Occasional flyers, what causes that?

[His lordship.]

I have had 3 scoped rifles that would have a flyer in a group of five shots.  A Marlin .22 RF bolt action, A Remington 700 in .243, and a CZ 550 in 30-06.

I had thought that it was me in a psychological area, flinching, etc.  That makes sense concerning the 30-06 with a 168 grain bullet.  But not with the Marlin or the Remington.

One of the recent issues of the American Rifleman had an article on a Gammo pellet rifle that did that too, a consistant flyer.  The writer of the article and his fellow testers could not understand it.  My rifle's action screws are tight, the scope is tight, etc.  My other scoped rifles do not have flyer problems, they shoot right on all the time. 

Has anyone else seen a pattern of consistant or frequent flyer problem, and if so, how did they fix it?

Thanks.

[jvs]

Bench Rest Shooters consistently weigh each bullet before reloading, they weigh grains of powder out of the same Lot- EXACTLY, they know how deep the firing pin dents the primer, their trigger may be electric, so each trigger pull is exactly the same at somewhere around 1 or 2 ounces.  Their Barrels are free floated and mostly custom made, their Scopes are big and expensive.   And they compete so not one bullet out of 5 measures more than 1/4 inch out of round in the same hole at 100 yds. 

Any deviation from one spec may throw a shot off a little.  In your case, it may be a heavy trigger, barrel rub on the forearm, maybe just heat generated when firing, or the difference in Harmonics (Metal and Wood vibrate at different frequencies).

Unless you want to control all factors, flyers can not be completely avoided.  Only to what degree.

[His lordship.]

JVS...I think you may have the key to the problem.  My Remington and my CZ use handloads, which is done by me in a non-specific way with a Lee loader.  I never got that detailed with handloading as it was done to keep costs down instead of fine accuracy.

My other guns that don't have flyers use only factory loads.  So, I shouldn't have sold off the Remington as it was an older ADL mode lwith fancy wood and a jeweled bolt, the way they used to make em'.

Thanks for the info.

[jvs]

If I were you, I would get my triggers down to a 2½ to 3 pound trigger pull, which is basically a 'hunting trigger'.  Then I would make sure that your barrel is NOT rubbing anywhere in the channel.

Doing both of those decrease the frequency of flyers.

Loose or over-thightened lug screws may throw your shots off.  All screws have a Inch-Pound Torque setting.  This affects your Harmonics.  You can test this at the range by either very slightly loosening or tightening those screws between shots.  How much those screws pull down on the Receiver, or up on the stock, certainly affects accuracy.

Weighing each bullet is not as important to the hunting reloader as making sure you have the exact amount of powder each time.  Bullets are held to pretty tight weight tolerances at the bullet makers.  If you are using those Lee Cups instead of a scale when you reload, it might be time to get a scale.  If you are trying for tighter groups, weighing each powder charge is preferable to using those cups.  I personally don't have a problem using those cups for plinking rounds.

[Slamfire]

I had a Remington 788 in 6mm that always threw the 3rd shot of a string about a half an inch higher and to the left of the other two, which usually touched each other. Best I could figure the barrel must have had a kink, that was straightend out at the factory, and tried to go back to it's original shape when warmed up. I don't think that happens to every straightened barrel, or it'd be a lot more common that it is. 

[flintlock]

These things will drive you crazy....Have you tried several differet types of ammo??? Do you always let the barrel cool....I'll mention 3 different instances I have had....

1) Remington 541-T...Topped with a Leupold 3x9x40 VX-II Compact...Trigger set at 2 1/2 pounds...Scope factory parallex adjusted for 75 yards....This gun would shoot 7-8 shots into a nickle sized group at 50 yards...2-3 shots would be out of the group by 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch....I took a 12 gauge fired shotgun shell and cut a 3/4 inch section out of it...cut it again in half to make a half moon shim...Installed between the barrel and stock...Now the gun consistantly groups inside a dime at 50 yards...

2) Ruger M-77 in  .243...Leopold 3x9x40.. Trigger set at 2 1/2 pounds...I bought new in 1980....With a 3 shot group it would throw the 3rd shot one inch high at 100 yards....With 2 shots and letting the barrel cool for 10 minutes, the 3rd hit with the other 2 shots...I had the barrel free floated, action glass bedded...No change...Replaced the barrel with a Shilen...Fixed problem...

