Model 83 big bore comparisons (strength, punch, versatility, lifespan)

[Lee Robinson]

Which of these offers the most "bang for your buck?"

With the 0.454" you can use big bore balistics and lesser 45 colt...have a lot of metal between cylinder chambers and cylinder outer wall...which should offer excellent strength...but to get big bore balistics you have to run at a higher pressure and may need that extra strength.

0.475" you have big bore balistics with less pressure, cast a big slug, and can "load it down" if you want still offering good power.

the 0.500" calibers you have the biggest hole puncher, but less metal between chambers in the cylinder and I am curious...does this cylinder/round combo shorten the lifespan of the gun?

So, what is the best in power, lifespan, and versatility?

[MarkH]

I think the only real answer here is personal preference and the game you are hunting.  But I would not worry about longevity or strength.  I am quite content with the versatility of the 454 - I generally shoot a 300 grain bullet at 1550 fps, but am working with 320's-360's now just for the heck of it.  It kills elk sized game just fine.

I have decided that I will get a 500 Wyoming Express or two for my upcoming moose hunt ... in 2009 ... or maybe it's 2010 ...

[Ken ONeill]

They'll all last longer than I will. I have used all 3 a great deal, and like them all, but prefer the .475 L with 400 gr. XTP's or 420 WFN Hard cast for versatility and for the best reason in the world... because I like it !

[2 dogs]

Agreed, the 500 WE with the mid range loads is very mild but still very powerful. I dont think anyone can shoot the full house loads in it enough to injure it. They are built very very strong. I am extremely impressed with my 454's. Especially with the accuracy!

[Zeus]

Lee,
I've got a Premier 7.5" 454 and a premier 6" 500 WE that you are welcome to shoot sometime.  I shoot at the range down in Byram a pretty good bit.  Just had our first kid on Jan 2 so shooting time is a little limited right now though.  I'll email you next time I'm going in advance and see what your plans are.  Heck, I'll even bring out your old Sig 220 and let you try it again .  I personally like the 454 for an all around pistol.  you can load it down to about 1250 with 255 cast bullets and its VERY pleasant to shoot and if need be, load it up and use it for whatever.  However, the same can be said for the other calibers also but I've owned the 454 the longest.  Take care.  GS

[MS Hitman]

Load that .500 WE to about 900 fps and it should be pleasant to shoot as well.

[Dusty Miller]

I'm with you Hitman, a 400 or 450 gr. WFN at 900 fps is gonna be good medicine for just about anything you'll find on the N. American continent. 

[Zeus]

Hitman,
Dewayne and I clocked the 400s and the 440s out of the 500 Wyoming and they were both going along at about 1100 fps.  Pretty moderate recoil and really good accuracy.   May recoil a little too much for you though grasshopper....   Call me, I found your blind for you.  GS

[SJPrice]

Just like my favorite loads in my 475 Linebaugh.  I load 390 grain Punch bullets to 1,000.  I get complete penetration no matter what I hit, including heavy bone and the recoil is mild and very controlable. 

[MS Hitman]

Yeah Zeus,

I like to stick to the .45ACP cases with 12.0 of 700X behind them in the .475.  Not much penetration, but boy are they easy on recoil and make a mess on impact.

[Zeus]

I still think your nuts with that crap.  Talk with you tomorrow.  GS

[Lee Robinson]

I need to meet a few of you fellows. Next time you are heading out to the range, give me a call if you don't mind. Perhaps I can make a trip if it is planned for. 601-573-3449

[mk454]

here's my breakdown on this, leaving the big smith's out.

the 475 will do absolutely everything any of the 500's will, it'll just do it with better ballistics potential.  to me, that kinda eliminates the 500's from my equation, i just don't have a use for them the 475 won't fill as well or better, plus the 475 is not only available in the FA 83, but in a sub 1K gun in the fine bfr.

now, on to the 454, to me, it's even more versatile than the 475, has even better trajectory potential.  can shoot 250 grain bullets around 850fps up to 400gr bullets over 1400fps.  it's the most affordable all the way around and will do everything still, the others will do.  i can have great trajectory and low recoil with a great deer round and load up to kill elephant/elk and anywhere in between.  to me, as i own both, i can see why some would favor the 454 and some would like and prefer the 475.  i just think that the 454 is the most versatile and any of them will kill anything inside of 100 yards so i just like the one that offers me the best trajectory as i've made the commitment to get good with my FA454's beyond 200 yards.


one of the most muddy ideas put out in the last several years is that a 44 is good for deer, a 454 is good for elk and moose, it takes a 475 for a buff, and 500's for elephant, etc.  nothing could be further from the truth.  the 454 was killing, and doing so well and without question on elephants/buffalo/and brown bear.  ALL OF THESE bigbores will and are capable of killing anything that walks, just don't be confused into believing that a 500 has an advantage on a 475 because it's slight difference in bore diameter. 

