Author Topic: How far can I kill a deer with What ever? (Read 1239 times)

Catfish · « **on:** January 24, 2007, 08:39:58 AM »

I keep seeing post asking how far someone will be able to take a deer with this or that gun and round. There is only one answer and that`s as far as you can hit it. The difference in individuals ability to shot veries so much there is no way to tell. I have scpoed handguns that are zeroed at 150 yrds. and good to 200 yrds. with no problem. I have my drop chart and carryy a lazer range finder so I know exactly where to hold in elevation and can come close on wind drift. If you want to know how far you can kill a deer don`t ask us, get out some 8 in. paper plates and see how far away you can still hit them.

Boy I fell better after get that off my mind. Hope I didn`t tick off anyone.

longwinters · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2007, 11:51:15 AM »

I think what people mean is "what is the effective range" of the gun and caliber. Course seeing as how many pistols are capable of better accuracy than the person pulling the trigger your thoughts are like mine. But hey, it is always an interesting question.

Long

xphunter · « **Reply #2 on:** January 24, 2007, 04:27:26 PM »

catfish,
Didn't make me mad. I suspect lw is on the mark.
Even with the same hunter and rig the distance will be different becasue of all the variable that can come into play when hunting.
Still it is enjoyable to talk about it.

blhof · « **Reply #3 on:** January 25, 2007, 08:29:54 AM »

How far is definitely about the hunter and practice and sometimes dumb luck. Went deer hunting in South Dakota a few years ago; deer everywhere, but where I was hunting with a 357 max. I switched to a 7mm rifle for the last day, the only deer I saw at sunrise was a looong way off. No wind and a scope sighted in at 100yd. A quartering away shot with buck looking back at me. Placed the horizontal on the ear tops moved vertical to shoulder. I saw only a lump in the field after the shot. Counted off 405 steps to the deer. If it hadn't been the last day, I would never have attempted the shot. I now practice at 200 Yds and when possible target out to 300 yds, with rifle. I stay within 150 yds with pistol, and usually sight for 50 or 100 depending on caliber.

Who Me? · « **Reply #4 on:** January 25, 2007, 09:15:47 AM »

I don't believe we have answered the question of "How far can I kill a deer with What ever?" I think the answer is a certain amount of ft.-lbs. of energy is required to kill the deer provided it is hit in a vital zone such as the heart-lung area. So far the answers seem to be "how for away can I hit a deer.

Chuck White · « **Reply #5 on:** January 25, 2007, 10:43:07 AM »

How far can I kill a deer with What ever?

I believe the correct and final answer is: As far away as you can still punch the vitals!

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #6 on:** January 25, 2007, 12:13:17 PM »

There are a lot of factors involved in answering that question. The part about being able to hit the deer has been covered. Shooting at longer ranges takes lots and lots and lots of practice and ammo expended.

I don't put a whole lot of stock in FtLbs of Energy required to kill an animal. The majority of that energy is not expended inside of the animal, unless of course the bullets fails to exit the deer. I have been shooting Whitetails with Speciality Pistols since 1982. In all those years I have killed a lot of deer at which range my impact energy had fallen to below the so called magical number of 1000 FtLbs of Energy (what most authorities consider minimum impact energy to kill a Deer).

I am rather of the school of thought that says you need adequate velocity to initiate expansion to humanely kill a Deer. Bullet Expansion is what creates hydrostatic shok and tissue disruption. This shok and tissue disruption is what kills the animal. I have never had a bullet from a rifle type cartridge fired from a Speciality Pistol fail to completely penetrate a Deer from a lot of different angles. On the other hand before the advent of the Nosler Ballistic Tip and the no discontinued Single Shot Pistol Bullets I had a lot of bullets that failed to expand, but rather completely penetrated the Deer leaving an entrance hole and an exit hole that were the same size (one caliber in diameter).

Most of the bullets I have used over the years that I have had good results with needed roughly 1800 FPS impact velocity to create the needed bullet expansion. Some designs require 2000 FPS to provide enough velocity to initiate proper expansion.

With all that said as far as I am concerned, the shooters ability aside I feel that at which point the impact velocity drops off to 1800 FPS should be consider your maximum range.

