309 JDJ vs. 358 JDJ vs. 375 JDJ

[Minnesota1]

I just found this forum and I am happy to have found ya'll.  I've been looking to get a barrel for my contender for long range deer and elk.  I just recently came upon the JDJ line and am pretty impressed.  I can't find any real ballistic comparisons of the 309, 358, 365 JDJ cartridges.  I would love to see bullet drop and energy of the bullets at any distances. 

What would you guys recommend for mainly an elk type pistol but if a big deer comes out a little ways out I would love to be able to take it.  I've heard the 375 JDJ pistol may not have enough velocity to expand properly so I've been leaning towards the 358 JDJ round but I love the 30 caliber and the availability of so many good bullets so the 309 is an option as well.  Your experience and knowledge would be greatly appreciated and any web site links to ballistic info on these rounds would be nice.

Thanks,

Bob 

[swampthing]

Any one of them will work for you. Spitzer bullets will help you retain velocity to out past 250yds. Recoil will be exponentually stout as you go up the line. The hornady manual has trajectory tables for all thier bullets shot at most any velocity.
I would opt for the .358 or .375 as you can load hardcast bullets with "Big Meplats" for awesome prowess, a muzzlebrake will help tame it down but will make it even louder than it already is. My .309 was a tack driver, ballistics were basically same as .308win. It will kill anything that the .308win round could.   

[swampthing]

The hornady manuals also have data for the .309, .338, and the .375JDJs.

[spinafish]

I have had my eye on a .338 JDJ #2..I really don't what the #1 was, but the #2 is what I see listed now in the Cartridges of the World book..I would load it with the Hornady SST's..

[Ken ONeill]

Any of the 3 will work well. Think of the .309 as a .308 Win. and the .358JDJ as a .356 Win. or .358 Win., all at handgun velocities, of course.You might also consider my favorite, the .338JDJ No.2, which will have a bit less recoil than the .375JDJ, mostly because of the lighter bullet weight. I recommend a 200 Hornady Spire in the .338 No. 2. I like a 165 in the .309, a 200 in the .358, and a 270 in the .375.
No one can criticize the performance of the .375JDJ, but the recoil will be significantly greater than the others , particularly if you use the most popular Elk or Africa game bullet, the 270 Hornady spire.
Spinafish, the original .338JDJ was on the .303 British case. Pressure variations and performance were felt to be unreliable...definitely not a problem with these cartridges based on the .444 Marlin.

[SD Handgunner]

Check your PM.

Larry

[contender hunter]

For more of a elk load I would lean towards the 375 JDJ with a brake or magnaport  over the 309 ,the 375 is  a  awsome cartridge !!   And deadly on deer , I have a 12 1/2 '' SSK bbl. magnaport  , like already mentioned pretty stiff recoil with the 270 gr. Hornadays  , and very manageable with the 220 gr hornaday for deer  , I personally wouldn't want to shoot it much with 270 's without a brake of some kind . And don't forget the 375 JDJ is avail. now in a factory bbl. very resonable , the 309 has to come from ssk or get a 30-30 rechambered from ssk . SSK bbl. are top of the line though , and also figure in a 6 screw scope mount for the scope , so it won't come un-glued!!!

[SD Handgunner]

According to some Load Data I found on the net, I ran a couple Ballistic Charts for the 3 Cartridges you mentioned.

Let's start with the .309 JDJ as a Deer Cartridge. The fastest load I found listed pushes a 150gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip at 2462 FPS. The 150gr. .30 Caliber Nosler Ballistic Tip has a Ballistic Coefficient of .435.

When I put this into my Ballistics Program using 20 Degrees Temperature / 1060 Feet Altitude (about the normal conditions where I hunt Deer) I obtained the following info.

The retained velocity numbers go like this, 100 yds. = 2261 FPS, 200 yds. = 2069 FPS and 300 yds. = 1887 FPS. The retained energy numbers look like this, 100 yds. = 1703 FtLbs., 200 yds. = 1426 FtLbs. and 300 yds. = 1186 FtLbs. of Energy. In my opinion this is enough retained Velocity and Energy to cleanly harvest a Deer at 300 yards.

I also found load data for the .309 JDJ with a 180gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips. The Ballistic Coefficient for this bullet is listed as .507. The muzzle velocity for this bullet was listed as 2135 FPS. Again using 20 Degrees Temperature / 1060 Feet Altitude (about the normal conditions where I hunt Deer) I obtained the following info. When zeroed at 191 yards (provides for a midrange trajectory of 2.5") this bullet would strike 11.4" LOW at 300 yards.

The retained velocity numbers go like this, 100 yds. = 1993 FPS, and 200 yds. = 1856 FPS. The retained energy numbers look like this, 100 yds. = 1588 FtLbs., and 200 yds. = 1377 FtLbs. of Energy. In my opinion this is enough retained Velocity and Energy to cleanly harvest a Deer at 300 yards. When zeroed for a midrange trjectory of 2.5" this bullet would strike 2.3" HIGH at 100 yards and 2.5" LOW at 200 yards.