[EdK]

Good post mk454

I'd like to add that the 454 got the reputation for sharp/nasty recoil while the 475/480 and 500 rounds give a nice push like a 45 Colt. I can understand how that came to be: individuals bent on pushing sub-250gr JHP bullets to the 2000fps threshold. Load a 475 similarly and you'll get the same thing. Load your 454 with med or heavy for caliber hard cast and low and behold: "the push". They each (454 & 475) have a 1.4" straightwall case that can be loaded light-med-heavy for caliber. The recoil and blast will be very similar at the same pressures and respective (for caliber) bullet weights.

Does the 475 have the edge on ultimate power? Yes it does but bear in mind we're talking in the neighborhood of 10% more. Does it make sense you can kill the next category up of game with 10% more power? Only if the next size up is only 10% tougher...

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess its all realitive. Any of them properly loaded will take any game animal in the world. If it were my choise it would be the 500. Why go smaller when for the same price you can get more. Im not a great big fan of the 454. Might be an odd statement from someone who owns two fa 454s and there my only ones. Reason i own them is i got spectacular deals on both of them. the 454s dont seem to hold the value the other two do. Now the 475 is one of my favorite rounds if not THE favorite. I love it to death. It will push much larger and heavier bullets to speeds as fast as are practical in a handgun. The only problem though is in a FA 475 your limited in your bullet selection because of cylinder lenght and most of my favorite projectiles dont work in them. So to me a 475 needs to be a custom on a ruger. the 50we is a round that was designed for the 83. Loaded up to the max it will do anything a 500 linebaugh can do and thats alot. comparing balistics between a 475 linebaugh and a 500 line. is misleading. Most all of the 500 load data is on the mild side. even johns loads are just idling in the big gun. Load it up to its potentential and it will leave a 475 in the dust. Well maybe not in the dust but it will beat it. I look at a handgun as a cast bullet shooter should. My max loads for a cast bullet are 1300 fps. The 475 is capable of pushing 420s to that speed and the 500s are capable of pushing 450s to that speed and a 450 .512 bullet has simualar sectional density to a 420 475 so with the added weight it will penetrate as well or near to it and hit with more athourity due to the increased size. A 512 lfn has a simualr metplat to a 475 wfn and comparing those two bullets a 512 lfn will always have a better sectional density then a 475 with a wfn. No it doesnt come without a price. Loaded like that the 500s flat kick! I allways get a chuckle out of people that claim a 454 kicks as more then a 475 or a 475 kicks more then a 500. Boys its just physics. A 475 shooting a 400 grain bullet at 1300 fps is going to kick more then a 454 shooting a 350 at the same speed and less then a 500 shooting a 450 at that speed. When you want to tell me how much your 454 recoils take a ride over and ill set you up with a 500 shooting 450s at 1400 fps (very doable) How can it even be possible that  a 454 shooting 350s over say 28 grains of 110 be in the same league as a 500 shooting 450s with 32 grains of 110? It CANT. Now like i said ive got two 454s and have two 500 linebaughs so i dont need another 500 either. If i was buying a new fa gun today it would be a 4 5/8s 475 with a spare 480 cylinder and id about bet a dime to a dollar that 99 percent of the time the 480 cylinder would be in it. I couldnt imagine a better gun for big game hunting when the critters get deer sized or bigger. Id load it with 400 grain lfns or swcs at about 1100 fps and never look back.

