Author Topic: 30-06 vs 300wm  (Read 2941 times)

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Offline tree rat

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30-06 vs 300wm
« on: December 28, 2006, 06:08:42 PM »
will a 30-06 shoot right with a 300wm for group size, out to a max distance of 600yds. I know I will have more drop to deal with. I guess it would help if you know the rifles in question, 300wm winchester black shadow (brothers rifle) I am considering a savage 116 stainless with brake and accu trigger in 30-06 for informal compitition against him. what do you think, I could just get a 300wm but I would rather not deal with the recoil or mess with the belt for reloading.

Offline Val

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2006, 03:22:00 AM »
The 300wm will shoot a heavier bullet with greater muzzle velocity, which should be an advantage in your informal competitions on windy days.
Hunting and fishing are not matters of life or death. They are much more important than that.

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2006, 11:19:59 AM »
there was a national match won this year at camp perry with the .300 Win' Mag'.    i doubt that a .30-06 can shoot inside of a .300 Win' Mag' if the mag' shooter can handle the recoil/etc as well as you can handle the '06 on the whole.      why not try to outshoot him with a .280 Rem' instead which allows you to use match-grade projectiles at very good velocities with less recoil than his Win' Mag' and the '06?

the trend is actually toward smaller calibers and cartridges with less recoil while still keeping ballistic co-efficients and velocities rather high.   see www.6mmbr.com to look into such things.

one last thing: i wouldn't buy a Savage on a bet!   i'd buy a Remington, a Sako, a Tikka, a Ruger, a Weatherby, or a Howa before EVER spending money on a Savage.   

take care,

ss' 
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline Val

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2006, 04:08:00 PM »
I own a Savage 116 in 300 RUM. It has the factory brake that you twist on and off. This rifle get's me 1/4" three shot groups when I'm doing my share. This rifle is much more accurate than I am. There's a lot of people who have never given Savage rifles a try that like to bash them. I too have Remys, Winchesters, Howa and Rugers. I like my two Savages every bit as much as my other rifles, except for maybe my Remy 700s.
Hunting and fishing are not matters of life or death. They are much more important than that.

Offline Casull

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2006, 07:03:55 PM »
Quote
i doubt that a .30-06 can shoot inside of a .300 Win' Mag' if the mag' shooter can handle the recoil/etc as well as you can handle the '06 on the whole.

I wouldn't bet money on that.  The 30-06 held the world record for years with a 6 1/2" (approximate) five shot group at 900 yards.  This was back in the 30's or 40's. 
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Offline nasem

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2006, 07:57:06 PM »
with the right bullets and loads, they are both just as good.

I have never done 600 yard shooting, I, mostly do, 100 / 200 / and 300 yardage.  So far, my accuracy is best with my 30-06, much much much better than my 300 win mag.  Why ? because I practice the '06 alot more than I do my 300 so Im more familure with the gun and the caliber.  My best days with my winchester model-70 '06 are just a shade under 1" @ 300 yards.  With the 300 win mag, I am not even touching 1.5" and THATS my best days.

As far as bullet selection goes, I love the 180 gr Accubonds for the '06 (300 yard only) or the 180 gr remin core lokts (100 and 200 yards).

Now here is an idea that I have never tried yet, some people will disagree with me on this one, but I truely feel that my 7mm mag (winchester mod 70 XTR sporter 24" barrel) recoils a bit less than my synthetic winchester 70 30-06.... Dunno why. 
However, you can do this 600 yard project of yours with a 7mm mag, shoots a tad bit flatter than a 06 and recoils about as much (if not less).

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2006, 05:49:27 AM »
Quote
i doubt that a .30-06 can shoot inside of a .300 Win' Mag' if the mag' shooter can handle the recoil/etc as well as you can handle the '06 on the whole.

I wouldn't bet money on that.  The 30-06 held the world record for years with a 6 1/2" (approximate) five shot group at 900 yards.  This was back in the 30's or 40's. 

if i was still a betting man i would bet on it.   the 30's and 40's records have fallen, and the .30-06 has not stayed at the top of the heap since the .308 was developed, and the 7mm Rem' Mag', and so on......because there are other calibers which are more accurate than it is.    this is not just my opinion but a matter of record.     www.long-range.com will give you more information re: where the '06 stands in the present day........including Kent Reeve's 2006-winning of the Long Range National Championship using a .300 Win' Mag' (because of very windy conditions) launched by a Mauser action!

the NRA's book "Handloading" tells of the 7mm Rem' Mag' putting 10 shots at 1000 yards into 1 minute of angle more than 20 years ago.    that's a testimony to the ongoing development of cartridges since the venerable .30-06 first saw action.

take care,

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline lgm270

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2006, 05:53:35 AM »
I own a Savage 116 in 300 RUM. It has the factory brake that you twist on and off. This rifle get's me 1/4" three shot groups when I'm doing my share. This rifle is much more accurate than I am. There's a lot of people who have never given Savage rifles a try that like to bash them. I too have Remys, Winchesters, Howa and Rugers. I like my two Savages every bit as much as my other rifles, except for maybe my Remy 700s.

