Author Topic: 45-70 vs Ruger #1 Loads (Read 2041 times)

fknipfer · « **on:** January 27, 2007, 07:52:56 AM »

Just bought a Buffalo Classic off of Auction Arms and it looks fairly new. Never had one and wondered (even though I will never load that hot, too much punishment) what or how heavy a load will the Buffalo Classic shoot vs the Ruger#1. I know it will handle the levergun loads, but just in case I need to stop a train or semi-truck some day how heavy can you load it. Probably will only shoot cowboy loads in it.

Just trying to increase my knowledge.

fknipfer

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 27, 2007, 08:11:45 AM »

H&R will tell you to use levergun loads, but the Handi with the same SB2 frame is offered in .500S&W with a SAAMI MAP of well over 50kpsi which is well within the Ruger pressure level in a .45-70. Without weight or an MRR and recoil pad and/or recoil shoulder pad, the BC's steel butt plate isn't user friendly at anything above mid levergun loads. Also, load levels vary by source which causes a lot of confusion, just compare Lyman's, Hodgdons and Speer's pressure levels and you'll see what I mean.

Tim

fknipfer · « **Reply #2 on:** January 27, 2007, 08:27:04 AM »

quickdtoo,

I thought it might and if I got to Africa (fat chance) or Alaska (I've been there twice) I could load it up and use it for moose or bear. Down here in the states I think I would just use Hornady Leverevelution rounds. They shoot very well in my 1895 Marlin 45-70 and I don't know what that wouldn't handle in the lower states. Most of my reloading will be done for cowboy shooting (lighter loads) with my buddy. Will put a Marble tang sight on it and have a ball. I still hunt but not for deer anymore, I am going for black bear in May in Manitoba and maybe next year I can convince the woman we will go back to Alaska for Moose.

Have a nice weekend,

fknipfer

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** January 27, 2007, 09:39:58 AM »

I think any 45-70 load level with good bullets would work fine for moose at 45-70 ranges, they aren't particularly hard to kill with proper shot placement, look at all the bison killed with trapdoor loads, not that I've shot one, mind you, but Fred took his last year with his .257 Roberts Ultra, the State of Alaska's min recommendation is a 150gr bullet at 2500fps, even the 30-30 almost meets that. What I'd be more concerned about is big bears and being armed with a single shot, although Sourdough hunts with his single shots regularly and he lives there!!

Tim

http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/index.cfm?adfg=hunting.moose

kennyd · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2007, 10:05:02 AM »

Just looking at the two, a Ruger is way stronger in design and probably somewhat in material. The pressure/recoil/thrust thing confuses me somewhat. I know that my .45-70 with mid range lever loads really wallops me. A lot of little cartridges are high pressure. As far as recoil, I have shot exactly one 3 1/2" 12 ga. heavy load in my second barrel out of curiosity--bruised my shoulder, whacked my fingers with the trigger guard. If I decide to go with that I will find a way to get a recoil device in the stock. A premium bullet will probably do more than extra velocity for any serious DG kind of stuff.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2007, 10:15:09 AM »

Kenny, the question doesn't concern the Ruger firearm, just the load level, there's no question about the strength of the H&R vs the Ruger, but the H&R will handle the load level, but more to the point, will the shooter?

A big issue with the H&R is their short thoat, most bullets 350gr and heavier, unless they're bore riders, will have to be loaded shorter than recommended COL, it's been one of the constant complaints about the .45-70 H&R/NEFs, but nothing that a throating reamer won't cure!

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,100524.0.html

Tim

kennyd · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2007, 01:29:34 PM »

I load 405 gr. Remington bullets and 420 cast. I will now have to look to see if I am getting into the grooves. Thanks. My point about the Ruger was that it will handle things like .416, 375 H&H, .458 Lott, real nast cartridges that probably would take a NEF apart, but I may be underestimating the strength of them. I know I have an older Rossi 12 ga. double with the Greener crossbolt, one of the better ideas I have ran across.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** January 27, 2007, 01:49:31 PM »

Well, I doubt they would cause catastrophic damage, H&R proofs them at pressures well over those cartridges, but the underlug is a sacrificial component, the case head thrust of those DG calibers would cause the barrel to be loose in not too many shots just as Handi35's .300WSM did, but his SB2 frame was just fine.

To give you an idea of their strength, one member while at the range had a friend fire a 7.62x39 round in his new .243 Handi, bullet went down range, but the pressure jammed the barrel in the frame so it couldn't be broke open, he sent it to H&R, they replaced the barrel at his cost, frame was undamaged, much to his satisfaction and surprise!!