[mk454]

Lloyd, and it's in the perspective or the "glasses we see the world through" on where we differ.  your original premise is in the idea of what a "cast" bullet shooter should want to shoot his loads at a given velocity.  yours is a magic 1300fps, and that's great.  there's FA loads that show a casull of 400 grains at 1600fps.  260 grains well over 2000 fps and that's what i think some people compare recoil to the others on.  not the sedate loads you're showing.  they can all be loaded beyond most people's recoil capabilities.  i however, prefer the option to shoot a 240-260 grain bullet out of an 83 at what is considered to be 460 smith territory.  if i need bigger why would i mess with a low powered 500, if i need more i'll go to the 500 smith.  i love expandable bullets and softpoints in game up to elk whether the original FA softpoint,  xtps, or the barnes x loads.  punch bullets change all the equations as well, it's here the velocity increases start to really help as well. 

i guess if i tried to limit myself to just cast bullets and keep velocities at around 1300fps i'd see the 454 as very limited compared to the bigger guys.  however, do some muley or elk hunting at unknown distances out in NM or texas across senderos or big draws and a fast 260 grain/300 grain round's advantages in trajectory become readily apparent imho.  just more versatile.

[Lee Robinson]

Lloyd and mk454...both of you make excellent points. I have heard from many people that the 454 kicks more than the 475 and 500...but everyone that mentioned this to me was using VERY HIGH velocity 454 and comparing them to BIG bullets at moderately high velocity out of the 475 and 500s. Certainly with the extra cylinder space one could push a 454 at much higher pressures even if not more KO. I don't know anything about the potential of either cartridge beyond what is obvious...and that is they are all awesomely powerful.

Lloyd, if you don't mind me asking...why would you have the 480 in 99% of the time compared to the 475?

[WL44]

Great posts by the way.

Simply a general observation...

I believe "recoil velocity" has a great deal to do with how recoil is perceived - this is not simply determined by the speed of the departing bullet, but a bunch of other stuff that I'm not qualified to comment on. I think ChuckHawk's site had some data on it somewhere. I certainly find this (mainly based on shooting rifles) a large determining factor in how I experience subjective perceived recoil unpleasantness.

Compare a .40 S&W 180gr at 1050fps with a .45 ACP loaded the same and I think you should get a sense of what I'm saying, even a 10mm loaded the same as the .40 seems to feel "softer". I certainly experience them differently.

Maybe someone who knows more about this can shed more light on it.

I agree that the X-Frame Smiths are awesome, a friend has a 460, but I like a 3lb or thereabouts revolver better.

WL

[Ken ONeill]

Lee,
I'm not LLoyd, but the answer to your question is contained in the last sentence of his last post. That load is adequate for most anything that people most frequently hunt, and is well within .480 Ruger territory.

[Lloyd Smale]

thats exactly correct Ken. Its a matter of praticality. A 480 shoots a 400 at 1200 fps and if you dont kill ANYTHING with that load its your own fault not the gun or the load. Sure the 454 and the wiz bang 460 smith are capable of pushing 250s to 2000 fps but what the hell are you going to do with a load like that.  It may flatten coyotes or small deer but its going to do massive meat damage. It may shoot flat out to 200 yards but theres not one handgunner in a 1000 that has a buisness shooting a sixgun at those ranges on a live target. If velocity is what you want a guy could get a custom mold for a 475 that produced a 250 grain bullet and push it to 2000 plus feet per second too. Bottom line is there all guns for shooting animals larger then deer and black bear. Sure you can and i have used them on deer but there not really nessisary.  Now when you hunt animals that are larger the 500 lbs with a handgun your in a catagory where cast bullets hands down are better. Ive done enough penetration testing and hunting to know that pushing a cast bullet to 1600 fps using any alloy is just not going to penetrate as well as one going 1200-1400. Lead alloys just arent strong enough to hit bone and not deform at those speeds. Bottom line is i dont need a 454 or 475 to get those speeds a ruger 45 colt or a 480 will do it. Velocity isnt what kills in a handgun. Penetration is what you want to look for. The ability of your load to push a relitively heavy cast bullet with a decent metplat to a velocity that is high enough to penetrate large bone and alot of hide and flesh and get to the vitals and that velocity level isnt that high. A 400 grain .475 or a 350 grain 454 going a 1000 fps will do a hell of alot of penetrating and in my opion even at that speed is a superior load to any load you will put together using jacketed bullets. Put a hole through the heat of an animal or even the lungs and its a dead animal period. Put 4000 foot pounds of energy into the shoulder bone of a buffalo with a load that doenst penetrate and farther and that animal will probably just walk off grazing.  John linebaugh has allways said it best. If you want more power in a handgun step up to a bigger caliber. a gun with a heavier bullet that can have a wider meplat and still have as good of a sectional density instead of try to push your bullets faster out of a smaller caliber. Im sure ill hear from all the 454 and 460 shooters who will tell me about all the animals they killed with 250 jacketed bullets at 2000 fps and im sure its been done and done cleanly many times but do it long enough and the wrong shot is going to present it self and your going to experience bullet failure. Just look at what 90 percent of guys that are experinced handgunners use for hunting and i think you find that they prefer hard cast bullets hands down over jackteted and very few of them are shooting loads that are over 1400 fps. Sure a 454 shooting 250 jacketed will kill a deer but it will kill it no deader then a 250 cast at a 1000 fps will and that cast load will even allow you to eat the animal you shot. So if you can decifer all the bs i just wrote you will see why i like the 480. It shoots a heavy bullet with a good sized meplat and an ideal speed for penetration and does it without the sharp muzzle blast of the 454 and the heavier recoil of top loaded 475s and 500s. Nice thing about the 475 and 500 is they can be loaded down to the same levels as the 480 and are capable of shooting even heavier bullets with the same metplat and even better sectional density as the 480 can but it comes with the price of recoil that is heavier then most handgunners can take. Bottom line is that in my opinion a sixgun is a 100 yard tool whether it be scoped or open sighted and the flatter trajectory of shooting light bullets fast just isnt needed and it does alot more harm then good. So my choise for the perfect FA gun would have to be the 500 it is the most versitle one of the group. It can be loaded up and down to kill anything and about any .500 bullet will work in it. If the cylinder on the 475 was a tad longer so i could use all of my favorite heavy bullets in it my choise would be a 475 fitted with an extra cylinder in 480 and the 480 cylinder would reside in the gun for 95 percent of all the hunting chores it would be used for. Its to bad FA wont make one with just a 480 cylinder. If they did Id buy one tommarow. Make mine a 4 5/8s premier with a good front post sight.