I've helped a lot of guys sight in Savage rifles at the range.  Big-5 sporting goods herein California sells them in an economical package with Simmons scopes already mounted.  These combo's seem to appeal to newer less experienced shooters who sometimes have prob's sighting in .  I've fired at least 10 of thse combo's, helping the new comers get sighted in, and without exception every Savage rifle was very accurate and I was able to get them sighted in with no more than a dozen shots.  That includes 7mm Rem mag, .270 and 30-06 cals. 

Savages are very good rifles in my experience.

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2006, 10:06:06 AM »
what i've read about the roughness of their barrels, and their button-rifling technique that i've studied, and their very flimsy stocks that i've handled lead me away from Savage rifles.   i think the Remington ADL synthetic stocks were borderline and were just a little too flexible for me.   but the Savage units have some stocks that are worse and their is no valid reason for it.    that's one reason why i like the American stock put on the Weatherby Vanguards.  it is a stiffer unit that is probably partly responsible for the accuracy that Vanguards maintain.   

the Remington synthetic stock may be borderline, but i think the Savage doesn't "make the cut!"

take care,

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline Gregory

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2006, 10:33:53 AM »
I'd look at this one in 25/06
http://www.savagearms.com/112varminter.htm

or this one in .308
http://www.savagearms.com/12fv.htm

combined with this scope with the BDC reticle:
http://www.savagearms.com/12fv.htm

and your brother will be buying the beer  ;)

Greg

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Offline Casull

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2006, 10:58:00 AM »
Quote
the NRA's book "Handloading" tells of the 7mm Rem' Mag' putting 10 shots at 1000 yards into 1 minute of angle more than 20 years ago.    that's a testimony to the ongoing development of cartridges since the venerable .30-06 first saw action.

3 shots into ten inches at 1000 yards is nowhere near as good as 5 shots into 6 1/2" at 900 yards.  The '06 was shooting less than 3/4 MOA at 900 yards.  One reason the .308 rules at the 300 yard shoots is that the extra power of the '06 is not needed at that range.  Is the '06 the best bench rest caliber?  Not likely.  However, it is no slouch either, and will shoot better than 99% of the shooters out there can hold.  I would definitely say that on average it is more accurate than the .300 mag.  It has a better designed case (i.e. not overbore and sufficient neck length to hold bullets).
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Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2006, 12:38:02 PM »
I wonder if any bullet fired from any 300 mag actually gets less accurate if it get's loaded into a 30-06? Next it sounds like their talking about factory rifles here, not full blown long range rifles. Brings up the next question, can an off the shelf 300 win mag shoot with a 30-06 in a full blown long range rifle? And then if you buy a 30-06 and decide to rechamber it to 300win mag, will it suddenly become more accurate?

Get your 30-06 and wipe his eye!
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2006, 04:25:30 PM »
a couple of you sound like this may have gotten personal: Casul and Don.   

i am Not a fan of the .300 Win' Mag' because of its recoil.   i don't see it as necessary in most North American hunting, nor in MOST North American shooting competition.  most of the long-range shooters don't use it either since recoil affects them as well.    Kent Reeve did rightly, however, because of the windy conditions affecting bullet drift.   he also picked up an advantage by getting a flatter trajectory, too.   

i just believe that when tree rat (who started this threat) mentioned bullet drop being greater with the '06, and when one considers the windage reduction of the .300 mag's greater velocity that it shows the '06 as having some disadvantages.   

CASULL: the NRA book spoke of 10 shots at 1000 yds, not 3!    you aren't reading the post, i guess.    there is a very significant difference, therefore.   

are you guys really offended by this discussion?

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2006, 05:26:44 PM »
I'm not ofended at all. I'm sure that either will work alright but in the origional post, the poster really didn't want to deal with the recoil. At the range he's talking, all the 300 mag brings to the table is reduced time of flight and in turn reduced wind drift. On calm days assuming the same bullets, there is no advantage for the 300 mag. For the thing left then is elevation. All of a sudden with wind drift out of it, the 30-06 pulls even, assuming quality bullets. I don't believe either is more accurate than the other. But if you take one rifle and trick it out, it would probally then have an advantage and that advantage would have nothing to do with the cartridge.

Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. I'm not a fan of any magnum under 338 but we are not talking about hunting here either. We're shooting targets I thought?
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2006, 05:41:20 PM »
Quote
i doubt that a .30-06 can shoot inside of a .300 Win' Mag' if the mag' shooter can handle the recoil/etc as well as you can handle the '06 on the whole.

I wouldn't bet money on that.  The 30-06 held the world record for years with a 6 1/2" (approximate) five shot group at 900 yards.  This was back in the 30's or 40's. 

if i was still a betting man i would bet on it.   the 30's and 40's records have fallen, and the .30-06 has not stayed at the top of the heap since the .308 was developed, and the 7mm Rem' Mag', and so on......because there are other calibers which are more accurate than it is.    this is not just my opinion but a matter of record.     www.long-range.com will give you more information re: where the '06 stands in the present day........including Kent Reeve's 2006-winning of the Long Range National Championship using a .300 Win' Mag' (because of very windy conditions) launched by a Mauser action!

the NRA's book "Handloading" tells of the 7mm Rem' Mag' putting 10 shots at 1000 yards into 1 minute of angle more than 20 years ago.    that's a testimony to the ongoing development of cartridges since the venerable .30-06 first saw action.

take care,

ss'   

Now for the sake of argument, the 30-06 was one time king and people have since looked to faster cartridges to fire heavier bullet's to over come wind drift. Since the 30-06's hayday, powders and bullets have improved greatly, but the 30-06's use has tailed off. I doubt because of accuracy potentional. But the larger cases made dealing with wind easier in that the same bullet's could be driven faster for a reduced flight time. None of what happened, it seems to me, indicates either might hold an accuracy advantage. Just as bench resters are looking to reduce 100 yd groups by .001", so are 1000yd shooters but .001" at 1000 yds is what? I think that that range, it's more important to reduce wind drift. That is done with velocity and heavy bullet's.

I should also say I don't shoot at those ranges but as I think about it, it certainly makse sence. It does work at the comparative short ranges I shoot, 400yds. I should add that shooting at ranges that are being talked about, a great deal has to do with shooting and understanding how to use what you have. Beyond some range, the cartridge can no longer cover for an average shooter.

What do you think?
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline tree rat

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2006, 06:27:58 PM »
seems like I opened a can of worms with this one, remember this contest is to be very informal target practice between brothers, with BONE STOCK rifles, we are not the best shots, about two minuite of angle out to 600yds = 12 in groups, both of us with the 300 wm. I just wanted to know if the savage 116 30-06 would work just as well if not possibly better considering I would have much less recoil to deal with. and I thought 30-06 would be eaisier to load for and brass would hopefully last longer due to it not having a belt. I know our groups are rather large, but we are using a straight 4x nikon scope

Offline Casull

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2006, 07:10:58 PM »
Safetysheriff, no offense taken.  I did misread the number of shots for the 7mm Mag. in your post, but I still say that 5 shots at less than 3/4" MOA at 900 yards is better than 10 shots at MOA at 1000 yards.  Truth be told, I have 8 centerfire bolt guns, but only one of them is a 30-06.  It is a 25 year old Savage 110E (the cheapest model) that I bought when I was in school and it will shoot sub MOA when I do my part (even with a cheap synthentic stock that I replaced the cheap hardwood stock with).  Nothing personal, I just have a soft spot in my heart for the old '06.  ;D
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Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2006, 07:13:37 PM »
I don't think it's a can of worms. It was a good question about informal shooting that some took a more formal position on. Refer to my first post, get your 30-06 and wipe his eye.

Happy New Year! ;D
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2007, 12:44:28 AM »
one of the current 'darlings' in the competition circles indicates how lesser bullet weight by way of smaller calibers (lesser recoil) and greater velocity of the smaller calibers (better wind drift and better elevation results if loaded properly) are being sought after.   it's the 6.5mm-.284.     but the 6 mm's themselves get plenty of attention in shooting out to 600 yds and more for recoil and performance considerations.

i never said i don't like or use the .30-06.    i said that i doubt it is more accurate than ("i doubt it can shoot inside of...")  the .300win mag' if one can handle the mag's recoil.    i recommend the .280 Rem', however, for anyone that will shoot long-range competition (even if informal......because it can be educational to us) with a hunting-grade rifle.   i especially recommend it since 'tree rat' is still looking at making his purchase from what i read.   

i admit that i made a strong statement about Savage when i said i wouldn't buy one on a bet.   no offense was intended.   i don't come here to raise anyone's blood pressure!   but i feel this way because of quality and cost comparisons with other available rifles.   these comparisons -- to me -- include barrel life/erosion and accuracy deterioration as a function of it.    that's why i prefer hammer-forged and cut-rifled barrels.   

actually, i'd like to see more bullet-mfr's......Sierra being the only one right now that i know of.....produce match-grade projectiles for the .270 Winchester.    i see it as the potential accuracy champion down the road yet, because of recoil and velocity-related factors.

take care, and Happy New Year,

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline tree rat

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2007, 03:01:06 AM »
I have spent too much $ so the savage will have to wait awhile. I guess I could give it a go with my new .375 h&h, but I AIN'T shooting that one from a prone position! and I think bullet drop will be severe past 300 yds. I know, I know, I didn't want a belt or a lot of recoil but got both, but I just had to have it, some times you have to listen to the kid in you, well most of the time for me lately.

