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Offline DalesCarpentry

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You knew it had to come up.
« on: March 08, 2007, 02:57:51 PM »
Well you new it had to come up. I have been reading the new CVA form and I think H&R NEF may have a real problem. I have been looking and reading about the new  Optima Elite. They don't have the barrel options the H&R have yet but if they shoot as well or better I think alot of people are going to lean that way. You can even get a 300 Win mag. and you don't have to send in your receiver and wait 8 to 10 weeks. The guns cost a little more but really not to much more. The barrels run in the neighborhood of $200.00 witch really is not all that far off from H&R after you take in to account for fitting charges and shipping. I will be watching this site to see what the range reports are like. I could see one in my future for sure. How do you feel about CVA and the  Optima Elite? ::) ::)
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: You new it had to come up.
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2007, 03:15:48 PM »
Actually the barrels are $150 to $175 depending on blued or SS.

Tim

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/218
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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: You new it had to come up.
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2007, 03:18:12 PM »
That even makes them more appealing.
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Offline McLernon

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Re: You new it had to come up.
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2007, 03:22:08 PM »
But they look funny :o

Mc ;D
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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: You new it had to come up.
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2007, 03:25:17 PM »
But you can get better looking stocks. Even thumbholes.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: You new it had to come up.
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2007, 03:27:54 PM »
Not all of em look funny, I'm ordering a thumbhole stock for mine. I'd like the lams, but it won't be available for a while. :-\

Tim

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_218/products_id/34898



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Offline luv2shoot

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2007, 04:07:14 PM »
NEF/HR may be in trouble if they don't stop turning out all the junk we have been reading about lately.  Sorry, I don't like wasting my money
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2007, 07:14:11 PM »

Nobody likes to waste their money...but...I've seen this before with the NEF's...and most folks that have been here from the breakup of the old site has too...It isn't NEF folks...It's the people who are pulling the purse strings closed...and making the decisions...The good folks at the NEF plant can only work with what they are given...and there is the real shame of it and where the blame should be directed is to the company that runs them >:(

The Elites are made right......The Handi's could be as well...but they would cost as much or more...since the Elites are being built on brand new state of the art computer controlled equipment...and to much higher tolerances

Mac
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2007, 02:46:39 AM »
There is only one $150 dollar barrel listed that I could see at that website, it is a 20 gauge shotgun barrel  for $149.63 and that price is plus shipping and handling. That is more than twice what I can get a new American made 20 gauge barrel with a great warranty and wonderful service for from H&R fitted to my receiver and shipped to me. It is three times what I could get the same barrel for here in the classifieds from GB's. I could fit it myself if it did not fit but it probably would fit one or more of my recievers, or if I wanted I could send it directly to H&R here in the USA and for $15 they would try to fit it to my reciever and only charge me if they were successful. Why spend 2 or 3 times the money and then send that money to a foreign company?

(I did not want to bring this up since some are bound and determined to push these ugly foergn guns but I will, I have read arguements of dangerous guns produced by CVA and also that they have no certified proof testing in place for their guns, even withut those concerns the cost factor seems to be 2 to 3 times the cost of a H&R Shotgun barrel and about twice the cost of a H&R rifle barrel depending if you buy new or used? Not at this time thanks, my H&Rs are fine, fun, American made, and (more) affordable....<><....  :)



Nothing against you for starting the thread Dale....<><.... ;)
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Offline MZ5

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2007, 02:58:58 AM »
I'm afraid those CVA guns have no appeal to me whatsoever.  They're vastly uglier than the NEFs (not that the NEFs are all beautiful...), considerably more expensive, and yes, it does matter to me whether things are American-made or not.  So, for 'just a little more money' I can have a hideous pile that I can add different barrels to for only 125-200% as much as to my NEF, and for that extra money I then get to double the expenditure to make it look acceptable, double the money for an extra barrel or two, and I help send more manufacturing jobs out of the country.  If I wanted to spend 'just a little more money,' I'd just buy a T/C.
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2007, 03:04:23 AM »
I agree, I have TC ML's and the quailty and CS has been great with them. Even though the company has been sold I would rather spend my money on a TC than a CVA, but thankfully I don't have to, I can stiil get the best dollar value out there, the H&R's. I can also discuss them with the best group of guys on a single forum I have ever met ot spoken to, these members at GB's. And they are not "eliteists" either, but rather great  regular guys who enjoy the shooting sports. Thanks to each and every one of you....<><... ;D
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Offline PartsMan

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2007, 03:24:18 AM »
I think they are ugly just like the encore :o. (that may get a responce)
Made in the USA is very important also.
H&R has offered more calibers and choices than any other buget gun I can think of.
We should be greatfull.
Most of the bad guns NEF has made are calibers rossi or cva haven't even tried.
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Offline ken2222

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2007, 03:31:13 AM »
Boy oh BOY....this is gonna get interesting  ;D.....I'm gonna save my $$$ for the big Handi SALE! OH BOY.......