3) Same Ruger....10-12 years later...I used Federal Premium 85gr BTHP for several years...Last year it started throwing one shot out of 5 out of the group...by 1 1/2 to 2 inches..The strange thing, it might be the 1st shot fired, or the 5th, I couldn't find a pattern...I even tried several different lot numbers....I switched to 100 grain CoreLokts...Fixed problem...

These guns sometime have a mind of their own...

[wncchester]

"Flyers" is a relitive term; how far are your flyers flying?   I mean, is the erratic flyer moving a fraction of an inch or several inches?  Any one of us who learns the actual reason for flyers stands to get rich!

Small deviations are - usually - ammo or wind or shooter related. 

Large deviations are usually scope or bedding or shooter related.

That's not much help but it's about as much as anyone can tell you here.

[charles p]

As a hunter, I would be tickled pink to put the first two bullets dead on.  Should never need the third.  Having said that, I once fired seven times at a whitetail before dropping him.  I see no problems with your accuracy.  Wish all my rifles would shoot the first two on top of each other.

[His lordship.]

The problem is the first shot with my CZ 550 in 30-06, it goes about 2" high, the other 4 rounds have nice, right to point of aim groups at 100 yards.  Always seems to do this.  I figure that as far as hunting at distances of 100 yards or less, the first shot will go a little high, and the rest, right on.  At the outer range distances, there would be sizable bullet drop anyways.  It has the flyer whether the barrel is cold, or has 10 rounds put through it in fairly rapid order. 

Part of the reason I bought this gun was to use it on varmints like wood chucks and coyotes.  I felt that with the overkill compared to a .223, they would be put out of their misery more profoundly.

I sold my Remington and the Marlin mainly because of the flyers.  This CZ-550 is a limited production of the premium model that is no longer made, and it has a double set trigger.  I also adjusted the main trigger down to 3 lbs.  It also has the great CZ workmanship.  My other choices are the Remington and the Ruger in a domestic.  If I buy those, it is a given that they will most likely need a custom barrel, trigger and bedding work.  That will get cost prohibitive for a rifle that I would already be spending $500.00-$600.00 just to take it home without modifications.  So I want to see what I can do with the CZ.

Thanks for the input so far, it has been helpful.

[wncchester]

OK, so it is a consistant flyer, not erratic; that changes things. 

Your description indicates that you have a barrel temperture problem in that the tube shifts from heat after the first round.  Let the barrel cool longer - much longer - between shots and see what that does for your groups.

If cooling helps, check your barrel bedding.  If the barrel is "free floating", make sure it is really free, especially under the chamber area.  A dollar bill/sheet of paper is not enough clearance, use the cover of a match book at least.  Most such bedding problems cause bullets to walk UP during the course of fire, but strange things do happen.

If cooling helps and the barrel is free from stock interference, you probably have a barrel with internal stresses that can't be easily fixed. 

[flintlock]

How many different types of ammo have you tried??? Sometimes this is the easiest fix....I would try at least 4-5 types or brands of ammo...

If the ammo doesn't change things then I believe it is a bedding problem...Before free floating the barrel I would try changing the pressure point between the barrel and stock...

[jvs]

charles p  is right, sometimes we get carried away with accuracy. 

One time I met an old guy ath the range before the start of deer season.  He got his Winchester Model 94 out of the trunk, plopped it down on the bench and proceeded to fire three shots.  He didn't have a scope and he just used a piece of paper with a 4 inch circle drawn on it.  He had all three shots in the circle and put his rifle back in the trunk.

He told me he never owned a scope in his life.  He learned to shoot on a farm and the Army did the rest with peep sights in WWII.

He claims that if you can hit the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket at 100 yds, you have nothing to worry about.

Lots of things can be blamed for opening a group, but it usually only takes a few minor adjustments to close it back up again.  That being said, I agree with the old guy.  If you can consistently hit the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket at 100 yds, you really dont have much of a problem.

[flintlock]

I would not be happy with that...Not even with my flintlock and open sights....

[Brithunter]

Hmmm,

    I see the old saw about "floated barrels" has reared it's ugly head again  .

   

    Sorry but as I see it a free floated barrel is just a cheap sortcut in production to avoid using properly cured wood in wooden stocks, and I don't mean that Kiln dried rubbish  and when using a synthetic "often flexy" stock it all comes down to poor bedding.

    Oh how come plastic stocks cost so much when they cost pennies to make? 