Lee,
I'm not LLoyd, but the answer to your question is contained in the last sentence of his last post. That load is adequate for most anything that people most frequently hunt, and is well within .480 Ruger territory.

[Grumulkin]

Look at the HUGE amount of meat damage on this fallow deer.  That's the side the 250 grain jacketed bullet from a 460 S&W Magnum starting about 2,350 fps exited from.  Other animals including a zebra fell to this bullet with similar amounts of HUGE meat damage.  I guess, 12 animals with this bullet isn't that much.  Once I've taken about 100 with it I'll have meaningful data.

[yooper77]

Ultimately it's your choice.

I personally chose the 454 Casull hands down in the Freedom Arms 83 Premier.  Reloading components alone are today's deciding factors for me.  The strength is unmatched, not to worry.

Just like any cartridge the 454 Casull can be downloaded or uploaded to fit you particular needs.  As with any handloading follow the powder manufactures to the letter in order to be safe.

Nothing on this planet can walk away from the 454 Casull, proven time and time again.

Sure, you can sit it beside the 475 Linebaugh and 500 Linebaugh, and see in some areas it come in second or last in energy or ballistics, but that is splitting hairs, in the field it simply donest matter on performance on game.

yooper77

[Graybeard]

Of all the deer I've taken with a handgun the one that went the furtherest before falling was shot with the .454 Casull using a Sierra 300 JSP. The hit was a good one thru both lungs and I'd never have believed a deer could go that far with a hole in both lungs had I not seen it for myself.

The buck wasn't all that large and was taken fully broadside from about 35 yards from a treestand so the shot was down and thru but was definitely a double lunger. He ran past me right under me in fact then on behind me. I figured I'd find him piled up a short distance behind me but boy was I kinda wrong.

I followed the blood trail and it just kept on going and going and then looped back toward the tree I was in when I shot him. When I finally got to the end of the blood trail he really was but a short distance behind my tree but he had made a huge loop and then returned almost to my tree. I guess the deer must have gone at least 250 yards or more all told before dying even tho he really was dead on his feet when hit really.

The bullet failed to expand at all and just acted like a hard cast and yeah that's about what it in effect was is a hard cast as that Sierra is a tough bullet and on this small deer found no resistance to make it expand.

[SM]

I've been reading this thread with great interest. However, no one has mentioned about how many rounds they've shot with their .454s, .475s or .500s. I got some replies about the round counts earlier, but it would be nice to get more comments, since there are so many guys in this forum who have one or many of these guns.