Ken  8)
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2007, 03:42:13 AM »
Ken you REALLY know how to put things into perspective!!! Thanks!!! I'm all up for buying some lousy used Handis cheaply!!!....<><.... ;D

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Offline ken2222

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2007, 03:47:18 AM »
Why not Andy....WE could use a few more cheap ol Handis...couldn't we.... ;D ;D :o 8)  course you know Ebay'll get most of it..... ::)
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2007, 03:55:45 AM »
Ooooooh...I hope not, I can understand bailing out if your upset but I would hate to see people going over to "the dark side"....<><.... :(   
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2007, 05:11:20 AM »
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Offline ken2222

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2007, 05:21:08 AM »
couldn't help noticing the zeros in  "availability"....and such a short list...I'm sure that will improve tho...
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Offline eskimo36

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2007, 05:27:37 AM »
just my opinion, but they are ugly and the caliber choices are very limited. The H&R with a straight stock and the round forearm (i don't like the schnabel) is one of the classic American firearms.  The drop on the rear of the receiver on the CVA will always make it a bulky gun...no way around it. 
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2007, 05:37:06 AM »
Ken, my guess is RR does a lot of business, I've checked their BC inventory several times, it went from 15 to none in just a couple days recently!! The OE being new, it doesn't surprise me they don't have a big inventory of them, Sportsmans Warehouse here in town carries the Wolf, but not the OE, they can get one for me for a price, almost $450 after sale tax, for the same rifle Bud's and RR sells for about $300 shipped.

Caliber choices are very limited because it's new, given some time I'm sure you'll see some very desireable calibers.

My hopes are that the success of the Optima Elite will prompt Marlin to make the improvements in the H&R line that we've all voiced recently.  Lee Iacocca once said, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way", good advice for Marlin to heed, and TC for that matter, IMO.

Tim
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2007, 06:17:03 AM »
Quote from: ken2222 on March 09, 2007, 05:21:08 AM
couldn't help noticing the zeros in  "availability"....and such a short list...I'm sure that will improve tho...

Yup...it will...provided more dealers stock them...Mine is expanding their inventory on them when they become available next month or so..Seems a-lot of folks are interested..Not bad for only producing 13,000 last year.

Andy...it isn't the dark side...It is folks wanting something put together correctly at a fair price.Nothing dark and sinister there.. :D :D :D :D :D

eskimo36...While they may appear ugly to you...and never be able to have a "classic" shotgun designed stock...The ones they do have are designed to fit shooters better...which makes them more comfortable to shoot on and off the bench..which should allow a person to shoot better.I too was very predisposed against the stocks looks..and yes...I still like the classic lines of a fine shotgun and rifle..but I also understand they aren't trying to make them appear as one.While looks may play an important role for forming an opinion...fit...function..and accuracy should be paramount to your decision making process too...and this will require actually shooting one to see why they are changing folks minds about them ;)

Mac
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2007, 06:25:28 AM »
Mac's right on about the stock, it's not ugly to me anymore.....just homely!!! ;D But the fit and feel couldn't be better, fits just like a thumbhole without the top part of the hole. If you get past the cosmetic appearance, and try one out for fit and feel, you'll feel different about it as Mac, Digger, Lik2hunt and I did. Now if I can get mine to shoot good, I'll be real happy with it for the money, and that .300 Winmag barrel will get ordered!! ;)

Tim
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Offline ken2222

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2007, 06:31:26 AM »
Mac..
Andy and I were having a side conversation that probably had something to do with his "darkside" comment...I thought he was refering to Ebay...

I'll be watching the list of barrel options grow... ;D  That'll tell me if CVA is listening...Mark....are you listening?

I must admit...a 300 Win Mag might be a nice starter.... ;D ;D ;D ;D  after I pay for ALL my Handis..of course  ;)
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Offline eskimo36

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2007, 06:36:28 AM »
mac and tim,

I completely understand your points of view. I have had encores off and on for years and I just can't get accustomed to the feel or the look. My father in law has an OE ML.  I am a lefty so that makes me have slanted view of the world. The bias of the right handed stocks and thumbholes(although their thumbhole looks ambidextrious) has made me a grouchy.  The almost vertical grip would be good from the bench, i agree.
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Offline bajabill

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2007, 06:48:29 AM »
call me a stick in the mud if you will.  But I just dont like a pistol grip rifle.  And that includes both the thumbhole and topless versions.

Then, on the rifle stocks they do have, the put a cheekpiece into the stock profile so the leftys (me) have no need for those.

