchester name from Olin) from letting anyone else but their members make those particular guns during the term of that contract. It is binding by law.

StrawHat · « **Reply #26 on:** May 23, 2007, 04:42:01 PM »

I vaguely recall a Chinese copy of the Winchester M70 being imported to here in the 80's (+/-).

Perhaps the same thing will happen.

As for the lever gun, maybe we will see an italian copy, they already do the Henry, 66, 73, 76, and 92.

The only one I am sure they don't produce is the 1895, the 1886 I am not sure but I think it is made only in Japan (currently).

Good guns have been copied, and improved, the world over. Maybe the same can happen for Winchester.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #27 on:** May 23, 2007, 04:57:30 PM »

I didn't read all the post here, but i was in Grand Rapids Mi. a few days ago and i saw several M-70's at the Gander Mountain store there... Includeing Ft weights and left hands...

DM

Graybeard · « **Reply #28 on:** May 23, 2007, 05:02:22 PM »

China doesn't really acknowledge US Patent rights and they do about whatever they want to do. BUT Herstal cannot afford to import them made in China while the Contract is still valid, the cost to them after the lawsuit would more than offset any profit by a huge margin. No they will wait whether the folks in China do or not.

The 1886 and 1895 among other old Browning patent Winchester branded guns have been made in Japan by Miroku in the past and will be again. They have made the 1892 there as well as several of the rimfires and the LW and HW 1885s. The contract has no impact on any of that only the three made in the old plant (models 70, 94 and 1300).

Uberti is owned by Beretta so while they will continue to make many of the older Browning patent guns I don't see Herstal having any involvement with those Italian made clones. The patents on them have long since expired and anyone can legally make them but cannot legally use the Winchester name in conjunction with them.

Graybeard · « **Reply #29 on:** May 23, 2007, 05:06:16 PM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on May 23, 2007, 04:57:30 PM

I didn't read all the post here, but i was in Grand Rapids Mi. a few days ago and i saw several M-70's at the Gander Mountain store there... Includeing Ft weights and left hands...

DM

There is no shortage of them out there still new in box in warehouses waiting on someone to buy them. That's really the reason the factory was closed, the guns were NOT selling. No body wanted them enough to buy them and so the factory was shut down. NEWS ITEM: Folks still aren't buying them. Those models are NOT in high demand by shooters in the US or anywhere else. They got left behind in the dust. I strongly suspect any future attempts to reserect them will meet with about the same level of success.