Author Topic: aluminum bronze?? (Read 1319 times)

firebuckeye · « **on:** January 16, 2007, 03:16:55 AM »

I picked up a 18" x 4" piece of material to make a barrel out of, probably a howitzer of some sort. It was from a scrapyard and they gentleman that worked there, who according to a lot of people claims he is knowledgeable, stated it was aluminum bronze. He said its all brass just different characteristics. He put his gun on it and it said 95% cu (copper) and 4% fe (iron). Is this good cannon barrel material?

Thanks
Brad

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2007, 04:23:33 AM »

It's all good for cannons - if you use the proper liner (which is recommended anyway).

I have one piece of aluminum bronze - bolt for a Sten gun. So it probably takes hammering well.

It would be a good idea to look it up though.

firebuckeye · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2007, 04:31:31 AM »

would you explain the liner thing to me? Is a tube with welded breach? I understand it a specialt tube but is that what it is? And how is it inserted and held in? Most cannon builders can handle this right? Im thinking I may want a liner

Thanks
Brad

accuratemike · « **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2007, 11:09:10 AM »

Not to answer your question but, 18" x 4" huh? Same size as my (steel) chunk. Maybe this would interest you. http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,105118.0.html . Search here (Graybeard's) for "liner", there are standards for that sort of thing (seamless tube, welded & pinned breech etc.) (not an answer but, at least on topic for your question). Enjoy, MIKE

Tropico · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2007, 12:50:25 PM »

I am not so sure you need a liner really. For a Cast Iron barrel like a Hern (I have a few and like HERN very much)..,Yes a liner is a must and makes for a safe barrel. However I have many cannons that are machined fron solid materials and consider them amongst my better guns.., they have no liner.

I have Solid 360 Brass cannons., a 660 Bronze ., an 80% Stainless X 20% nickel cast and soon 303 Stainless Steel ..., None of which have liners
I consider them to be kick-butt liners themselves and as a whole long time collectable firable and inheritable tubes worth fighting over long after my demise.

At 95% Copper thats 10% more copper than 660 Naval bronze (Really good stuff)........ I am no machinist., only a humble collector...., of many barels. in my humble opinion your 4 " bore should be fine not to exceed 1.25" - 1.5 " bore and should be a fine cannon on its own . Especially when you consider an 18" X 4" as a sub- scale model without the ballistics of something like a 3" bore and up Yes ?

firebuckeye · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2007, 03:50:00 PM »

Tropico, you just made my day. I am really glad I got a hold of that stuff. I was thinking 1.5" but I really want it to be safe also. I have not decided totally yet on the bore so I am open to suggestions. I dont have experience with these so its hard for me to make a knowledgeable descision on stuff like bore size and powder sizes I will be putting in it. I am in the process of hopefully having some one machine a nice barrel for me. I dont remember who but someone recommended I do that and after thinking about it I am really glad thats the way Im trying to go. I hope this becomes a family heirloom itself. I know its early but will I be able to find a nice carriage or plans to build one? I havent looked that hard yet but if anyone sees something that may look good for this piece I would be interested in hearing about. Once again this forum and its members really rock!!!

Brad

Double D · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2007, 04:38:16 PM »

Brad,

Again I am going tp point you to the Sponsors list at the top of the board. Contact them for help in building your cannon. I don't think you will be disappointed.

I also strangly suggest before you go any further got to the top of the board and read the following posts and every link in them.

Safe Loads and Cannon plans

BPM&C Board Rules, FAQ's, Posting Pictures and especially Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon shooting FAQ's

GGaskill · « **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2007, 05:08:38 PM »

Aluminum bronze is pretty good stuff but I question your "expert" saying that it contains 95% Cu and 4% Fe. Hard to believe it would be called aluminum bronze if there was more iron than aluminum. The three alloys shown on the Anchor Bronze site (see below) all have the copper proportion from 80% to 85%. It would be nice if it is aluminum bronze but I would prefer a more qualified expert. Hopefully there is some kind of mark on the metal that identifies the alloy.

There are several types of aluminum bronze (see the Anchor Bronze web site.) The three shown there are all suitable for TIG welding which makes attaching trunnions easier.

The size is almost perfect for a half scale mountain howitzer which you could bore for golf balls/1 lb lead shot and chamber with a 1" chamber which would be within the forum recommendations for wall thickness.

firebuckeye · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2007, 05:25:27 PM »

I used expert loosely. He had a hand held meter that he pressed against it to give it those reading. Thats about as much as I know. He used the term aluminum bronze as if its all called that. So who really knows. I did contact a cannon builder from the board. For golf ball howitzer would it have a sub chamber? Or could it be built with out one? I know i said this 100 times already but im not sure i would not want to sacrafice the boom factor to shoot golf ball. If its better to be same bore all the way I might go that route. Please advise.

GGaskill · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2007, 05:34:27 PM »

If you really want a boomer instead of a shooter, simply bore the thing 1" all the way and see if that is loud enough. You can always rebore for golf balls/1 lb lead shot later and still have the 1" chamber.

