.358 win recoil?

[tree rat]

I know its a tough question due to differing perception, but I am interested in the recoil of a .358 win. considering getting a ruger frontier in this cal. when they come out. had the same rifle in .308 but sold it to fund another project. the recoil was stiff in .308 but the muzzle blast was beyond terrible! I am expecting more push, slower recoil impulse, and hopefully less muzzle blast, would that be about right?

[nasem]

I have never shot off a 358 win, but I can guarantee you, the recoil would be a little more (given that both rifles, the 308 and 358 were the same stock and same weight).

the powder charges in both rounds woun't be that much different, but the 358 is spitting heavier slugs and that effects recoil

[tree rat]

I agree it will be more recoil, but past experience going to a bigger bullet slower is easier on my shoulder because it feels like more push than kick, and my perception is muzzle blast is usually less too. so am I on the right track with my thinking? example, my brothers 300 wm HURTS, my .375 H&H just pushes alot! I have fired a .350 rem mag in a 673, would that be simiular to the .358 w in the ruger frontier? I guess I just have too many gun projects going at once, but I sure am having FUN! buying the guns ain't bad, but all these dies, diferent powders and scopes is about to sink me.

[nasem]

the idea of a "big push" vs a "fast punching jab" are things that people talk about to try to convince themselfes that some caliber doesn't kick a whole lot instead it "pushes" and I just don't agree with this whatsoever...

Recoil is a feeling you get when the hot gases EXPLODE out of the muzzle in fast and violent matter.  The heavier the bullets, the more recoil energy you will feel (respectivly speaking, say 308 shooting 165-gr @ 2700 VS 358 shooting 200-gr @ 2500).  Some people hate the recoil of full load 3" 12-ga slugs, you know, those nasty 350-400 grainers being pushed at 1800+ fps.  Big push theory ? I Used to belive it, until I started shooting my 375 h&h and my 300 win mag alot, and noticed I used to get fatigued ALOT faster with the 375 h&h than I did with the 300 win mag... I know the 2 calibers don't really compare, but it just confirms that the big push theory is not all that helpfull, there is still recoil energy being thrown at you, and your shoulder is on the recieving end.

Compare the recoil of, say a 458 win mag shooting 500 grain slugs at close to 2100 fps, big push ? pshhh yeh right...... shoot one off and you'll know exactly what Im talking about....... as matter of fact, the 458 win mag only has a maximum powder capacity of ... what.... 80 grains or so (to compare, a 338 RUM has a powder capacity of close to 100 grains), however, I bet you all the money in the world, that 458 is going to recoil ALOT more violenty than a 338 RUM.

[targshooter]

tree rat,
For what it is worth.... In the 1970s I hunted with an elderly fellow who had me sight in his rifles. He initially had a BLR in .308 and traded it in on a .358 version. The .358 had significantly greater recoil than the .308. He was using 150 grain .308 and went to the Winchester 250 grain factory load for the .358. It also had a pretty good muzzle blast. I believe the Winchester factory loads were hot.

[banen]

It has always made sense to me that from a physics perspective you could compare the Energy in FtLb's at the muzzle.  You know the old every action has an equal and oppisit reaction?  Now Granted the stock design will change what is felt, and the load / velocity build-up will change the time over with you feel it (push vs kick). 

[tree rat]

thanks folks, it would seem that I greatly underestimated the .358 w cartrige. from what target shooter posted, I don't think I want the ruger frontier in it because I didn't like the .308 in the same gun. you all saved me time, money, agrivation on this one. thats why I like this forum. you sure can't tell anything from a gun magazine anymore!!!

[espalding]

From a pure physics standpoint it's described by one of the three fundamental laws of classical physics,
the Law of Conservation of Momentum
The momenum of an object is it's mass (weight) times its speed.
It's pretty easy to conceptualize from the law's formula:

m1V1=m2V2

where m1= mass (weight) of bullet, and V1-velocity of bullet
and
m2= mass (weight) of the rifle, and V2= velocity of rifle (into your shoulder)

So even without trying to figure out units of measure, as we don't really need to know the speed of the rifle into your shoulder,
good enough to realize that it's a "linear realtionship" for example
if you double the speed of the same bullet you'll get twice the kick
if you double the weight of a bullet at the same velocity you'll get twice the kick

If it kicks too much shoot something different or gain a lot of weight!

[The Sodbuster]

I've wondered about this push/kick thing as well.  I put together a spreadsheet to measure recoil.  In order to arrive at recoil in foot-pounds, it also calculates recoil impulse (I've never been exactly sure what this is) and recoil velocity.  I haven't found any calibers that have large recoil figures without also having correspondingly large figures for recoil velocity.  What I mean by that is, just looking at the numbers, I havn't seen any cartridges that produce a lot of recoil but don't have a high recoil velocity (this might give more of a perceived "push" rather than a "kick").  I wonder if the "push" perception is more a function of stock design or quality recoil pad.  I don't really have any firsthand experience with "big" calibers above .308.

[corbanzo]

I have rifles in small fast and big slow calibers, the whole one pushes and one kicks thing is sort of true... but its not just a push.  Big calibers are going to move you, they are going to kick back hard, and the recoil energy is not going to be sucked up by your body fast.  This is where the "push" idea came from.  When I first shot my .458, a family friend looked at me after the gun made me move back, and told me he wasn't going to shoot it, especially if it moved a big guy like me. 

So the gun does kick back hard, but what you remember is the feeling of the gun pushing back on your whole body.

Smaller faster calibers are going to come back fast, but they dont have the same recoil energy, so your shoulder is going to take it, and not so much your body, so your shoulder is all you are really thinking about.

It seems to me that it is all about perception.  Shooting my .458 "all day" gets up to about 10-15 shots before it gets too hard and too expensive.  If I'm out shooting the -06 all day, that might be 50 shots.  If I'm shooting milsurp, that could be in the hundreds of rounds, making for a very sore shoulder, and you start to think it's slapping quicker every round. 

So what I say is the smaller rounds kick, and the larger ones kick and push, making the push more noticeable. 

If you have a big gun weight wise, in a big caliber, it is going to slow down the recoil velocity while keeping the total energy, in this sense, it is going to be more of a push.

If you take two guns at the same weight one in a larger caliber, it is going to come back faster and harder. 

If the big bore is truly a bigger gun, and it comes back slower with the same amount of energy, it is still going to carry inertia (the gun will keep moving, against the resistance of the body)