I will check back on them later and see if they bring more to the table with caliber offerings and stocks.  Right now, all they have is a 300 win mag, and Im trying to stay beltless.  So, I found this option about 10 minutes ago, and have saturated their appeal to me already.  Good luck to them and their customers though, I just hope the expand to include things I want.
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2007, 07:38:51 AM »
Quote from: eskimo36 on March 09, 2007, 06:36:28 AM
mac and tim,

I completely understand your points of view. I have had encores off and on for years and I just can't get accustomed to the feel or the look. My father in law has an OE ML.  I am a lefty so that makes me have slanted view of the world. The bias of the right handed stocks and thumbholes(although their thumbhole looks ambidextrious) has made me a grouchy.  The almost vertical grip would be good from the bench, i agree.

The thumb hole stocks are ambidextrous...and are much thinner in the grip area than most others...which is why I like them so much...They don't feel bulky to me in the least...There is no exaggerated palm swell to deal with as those you have to finish yourself for the Handi...and I hope that when the laminated version comes out...it doesn't have it either..This is one of the main reasons I like this thumb hole stock...because it is thin...Encores aren't thin...Having the cheek rest on both sides is nice for those wanting and needing it...and is a expedient way of producing a ambidextrous stock..It may seem like a waste to some..but from a business stand point having 1 stock design instead of 2 is a huge savings...In time I am quite sure there will be other options..





I've shot a-lot of rifles in my time...and have shot my fair share of true bench guns..These stocks are plain comfortable to shoot as compared to most others I have shot...with the exception of a true custom fitted stock that I have on a few rifles of mine...If you know how to set up your rifles in the bags correctly..these are easier than having to shoot a Handi off the hinge pin..especially if your allowing them to slide..which you should be allowing them to do...since this rifle recoils straight back..if not..your groups will suffer at the bench..

Go to where you can feel the differences between these stocks and the Encores...Once you pick up one and shoulder it...you will know right away what I am talking about...I am quite sure many won't like them..and that is understandable...but many have to remember there is more than 1 kind of fish in the sea and variety adds spice to life ;)

Mac
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2007, 08:05:56 AM »
Ken is correct. "the dark side" refered to E-bay, I did not mean to offend anyone by refering to anything else (?).
This CVA thing seems to be getting devisive here in the H&R foruum with peoples feelings being hurt. I don't like to see that here. There is a lot to be said about a classic looking rifle with a well designed receiver at the proper angle, not one that looks like a converted pistol. And what could be more classic than an American single shot rifle that is affordable to the masses, that my friends is America, and that is H&R/NEF. We all know why TC's are shaped like that, because the TC rifle plant burnt down and they converted thier pistols into rifles by adding bigger stocks and longer barrels the the more angled handgun receiver instead of rebuilding the rifle plant. The only reason for CVA's to look that way to me seems to be to copy the TC's and try to jump on their bandwagon for those who cannot afford TC's. I prefer the classic, balanced and truely American looks of the single shot Handi "Rifles".  Not much more to say and I don't think I can be much plainer than that....<><.... :) 
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2007, 08:15:28 AM »
Nothing wrong at all with that mindset, MSP! ;) But the CVA Optima Elite does bring a product to market that is a lot of the things that we all would all like to see in an H&R as far as accuracy, product quality control and barrel interchangability, for a price that isn't much more than an H&R, but for a heck of a lot less than a TC Encore.....and it's not a b.....bo....bolt gun!! :D

Tim
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Offline stimpylu32

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2007, 08:31:09 AM »
Well i might as well chime in here too , the other day while i was picking up my new H&R i had a chance to handle one of the CVAs , it was a ML but all in all not a bad gun , the fit and finish were on par with the TCs .

It did have a good balance to it , the pistol grip felt a little weird in kind of a cockeyed way , maybe that is why i got away from TCs years ago . I have to side with Andy on the fact that if i have a chance to buy american i do , and even with its little qurks it is still a love hate thing for the H&R/NEFs .

Had the CVAs been cheaper than the Handi , i would have still got the good old made in the USA handi , thats my story and i'm sticking to it !  ;D For you guys that like the CVAs , this is America and you can chose any gun you like , you have that choice .  :D

For the money , not a bad gun .

Rant done !!

stimpy
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: You knew it had to come up.
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2007, 08:37:38 AM »
I'd like to add this, and I've said it before on other forums here, I have no intention of selling/replacing my H&Rs, they're fine rifles for the money I've invested in them and I still love em, intend on buying a .444 Marlin Handi when they come available, and I've also bought 2 additional SB2 frames and a lam stock set since I bought the CVA. But I'm also open minded to a new and tantalizing product like the OE. ;) After I wring out the 7mm-08 barrel, it may be sold since I plan on the .300Winmag barrel for it, as I already have a good shooting 7mm-08 Handi!!

As far as US made products, even H&R has a bunch of their shotguns made in China. In this day and age of globalization, there isn't a household among us that doesn't have products made elsewhere, and that goes for everything we use, from the smallest, up to the vehicles we drive. Even what you think is US made may be assembled here, but look at the component origin of most major products, specially vehicles! :D

Tim
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