A few .223 questions.

[Tippy]

Hello everyone!  My name is Mike and as you can tell this is my first post on this HUUGGGEEE forum.

I have a .223 rifle and a few diffrent questions about it that i hope i will get some good answers to 

My first question (and what im most confused on) is the diffrent bullets and amount of grain loads.
Am i right about there are 3 diffrent types of bullets.
1- Hollow point
2- Plastic tip (i dont know if theres another name for it)
3- just the regular solid tip (again, i dont know if there is another name for it)

Also...i dont get the diffrent grain loads.
Right now im sited in with Remington 45 Gr. Jacketed hollow point UMC bullets.  I know that there are bigger loads i can get.
With that, how big of a load do they sell for a .223 and about how much would switching from a 45gr. to a (lets say) 60gr. load change on accuracy?  Would i have to scope in again?

I noticed on the back of a Winchester box for .223 ammo, it has diffrent "ranks" in its bullets going from 1 to 4.
They rate #4 as  "Ideal for game such as Cape buffalo and elephant"    i though a .223 was just for varments!  haha  right now i have #1 on the list, its ment for coyotes and small varments.

Ok, now on to the diffrent barrels.
I have been searching around on the net and see that there are diffrent "twists" in barreles.  What is the diffrence and what is the purpose of the diffrent "twists"?

Thats all i will ask for now, i dont wanna swamp everyone with a whole bunch of quesitons at once 


Thank you for reading!!

Mike~

[quickdtoo]

Welcome aboard, Mike!

The plastic tipped bullets are call ballistic tips, alternative is the soft points or controlled expansion bullets.

Most .223 NEF/H&Rs have had a 1:12" twist rate until last year when H&R started switching over to a 1:9" twist rate which normally will stabilize the heavier bullets, but for all practical intents and purposes, most 40gr thru 60gr shoot well in both twist rates, anything much heavier doesn't do well in either due to the shallow micro-groove rifling. If you want to shoot the heavier bullets, the 60gr Vmax, 63gr Sierra #1370 and the 64gr Winchester Power Point all have good track records in both twist rate.

Looking at the Winchester web site, they show no CXP rating for most of the .223 ammo, but some is shown as CXP-1

Tim

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/comparerifle.aspx?multiadd=VVNBMjIzMi0xLTErQUVBLVVTQTIyM1JGLTEtMStBRUEtWDIyM1IyLTEtMQ==&action=3&ctype=1&atype=1

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/comparerifle.aspx?multiadd=U0JTVDIyM0EtMS0xK0FFQS1TQlNUMjIzQi0xLTErQUVBLVgyMjNSLTEtMQ==&action=3&ctype=1&atype=1

[toyfj40]

Tippy:  what is your rifle?
  make/ model/  action/ barrel/ age...
  if you know the  Rifling-Twist-rate, or with specifics,
  it can likely be  "looked-up" on the Mfg WebSite...

  What is your "scope"?  what  'X' are you using at what distance?

  How "old" is your rifle?  ie. How many  'rounds' thru it?
  if  "new", have you gone thru a  Break-In period ?

  Your  Rem/UMC 40gr are on the  "lite-side"...
  some  .223 go up to about 70gr+ 
  but are usually  55gr for the  1:12 and 1:14 twist barrels
  and  65/69gr for the  1:9 and 1:8 twist barrels...

  most likely  ANY CHANGE in your ammo will require a
  Re-Zero of your  scope...  what range are you currently shooting?
    50yds...  100yds...  ?
  Try it yourself...  shoot  4-5 shots as carefully as you can to get a
  close-group... then simply use a different  brand/weight bullet...
  and "shoot the same"... the bullets will likely move over a little...

  are you shooting from a  Sandbag/rest ??  or  just your elbows?
  are you at a  Std-target-distance  Shooting Range...
  or do you have private property to shoot at your own "targets"... ?

  whatever the rifle, ammo or target...   accuracy is mostly "Practice"...
 
  ... it never ends... there is always something else to consider to
  improve/maintain accuracy... 

[Norseman112]

Hi Tippy and welcome to GBO.  I reload and I have been staying under 55 gr bullets and they perform well for my .223 ultra which is a 1:12 twist



John

[Tippy]

Welcome aboard, Mike!