 
    Now to really test for fliers and if that is really what they are you need to do a little longer term test. The first time out you use two targets lined up exactly and placed on on top of the other and shoot a five round group. Carefully remove the targets and keep the top one as master and mark the lower one with date time etc and file it away. next time at the range do the same but with the master underneath the new target and do this at least five times always using the master underneath a new target. After you have shot at it least five times each time using 5 shoot groups you will be abale to see the real grouping of that rifle and the shots you have previously called fliers you might be surprised to find that they actually for part of a bigger group. Of course doing this over  period of several weeks and shooting at different times of the day and shooting 10 groups is even better.

[Mikey]

Chris D:  Try a couple of different approaches before yougo nuts with this, if it hasn't already driven ya nutz.....  One thing I notice about my own shooting is that when I am shooting for groups with a hunting rifle from the bench, if I do not hold the rifle firm as I would when taking a hunting hold, I will get one shot out and the other two will group together because I have taken a different hold.  I found that if I don't make the mistake of taking a wimpy hold on the rifle - that is, just sort of letting the forearm rest on the sandbag without taking a hold on the forearm, the shot will hit high by an inch or so.  When I grip the rifle properly the group decreases to a 3 shot one hole group.

In addition, you said you use your handloads for a couple of those rifles.  If you are concerned that your handloads may not be consistent then go buy a box of good factory loads and try them.  If that corrects the problem then you know you need more consistency in your handloading process.  HTH.  Mikey.

[victorcharlie]

I suggest you make sure your COL is the same.......and play with your bullet seating depth.....

[jro45]

I would say that if it does it every time you shoot, even with different bullets and different loads, that its your barrel.

[Argonaut]

Ya know, the bottom of the bucket thing is appropriate if you are talking about standing/offhand shooting.  Something that I see almost no one doing when the practice at the range, except for the muzzle loader guys. (flintlocks rule).  A gun that groups the size of a bucket, can't be expected to hit said bucket at 100 yards more than half the time.  I have a Ruger 77  30/06 made in the 70's and it has the worst barrel I have ever seen, actuall chatter marks in the groves, feels like a stick along a picket fence. but it shoots 1.5 at 100 which is bottom of the bucket all the way to 300 yards.  I only use it for elk hunting.  Outside of tiny varmits, the size of most hunting targets makes flyers unimportant. But if you must obsess about it. have at, its fun. I glass bed, free float my  bolt guns and it helps but I live in the pacific northwest and it gets damp, so I also makes sure that I seal all wood surfaces, especially under the recoil pad, screw holes etc.   On the other hand I don't do that to my lever guns and off hand at 100 yards I can ring 10 inche gong near everytime with it.  So obsess a little but practice your field shooting positions alot, That should serve you better. but hey it's just my poorly spelled two cents worth.

[Handgunner41]

Are you going to the range with a clean barrel? The first shot being the "fouler". My deer rifle shoots 1 inch high at 100 yards the first shot but once the barrel has been fouled it shoots dead on untill it gets hot then shots start stringing high.

[jro45]

I would say that it has to be either the BULLETS, POWDER, or the PRIMER. I would change one at a time then try it with about six shots and see if it does the flier. If it does then eliminate what you changed and try the next the same way.

[jvs]

Knowing how your rifle performs from the bench only tells you one thing:  How your rifles shoots when you are under very controlled conditions.

It does nothing for you when you are out in the field or in the woods, except if you miss, it tells you it was your fault.

While I also think it is important to hold a good group, it would do you much better to know how you shoot when your heart is pumping so hard that you can hear it beating in your ear and you have something live to shoot at. 

If you really want to see how your rifle will perform under actual conditions, run around your car 10 times, go to the bench, pick up your rifle and shoot three shots at the target while standing up, go retreive your target and hold it up to your chest.

Then ask yourself....

would I want to be hit by any of these rounds.

Every now and then I take people to the range who have little or no experience.  After the session, they seem a little down-hearted that they have so many holes in the target, with no consistency.  I tell them...

"Hold that target up to your chest and tell me which one of those would not put a real hurting on you."

They suddenly see that they did not shoot all that bad, for a beginner.

So, unless somebody here can tell me they take a bench out with them in the field, comparing bench results and actual hunting conditions could be considered a waste of ammo.





 

[beemanbeme]

If it is consistantly the first shot, one assumes it is from a cold barrel.  Is it the first shot from a fouled barrel or a clean barrel??  It is not uncommon for a rifle to throw the first shot from a clean barrel off.  Less so the first shot from a cold barrel.  What happens with a 10 shot group? Is the first one a flyer and the remaining 9 in a group?  What is the size of the group including the flyer??