Tim

PlacitasSlim · « **Reply #8 on:** January 27, 2007, 02:05:25 PM »

I loaded up some hot load for my BC with 405gr Lasecasts and not only did it kill on both ends, but the velocity 1800fps was such that the rifling could not hold the bullet and my groups were like 3ft at 100yds. Finally ended up breakng down about 45 cartridges so I could reload lighter.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** January 27, 2007, 02:25:11 PM »

Slug your bore Slim, and use the right size bullets, it's not the rifle's fault, you're using undersize cast bullets.

I shoot 525gr and 555gr bullets at 1700-1800fps with no problems, but they fit my bore, bore fit makes a BIG difference with cast bullets.

Tim

AZ223 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 27, 2007, 02:34:51 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on January 27, 2007, 10:15:09 AM

Kenny, the question doesn't concern the Ruger firearm, just the load level, there's no question about the strength of the H&R vs the Ruger, but the H&R will handle the load level, but more to the point, will the shooter?

A big issue with the H&R is their short thoat, most bullets 350gr and heavier, unless they're bore riders, will have to be loaded shorter than recommended COL, it's been one of the constant complaints about the .45-70 H&R/NEFs, but nothing that a throating reamer won't cure!

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,100524.0.html

Tim

Quick - I just got a 45-70 and picked up a box of the Reminton 405gr loads. The box says "For all rifles" which I assume refers to pressure, but do you think these will wind up too long for my bore?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** January 27, 2007, 02:42:53 PM »

The 405gr Rem ammo will work fine, the "for all rifles" mean it's loaded at trapdoor levels so it's safe in even them. They're loaded short enough you shouldn't have any trouble, that's why I said "most" 350gr and bigger, some work fine, the 350gr PMC that's no longer made does also. But if you load to spec COL from loading data, you'll find many are too long and you'll need to shorten the COL or have the chamber throated or do it yourself as I did.

Tim

AZ223 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 27, 2007, 05:14:10 PM »

Thanks Quick; I'll probably have a local gunsmith do it. I want to try the 525gr eventually...

James B · « **Reply #13 on:** January 27, 2007, 06:41:00 PM »

My buffalo classic handles the 500 grain Government cast bullets and shot them well. However I was using Black Powder.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** January 27, 2007, 06:43:20 PM »

Quote from: AZ223 on January 27, 2007, 05:14:10 PM

Thanks Quick; I'll probably have a local gunsmith do it. I want to try the 525gr eventually...

Here ya go!!!

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

AZ223 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 28, 2007, 06:09:42 AM »

I've noticed most sites don't list load levels for the NEF specifically; the only one that does with heavy loads is Garrett Cartridges http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp and those do look heavy!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** January 28, 2007, 06:36:33 AM »

I think the main reason those loads won't work in the NEF is the short throat in them, without throating, they won't accept big bullets.

Even the BTB 525gr Piledriver at 1800fps has almost 300fps velocity over the Garrett loads, but is rated at 40kpsi, well within NEF pressure levels.

Tim

Grizz_ · « **Reply #17 on:** January 28, 2007, 09:04:29 AM »

Tim,

The BC shoots the BTB 525g crimped in the cannelure. Not understanding your statement about the big bullets. Are you referring to the seated-out bore riders?

Grizz

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** January 28, 2007, 09:30:03 AM »

Yup, even loading to COL spec in most loading data, a normal throated Handi or BC .45-70 can't be done, the throats are too short, if you can load a Hornday 350gr FP, Speer 400gr, Rem 405gr crimped in the cannelure, your BC is the rare exception. Bore rider bullets are different since the forward portion of the bullet is smaller so it can be seated longer.

The Hornady RN can be loaded to 2.55", but not the FP and a host of other 350gr and larger bullets.

Tim

fknipfer · « **Reply #19 on:** January 29, 2007, 04:55:46 AM »

quickdtoo,

How deep a dimension did you use when you throated your 45-70. It sounds like that needs to be done to make the rifle more all around. There aren't a whole lot of gunsmiths around Wichita, Ks. I may have to do it myself or send it off. I haven't measured it yet so I don't know what the factory dimension is. I know you can rent reamers to do it, but I may not be enough of a machinist to do it.

fknipfer

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** January 29, 2007, 05:56:04 AM »

Reaming isn't hard, just go slow, check the depth often and use lots of cutting oil, many here have rechambered by hand, so doing the throating is easy, there's just no stop to prevent going too deep, depth is explained in the link I posted in the FAQs and earlier in this thread.

Tim