I would use a chamber if shooting lead shot. Your real problem if you bore it to golf ball size is when someone in the future acquires it and starts shooting lead shot. Then it will be a risk; with golf balls it would be OK. You're at somewhat less risk boring to 1.5" because 1.5" shot are both lighter weight and harder to find.

firebuckeye · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2007, 05:45:56 PM »

you meant 1.5 inch all the way right? Golf balls sound fun though. 1.7 inches would be to much bored all the way wouldnt it. I have time to think about it still so I welcome everyones opinions.

GGaskill · « **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2007, 05:55:21 PM »

Yes, I meant 1.5" without a chamber, although I would not use the mountain howitzer profile then. Maintain the full 4" for at least 6" in front of the bottom of the bore. But you still face the issue of what happens when you loose control of the gun, and of not using an excessive charge while you do own it.

I would go with a golf ball bore (1 23/32") and a 1" chamber and a mountain howitzer profile, but that's me. It's your stuff and you will bear the responsibility for your decisions. :-)

firebuckeye · « **Reply #12 on:** January 16, 2007, 05:58:50 PM »

Yes thats true, but you all have been there before and have a better idea of what goes on with these. I truely value everyones opinion on here. Can the mountain howitzer be bounted to a 4 wheeled carriage/chassis? Would that be correct? I need to be able to build a carriage for it.

GGaskill · « **Reply #13 on:** January 16, 2007, 06:09:51 PM »

It CAN be mounted any way you want although the correct carriages are two spoked wheeled field carriages. You could start with a carriage of proper dimensions but using 20" bicycle wheels and replace those with wooden wheels when you can afford them.

See this thread for more mountain howitzer talk.

Thunderpaw · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2007, 03:50:53 PM »

I don't know what type of material you have but it sounds similar to ampco 21. I use this alloy for bushings and wear plates at work. Try this link for details of this alloy.

http://www.ampcometal.com/common/datasheets/en/A21_EX_RECT_E.pdf?PHPSESSID=0d486246e3dc7b2376ee6a43fafc0620

firebuckeye · « **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2007, 05:23:51 PM »

The numbers i saw would not add upto 95 percent cu (copper) unless the aluminum and others show upon meters as cu? What was the reason you thought it may be that? Thanks for mentioning it. I just am curious if I am missing something.

Thunderpaw · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2007, 02:10:58 AM »

When you said aluminum bronze I thought of this alloy because it is 80% Copper 13.1% Aluminum, 4.4% Iron, and 2% Manganese. I don't know what tool he used to check your stock but if it was accurate with your Iron content, this leads me to think his tool measures how magnetic i.e. how much iron is in something. If that would be the case the remaining makeup of the stock would be left up to educated guess.

I posted the link only as reference as to some mechanical and physical properties of the alloy I am familar with. If your material is close to this, I thought this information could be helpful.

GGaskill · « **Reply #17 on:** January 18, 2007, 04:11:15 PM »

Back again; the wifi at Yosemite Lodge was down last night.

The numbers i saw would not add upto 95 percent cu (copper) unless the aluminum and others show upon meters as cu? What was the reason you thought it may be that?

Your first post said it was 95% copper. I am not familiar with the "meter" device so I can't make any intelligent comment on its results. The three aluminum bronze alloys on Anchor Bronze all had about 4% iron but without other information on the material, I would never say it's any specific alloy. Maybe your "expert" knows more about the material or its source that allows him to reasonably call it aluminum bronze.

Double D · « **Reply #18 on:** January 18, 2007, 04:15:30 PM »

Okay, so it's some sort alloy, what kind of cannon are we gonna make from it?

Thunderpaw · « **Reply #19 on:** January 18, 2007, 06:45:33 PM »

I never claimed to know what material we are talking about. I was only hoping to describe an alloy that sounds similar. There is no way to now exactly what we have here, that is why it is in the scrap yard. I do not wish to mislead anybody as to what material to use , I am just trying to inform of certain properties. 4" x 18", I would personaly like to see a howitzer.

firebuckeye · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2007, 02:49:17 AM »

I would like forit to be made into a howitzer, golfball. The meter device was a gun that he held against the metal. He the nsaid it was 95 % cu and 4% fe. He said it asiff there was no guess to it. But who really knows. They would never guarantee it to be any specific metalsince it is in the scrapyard.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2007, 01:00:08 PM »

Quote from: firebuckeye on January 19, 2007, 02:49:17 AM

I would like forit to be made into a howitzer, golfball. The meter device was a gun that he held against the metal. He the nsaid it was 95 % cu and 4% fe. He said it asiff there was no guess to it. But who really knows. They would never guarantee it to be any specific metalsince it is in the scrapyard.

It could have been a portable mass-spectrometer - I've used one we had in for examination at work. I took full advantage of testing the lead-tin-antimony alloys I had on hand. It uses radiation to determine the types and percentages of elements present. New they run about $40k.

Rickk · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2007, 01:16:02 PM »

the company i work for more than likely made the detector and the power supply for your portable mass-spec CW... we make them for everyone.

I can't take too much credit for the detector, just the polarity switching high voltage power supply that powers it.

What brand, and how much fun was it to play with?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #23 on:** January 19, 2007, 04:19:30 PM »

It's a SMALL world.

I had it for a day about a year ago. Don't remember ANY details except gathering up all kinds of stuff to play with. Point, shoot, read the LCD readout on percentages of elements.