With the .358 JDJ I found a load for the 225gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip at a muzzle velocity of 2145 FPS. This bullet has a Ballistic Coefficient of .421. The retained velocity numbers go like this, 100 yds. = 1953 FPS, and 200 yds. = 1772 FPS. The retained energy numbers look like this, 100 yds. = 1906 FtLbs., and 200 yds. = 1569 FtLbs. of Energy. In my opinion this is enough retained Velocity and Energy to cleanly harvest a Deer at 300 yards. When zeroed for a midrange trjectory of 2.5" this bullet would strike 2.4" HIGH at 100 yards and 2.8" LOW at 200 yards.

In regards to the .375 JDJ I found data for the 270gr. Hornady Spire Point which lists a muzzle velocity of 2000 FPS. This bullet has a Ballistic Coefficient of .380. The retained velocity numbers go like this, 100 yds. = 1797 FPS, and 200 yds. = 1610 FPS. The retained energy numbers look like this, 100 yds. = 1936 FtLbs., and 200 yds. = 1554 FtLbs. of Energy. In my opinion this is enough retained Velocity and Energy to cleanly harvest a Deer at 300 yards. When zeroed for a midrange trjectory of 2.5" this bullet would strike 2.4" HIGH at 100 yards and 4.7" LOW at 200 yards.

Hopefully this puts things into perspective for you and does not confuse you.

I too have been pondering the same question(s). I mainly Hunt Whitetail Deer here near my home in Northeastern South Dakota. At times considering the area I hunt ranges can be long. I also hope to be able to Hunt Elk in South Dakota's Black Hills at some point in time also, and maybe a Black Bear Hunt with a good friend in Northern Minnesota. I have pondered this question many times. I think since the majority of the time I will be Hunting Whitetail Deer with the cartridge I choose I'd opt for the .309 JDJ.

Good luck with your quest.

Larry

[jhalcott]

 minnesota, I can tell you that the 358 is a handfull in the recoil department. Very acurate in my barrel. Using 200 grain round noses it will knock a deer sideways a step or 2. I've used  the .308 in a Lone eagle with great results, just don't get that terminal "SLAP" from the .308. I put a Vais brake on my .358JDJ ,and it really cuts down on the recoil.

[hoser1268]

If you like the 309 jdj you can load the 125 gr Nosler BT"s. Now that is a great long range deer round.

[palgeno]

The 338 JDJ is usually overlooked. Out of my nine SSK caliber barrels this one is definitely the "sleeper." Good trajectory with bullets having excellent sectional density. Kind of a "grown up" 6.5 JDJ.   Gene

[Minnesota1]

Tell me more about the 338 JDJ or is it the 338 #2?  Also, how would these cartridges do on an Elk?

Thanks,

Minnesota1

[MS Hitman]

I don't know how far "far" is for you.  Most of this is a preference thing, what do you want to shoot and what do you feel comfortable shooting.  There is no sense in getting a .375JDJ if you are sensitive to the recoil.  It has the accuracy to kill game at 200 plus yards provided you can drive it properly.  If you want to bag mostly deer and plan to take an occassional trip out for elk, the .309JDJ will do a good job if you choose the correct bullet for your intended game.

First off, let's throw the energy tables out the window where they belong.  Handgun loads do not kill by energy unless you are really overmatching your bullet/load to your game.  You need to match your bullet to the intended game. 

I have fifty-two whitetail deer under my belt with my .309JDJ barrel, so I've got a little bit of experience to speak from.  My main deer load is the 150 Nosler Ballistic Tip loaded to around 2350 fps.  Backing the velocity down a bit gives me tremendous penetration on deer, and those tremendous killing cacpability.  This also gives me a load I can zero at 210 yards and still be able to hit deer at 300 yards with no problem, because I know it hits 9" low at this distance.  This information was not gleaned from a table, I have shot this load at 300 yards to determine my drop.  Now, I have loaded the Speer 165 grain Grand Slams and the 165 Nosler Ballistic Tips for heavier game.  I took  several head of African game with the .309JDJ including a Red Hartebeest at a just over 300 yards.  Neither the animal nor I gave a rat's arse about retained energy at that distance.  What I was going for was the fact I was punching two holes in the guy and breaking shoulder sat the same time.  I also have developed loads for my barrel using the 180 grain Ballistic Tip, but these are too hard for deer and have left them for the .375 using 220 grain bullets on deer.  I have also found the 170 Remington .30-30 bullet loaded in the .309 to be very effective on whitetail and groundhogs as well.  If you are compelled to shoot 125 grain bullets at deer, best go to the 6.5JDJ.

I've taken fewer deer with the .375JDJ, but as stated earlier; it's very impressive with the 220 Hornady FP.  Deer just fold up like a paper napkin when I place one of these through or just behind the shoulders.  Most other bullets are too hard for thin-skinned animals.  I killed a large zebra stallion at 220 yards (slope distance) using a 300 grain FMJ.  He didn't care about the remaining energy, but he surely didn't like the entrance/exit holes I poked in him. 