I only have a .454 Premier and haven't had a chance to shoot a .475 or a .500WE. The .454 has more metal in the cylinder etc., but it operates on such high pressures, that I don't know if it's any more durable than the larger calibers. I would love to get a .475 or .500WE some day, but I like to shoot quite a bit and the components for those are so much more expensive than for the .454. The costs actually had me thinking about a .44 as my second FA. That being said, I enjoy shooting my .454 so much that I may end up with another (+ maybe a .45 ACP cylinder)... To me, the .454 seems to offer very good versatility; from very stiff to very mild. And the accuracy is unbelievable too.

[Lloyd Smale]

the only real differnce in price of the reloading components is in the cost of bullets. The 45s tend to be cheaper but anymore cast bullets arent cheap anyway and if a guy intends on shooting ANY relvolver alot he about needs to consider taking up cast his own. Strength isnt a consern as any FA gun will last two lifetimes if it is run with loads that are pulled from a reloading manual.

[Graybeard]

I've been reading this thread with great interest. However, no one has mentioned about how many rounds they've shot with their .454s, .475s or .500s. I got some replies about the round counts earlier, but it would be nice to get more comments, since there are so many guys in this forum who have one or many of these guns.

I've never been one to try to keep an even remotely accurate round count on any firearm I own so giving an answer to your question is really quite impossible for me. I didn't own the FA83 in .454 Casull I used it was on loan to me from Freedom Arms for a product review. I was allowed to keep it for about a year I guess before Bob asked for it back and I packed it up and returned it. During that time I did own a Taurus Raging Bull also in .454 Casull and did a comparison review of it at the same time. It not the FA83 was the gun I used that year to take the buck over in GA as I think I had already returned the Fa83 but am not sure.

During the review between the two guns I was firing 150-200 rounds per day most days thru them and that went on for a good while tho not every day did I shoot them. My best guess is that during the review of the two guns I went thru at least a couple thousand rounds and I also took both with me on some trips and let others play around with them as well. I guess there must have been at least 1500+ rounds fired thru the FA83 before I returned it to FA how many plus I really don't know. I kept the RB454 a good while after the FA83 went back and used it some but after returning the FA83 I got another RB480 and liked it much better so traded off the RB454 and kept the RB480 until a year or so ago when I also traded it off on something.

I prefer the .480 Ruger to the .454 Casull however and were I to decide to get another it would more likely be chambered to .480 than .454 also for what I actually do these days the .44 Magnum and .45 Colt suit me just fine. I have an FA83 in .44 mag and an FA97 in .45 Colt and several S&Ws as well so figure my uses for them are well covered.

[MarkH]

A couple of years ago I put something over 10,000 rounds through three 454's with no ill effects - if you take care of the gun, and follow proper loading data, you are not going to wear it out or even wear it down.

I also have Jim Taylor's old 7.5" 454 - no telling how many rounds have gone through that gun, of all varieties, and it is still solid and accurate.

[mk454]

a physician out here in lubbock bought one of the first 83's made when baker took over.  it's still as tight as it was the first day he shot it and he put well over 10K rounds thru it.  they'll all last.  and yes, i'm guilty of using xtps with 100% success through my FA.  if it's a light load i use the 45 colt esque 250 grainer, for deer and hogs, the 240 mag, and for elk i use the 300 grain xtp mag, though would have no qualms about using the 240 mag.

[SM]

It's always nice to get confirmation that these things last. I received my .454 a year ago and have shot 2000 rounds through it; most of them pretty powerful loads (all of them were by the book). I'm planning on shooting at the same pace or even more frequently in the future, so I'm happy to hear that you guys haven't experienced any issues early on.

Mark, did you shoot 10K through each of those three .454s or 10K in total? What I've been reading about your shooting, the loads you used were probably in the real casull territory.

[MarkH]

In total ....... 100-300 rounds/week.  Great way to learn a gun.  No - they were not all heavy loads.  I had three ... I started out with a 300 gr cast Unique load; moved up to a midrange cast load with 4227, which is still a quite useful load around here; and worked up to 30.5-31 gr H110 and a 300 gr cast gaschecked or jacketed.

It's always nice to get confirmation that these things last. I received my .454 a year ago and have shot 2000 rounds through it; most of them pretty powerful loads (all of them were by the book). I'm planning on shooting at the same pace or even more frequently in the future, so I'm happy to hear that you guys haven't experienced any issues early on.

Mark, did you shoot 10K through each of those three .454s or 10K in total? What I've been reading about your shooting, the loads you used were probably in the real casull territory.