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2007, 03:43:32 AM »
tree rat'

if you handload you can adjust the FL re-sizing die to just bump the shoulder back til the cartridge will chamber.  then you are headspaced on the shoulder instead of the belt and the brass will last longer.   it's an old handloader's trick to do so.

obviously you will run the die down into the press and experiment with it, possibly not bumping the die with the shellholder, or maybe bumping it very lightly.    i've done it.   

take care,

ss' 
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2007, 04:51:38 AM »
tree rat,

It doesn't matter what cartridge you use, at 600yds none will make the trip without raising the sights. That is not a product of the cartridge, it is a product of the shooter. If you figure out how much hold over you need for the cartridge your using, then all you have to do is figure wind drift. What ever anyone say's, you are always lobing bullets at targets. Then at some point as the bullet slows down, the lob gets tuffer! Bullets simply do not travel in a straight line as a lazer beam does.

Again, get any cartridge your ok with the recoil on and wipe his eye.
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline jro45

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2007, 04:17:00 AM »
To shoot long distance you would have to have a high B.C. bullet to get good groups and the 300 Win would be a better rifle to shoot long distance. Like you said you would have a lot more drop with the 30/06. I shot 600 yds with my 270 Win and the group was 3" at 600 yds. So maybe you could do it with a different rifle.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2007, 05:16:26 AM »
To shoot long distance you would have to have a high B.C. bullet to get good groups and the 300 Win would be a better rifle to shoot long distance. Like you said you would have a lot more drop with the 30/06. I shot 600 yds with my 270 Win and the group was 3" at 600 yds. So maybe you could do it with a different rifle.

What scope do you have on that 270 that allows you to see that good to give you 3 inch groups at 600yards???
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Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2007, 05:34:58 AM »
Redhawk,

If he had a big enough bull, he could maybe do it with a 1x scope! I shoot at target's to 400yds and shoot everything, at targets, on 6x. All I do out there is increase the size of the bull. It's nothing more than an aiming point.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2007, 08:31:22 AM »
You would have to pick the exact same spot to get a 3 inch group at 600 yards.  I have a farm field behind my house and there is a irrigation pump sticking out of the ground at 550 yards away. With my scope on 10 powder, I doubt I could put 3 shots in a 3 inch group at that distance.  That is why I asked what scope he was using.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2007, 05:15:21 PM »
You would have to pick the exact same spot to get a 3 inch group at 600 yards.  I have a farm field behind my house and there is a irrigation pump sticking out of the ground at 550 yards away. With my scope on 10 powder, I doubt I could put 3 shots in a 3 inch group at that distance.  That is why I asked what scope he was using.

Picking out the same spot with a low-power (10x for example) is not necessarily all that difficult.  It depends greatly on the target.

With iron sights I can't shoot for crap at 200 yards if the target is a 6" bull, but make it 12" and black and I can (and have on multiple occasions) shoot 2" groups.
 
My experience at 600 yards is exactly two shots, a sighter and one for the money.  My daughter's friend made a third shot, also for the money.  The two money shots landed 2" apart on freshly painted steel.  We were using the same aim point.  The scope was on 9x.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2007, 05:18:04 PM »
As to .30-06 versus .300 anything, I suspect the differences in individual rifles and the loads chosed for testing are the determining factor as far as accuracy goes.

As far as hunting goes, both can be easily accurate enough for any shot I will ever take.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2007, 01:09:52 AM »
 I am not calling anyone a liar, but I just find it hard to believe.

I have been to 1000 yards shoots in Raton New Mexico and the target they were shooting at, were 1000 yards away and the bullseye's were 10 inches. The target itself was 4 feet by 4 feet. There were guys shooting MOA out there and they shoot all the time. MOA for 1000 yards is a 10 inch group. Keeping them in the bullseye's.  Shooting 50 BMG's 338 Lapua and 30-06.
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Re: 30-06 vs 300wm
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2007, 01:28:17 AM »
The .308 Winchester is more accurate than either, but I'd choose the .30-06.  I suspect any short magnum will be hard to find brass for in a few years.