I do not have any experience with the .358JDJ.  Bullet selection has never been as good in .35 caliber as it has been in the .30 caliber.  I have killed many deer with a .357 Herrett and it is very effective with the 150 grain Remington bullet, which is no longer made, as well as the Hornady 180 grain SSP. 

What the .45-70 Contender can do to deer is just down right ugly and not within the scope of this discussion.

[xphunter]

What are your distance goals for a long range elk?

[Minnesota1]

I would imagine a 300 yard shot at an Elk would be sufficiently long.  I'm a decent shot and I used to shoot a lot of IHMSA in my younger years.  I still am a competitive shooter in IDPA and 3 gun shoots.  I wish there was some IHMSA shooting in Dallas, TX area.  Back in the day I won the grand aggregate in IHMSA big bore for the Junior division-mainly with a contender but that was back in the late 80's.  So I think I could do a 300-350 yard shot with a scope and a rest, I just don't know if that is a humane shot with a handgun or if they have the killing power at that distance.  Hunting in Colorado provides opportunities to shoot game in close and far away.  I just want to be prepared for what ever happens and I would like to really know what the potential is of the weapon I am using.

Thanks,

Bob

[xphunter]

Every elk I have killed has been with a specialty handgun and I usually kill one every year.  I usually hunt for cows though, but between my daughter and I, we have killed several bulls (1 for her).
Her bull was shot with a 260 Rem in the 75-80 yd range (1-shot kill) w/120 NBT -yes it had a exit wound.  All of mine have been shot with either a 7mm or 30 cal.
I have used ballistic tips twice for my elk with success (140 NBT {7mm} & 150 NBT {30 cal}), but my MV's are quite a bit horsier than a Contender could stand. 
The impact velocity of the 30 cal 150 NBT was 2527 fps @ 300 yards and the impact velocity of the 140 7mm NBT was 2159 fps @ 1/4 mile.  the 150 had a nice exit wound while the 7mm 140 NBT killed the bull, but it did not exit.  Elevation on my elk are in the 8500 feet in late Oct-early Nov.
IMO-NBT's will work well if you can insure a double lung hit. 
You probably will not get an exit wound if the ranges are further for your rig, but they do a good job on the lungs.
Sounds like MSHitman has good data from experience.  I don't know enough about african game but a lot of them are elk class and tougher-so I have been told.
I have nailed 6-7 elk with 7mm 140 grainers (mostly 140 NP's), while the rest of been shot with the 30 cal (1 w/ 150 NBT) 180 grain SGK.  This years elk was with a custom bullet, so it doesn't count.

I'm guessing a 309 JDJ w/a 165 NBT @ 2200 fps (elk elevation-CO) your impact velocity @ 300 yards is 1840 fps.
The slowest impact velocity I have had on a elk (happened to be a bull) was 1950 fps w/a 7mm 140 NP.
Bullet was found on the far side just under the hide.
For the caliber/weight/speed of the bullet it was the distance limit for me personally and I stepped up to a larger capacity.
I have taken the majority of my elk with a 284 Win XP and 7.82 Patriot XP.

If it was those three cartridges you have listed I would go with the 309JDJ, but I prefer 7mm even more.

[MSwickard]

All the JDJ carts listed are good ones.  The one you left out is the 338 JDJ #2.  Personnally, I have owned the 309 and the 338 #2.  The 309 is a great deer and will kill elk.  I mainly used 180 gr Nosler Partitians @2200 fps.  Shot a cow elk with it and was very impressed with the results.  I no longer have the 309 ...upgraded to the 338#2.  This one is as good as the 375 JDJ.  shoots a little flatter and has a little more range.  Bullets in the 180-250 range.  I mainly like the Hornady 200 and the Nosler Part 250 or Speer GS 250.

Bottomline, the 375 JDJ is the do everything cart.  The 309 JDJ will do deer and elk but is on the light side for elk.  The 338 JDJ #2 can do everything the 375 can do for Deer and elk and shoot a little farther.

My pick would be the 338 or the 375.

[buffalohunter]

You can't beat the 375 JDJ as an elk cartridge, it has worked well for me with the 270 Hornady bullet. If you do not like a lot of recoil you can't beat the .338 JDJ#2. My barrels are encore barrels so I don't think recoil is bad with either caliber, this is just my 2 cents worth.

Good Shootin

[Minnesota1]

Thanks for all the info guys.  I think I've narrowed the selection to either the 338 #2 JDJ or the 358 JDJ.   I would definately get a muzzle break on it.  For Elk/Deer I would want to be able, if a clean shot presented itself and I had a good rest, to kill one of these animals at 300-350 yards.  Is this possible?  Would one of these calibers be any better than the other? 

Thanks for your continued input and experiences.  It is really helping me out.

Bob