Larry

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 25, 2007, 01:28:51 PM »

I hate to see the 8 inch paper plate used as a standard. 8 inches can also be a miss if your aim was to low. If you can't consistently hit a 5 inch group, you are past your limit. JMHO

MS Hitman · « **Reply #8 on:** January 25, 2007, 02:34:03 PM »

I've killed deer and a Red Hartebeest at the three hundred yard mark with my .309JDJ. So I know my range is at least that far for that round.

xphunter · « **Reply #9 on:** January 26, 2007, 05:31:28 AM »

Quote

With all that said as far as I am concerned, the shooters ability aside I feel that at which point the impact velocity drops off to 1800 FPS should be consider your maximum range.

Larry,
Hmm, that means with the elevations I hunt, my maximum range is from 950-1200 yards with "Puff."
I like that

Sorry, I could have resisted, but I just didn't want to

swampthing · « **Reply #10 on:** January 26, 2007, 09:03:16 AM »

Thats a good point. Angles and elevation. If you were up on a clliff, 500yds, looking down at game crossing underneath you, but they were only 20yds away from the bottom of the cliff you would just aim like it was at 20 yds and touch off. Yeah you just sent a bullet 500yds to impact but gravity pull was the same as if you compared it to a 20yd straight shot, except wind, flinch effect, actual accuracy at that range etc... etc...

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #11 on:** January 26, 2007, 09:10:22 AM »

Quote from: xphunter on January 26, 2007, 05:31:28 AM

Quote
With all that said as far as I am concerned, the shooters ability aside I feel that at which point the impact velocity drops off to 1800 FPS should be consider your maximum range.

Larry,
Hmm, that means with the elevations I hunt, my maximum range is from 950-1200 yards with "Puff."
I like that
Sorry, I could have resisted, but I just didn't want to

Yep that should be about right for you Ernie.

Me on the other hand and the cartridges I use it translates to about 300 yards for the most part, and for me that is far enough.

Larry

xphunter · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2007, 09:35:21 AM »

Larry,
I guess I was just in a onery mood this morning.
Never have even attempted big game at the max distances I listed above, but I am not opposed to the concept given the right conditions, my mindset and the ability to take a spotting shot (assumes I have someone I trust spotting for me) to the right or left of the animal 20 or so yards away to confirm my drop/wind dope is accurate. Then make the corrections if needed and drop it on the very first shot on the animal. This is assuming both the rig and the shooter is consistently capable of that level of accuracy in the field. My practice distance (field shooting) was typically 600 yards this fall. My practice distance was not far enough to even consider those "max distances."

swampthing,
You are so correct. angles, elevation, wind, and even the terrain between you and the target have a big play what is possible or not possible when considering long ranges. And having a bullet design that will perform at teh impact velocity to boot. Currently I have two ways to determine angle. One is with a ACI (Angle Cosign Indicator http://www.snipertools.com/aci.htm ) and the other is with the Leupold RX-IV LRF, which gives the degree of the angle and then also shows line of sight distance (windage-dope) and a corrected distance for the angle (elevation dope) all at the same time

.
A Kestrel for wind, temp, actual barometric pressure, humidity, and my pocket PC which is loaded with Exbal so I can get exact numbers as the atmospheric conditions change. But before all of that is useful is that you confirm your drops and BC's by actual field shooting at distances you intend to shoot and further under all kinds of wind conditions. Also have extra batteries and back up drop charts if technology fails. Also have the ability to Mil range, but I haven't used it alot and wouldn't trust it over 500 yards as slight miscalulations translate into big differences as the distance gets further.
The actual field BC for the bullet that "Puff" uses is right at .8 (7mm-200 grain Wildcat bullet ULD/RBBT).
Wind is the biggest factor in the field. Wind is your friend if you know how to read it, but it can be your greatest enemy if you ignore it or don't know what your bullet will do.

xphunter · « **Reply #13 on:** January 26, 2007, 09:54:00 AM »

Larry,
FWIW-last years whitetail (doe) was shot under 150 yards

I didn't pass it up since it was close.

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #14 on:** January 26, 2007, 03:14:58 PM »

Ernie you are truly the long range master. You use technology, and practice to achieve the goals you are after. I don't think anyone can find fault in that.

What you consider a short range shot is probably a long shot for a lot of people, and an average range shot for still others.

I still think the main ingredient is the shooters ability and then and only after that is mastered it becomes a question of ballistics. Yes I know you are going to say the two go hand in hand, and they do but you still have to hit the intended target.

Larry

xphunter · « **Reply #15 on:** January 26, 2007, 05:00:35 PM »

"master" - Not there.
When I compare myself to some of the rifle guys I know who have done this for a long time I feel like I am still playing in the shallow end of the pool. I have made some good progress, the last 4 years. Curious to see what the next couple bring.

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #16 on:** January 26, 2007, 07:41:21 PM »

You're to modest Ernie

xphunter · « **Reply #17 on:** January 27, 2007, 01:54:59 AM »

Larry,
I don't think so.
I truly enjoy shooting LR with Specialty Handguns and I do have confidence in my abilities and intentionally promote LR shooting with SP's.
But, I also realize I am not where I want to be in the long range game.
The longer distances, 700+ get more squirrely with each 100 yards added.
I feel real comfortable with "Puff" in the 600 yard range (and a tad further).
Saying all of that I still make mistakes and miss from time to time and some days I shoot better than others.
Shooting @ paper at 600 yards, prone-no sighters, tells you what you would really do on your first shot.
I usually shoot at least a 2nd shot and sometimes a 3rd for grouping and to make sure I didn't flinch or otherwise mess up in some way.
I use the Kestrel for the wind at location and it is my primary concern, then the wind at the last third of the distance is my secondary concern with the middle wind being last.
I don't use flags,since you don't get to put them out when you hunt

I will use flags though for comps and LR PD shooting.
One way to help you know the order of your shots on paper is to have several different colored markers with you and mark your bullets ahead/in front of the ogive (shows up on your paper target). Average group size @ 600 yards this past fall was in the 3" range. Had a couple of the ranges board members around on different times watching and was invited to shoot my SP's when they do their 600 yard high-power comps.
It would be alot of fun, but I don't want to shoot a lot of comps with the 7mm Dakota, as I would like for this barrel to last for a while

I may use one of my smaller capacity cartridges though in the future.

If you want to see what your LR SP is capable of there will be a long range bench (but you can shoot prone or creedmore if you like) specialty pistol competition June 14-16 in Sundance, WY. Rich Mertz (The maker of the MOA Maximum) is putting this on.
This is the first of what is intended to be a annual event.
In addittion to the comp and prizes and prize money there will also be fun shoots and PD shooting. Distances for the competition is from 500-1,000 yards. Rich came to one of our LR specialty pistol seminars last May and has been bitten by the LR bug real bad

If I remember right, the cost of the comp is $30
As far as I know I will be able to be there, and also plan to bring my 13 year old son to compete also.

xphunter · « **Reply #18 on:** January 28, 2007, 06:55:17 AM »

FWIW I have a number of other SP's whose "whatever" range is signifigantly shorter than the 7mm Dakota, like the 30-30AI, 6.5x57R, and 250 Sav. AI, and one of these days a 6x50R Imp. for the reasons mentioned by all in the above posts.

MnMike · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2007, 05:26:00 PM »

I hope I am not opening a can of worms here, but maybe the question should be how far should I try to kill a deer. Beyond the fact that they taste good, I like deer. I always look for a shot that will kill the deer quickly and leave little chance of a wounded animal getting away to die slowly and not going on my table. So far (for 35 years) I have been lucky.

Long range shooting is interesting, but I do that at targets, where my screw ups don't cause wasted game. At long range problems (as others have mentioned) are bullet expansion, energy of the round, shot placement, and escape into areas that may not be trackable by the hunter.

The distance varies by the hunter. My max (in Minnesota - wooded) is about 200 yards with a 30-06. 125 with a 7-30, 50 with a .45 Win Mag. Some could go more some should go less.

Varmits I care less about and will sometimes take a shot beyond my ability.

JMHO

mike

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #20 on:** January 31, 2007, 05:34:08 PM »

You are absolutely correct Mike. For me my self imposed limit is around the 300 yard mark. While I don't get to shoot nearly as much as I used to, I do try to practice quite often at what I feel is the maximum distance for each of the cartridges i use. In addition I try to get out at least once a year shooting Prairie Dogs with my Speciality Pistols. As you may or may not know that too is a long range proposition for the most part.

I have been an aquaintance of XP Hunters for a few years, and have talked with him via the net on several occasions. Ernie is an extraordinary Handgunner (whether he will admit it or not). What I consider long range is an average shot for Ernie.

I guess what I am trying to point out is that we all are different, we all hunt in different surroundings and we all set different self imposed limits on ourselves and our equipment. This is a good thing and satisfies each and every one of us.

Larry