The plastic tipped bullets are call ballistic tips, alternative is the soft points or controlled expansion bullets.

Most .223 NEF/H&Rs have had a 1:12" twist rate until last year when H&R started switching over to a 1:9" twist rate which normally will stabilize the heavier bullets, but for all practical intents and purposes, most 40gr thru 60gr shoot well in both twist rates, anything much heavier doesn't do well in either due to the shallow micro-groove rifling. If you want to shoot the heavier bullets, the 60gr Vmax, 63gr Sierra #1370 and the 64gr Winchester Power Point all have good track records in both twist rate.

Looking at the Winchester web site, they show no CXP rating for most of the .223 ammo, but some is shown as CXP-1

Tim

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/comparerifle.aspx?multiadd=VVNBMjIzMi0xLTErQUVBLVVTQTIyM1JGLTEtMStBRUEtWDIyM1IyLTEtMQ==&action=3&ctype=1&atype=1

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/comparerifle.aspx?multiadd=U0JTVDIyM0EtMS0xK0FFQS1TQlNUMjIzQi0xLTErQUVBLVgyMjNSLTEtMQ==&action=3&ctype=1&atype=1

Thank you for the Reply! 
I have never heard of soft points or the controlled expansion bullets. 

Before i go any further i would also like to say that i bought this rifle at a local gun shop.  It was previously used to shoot coyotes, i do not know how many times it was shot, and i do not have the Owners Manual.

Is there some way i can find out what twist my barrel is?  And ive seen alot of posts about diffrent barrels and twists.  I dont quite understand it, the diffrence between twists and barrels that is.

Tippy: what is your rifle?
 make/ model/ action/ barrel/ age...
 if you know the Rifling-Twist-rate, or with specifics,
 it can likely be "looked-up" on the Mfg WebSite...

 What is your "scope"? what 'X' are you using at what distance?

 How "old" is your rifle? ie. How many 'rounds' thru it?
 if "new", have you gone thru a Break-In period ?

 Your Rem/UMC 40gr are on the "lite-side"...
 some .223 go up to about 70gr+
 but are usually 55gr for the 1:12 and 1:14 twist barrels
 and 65/69gr for the 1:9 and 1:8 twist barrels...

 most likely ANY CHANGE in your ammo will require a
 Re-Zero of your scope... what range are you currently shooting?
 50yds... 100yds... ?
 Try it yourself... shoot 4-5 shots as carefully as you can to get a
 close-group... then simply use a different brand/weight bullet...
 and "shoot the same"... the bullets will likely move over a little...

 are you shooting from a Sandbag/rest ?? or just your elbows?
 are you at a Std-target-distance Shooting Range...
 or do you have private property to shoot at your own "targets"... ?

 whatever the rifle, ammo or target... accuracy is mostly "Practice"...
 
 ... it never ends... there is always something else to consider to
 improve/maintain accuracy...

Thank you for replying also!   

Here is all of the information that i can find on the gun.

Handi Rifle
Cal. 223 REM.

New England Firearms
Manufactured in Gardner, MA U.S.A
U.S. Pat. NO. 3988848
Ser. NO. NS XXXXXX

Thats all that i see.
As for the scope.  It is a tasco Silver Antler.  Also came on the gun when i bought it.

right now i have it sited it right around 450 feet.  And i have my own property to shoot on, and i didnt use sand bags.  I first used my elbows, then backed up about 50 yards and used a tree to rest on.  then used my elbows again at the farthest point away.

I dont have access to a range....there arnt any close by me 

Hi Tippy and welcome to GBO. I reload and I have been staying under 55 gr bullets and they perform well for my .223 ultra which is a 1:12 twist



John

Thanks for that info!! 
_____________________________________

Also, is this a good/ok scope?  I have no clue when it comes to scopes what the #'s mean.  Like if it says 9x48...i dont have a clue as to what that means. 

I would also like to add that i will be useing this mainly as a Coyote Rifle, i plan on takeing a trip in the summer to go Wild Boar hunting!

This Rifle shows No wear at All eather!  No scratches, rust, warn out spots, nothing. 
I am attacting some pictures at the bottom of this post


I would like to thank everyone again!  Im so happy that i found a good place to get great information at with something i know little about.

Thank you,
Mike~

[toyfj40]

Tippy:  ah. now we have some data to respond to.

1. use the  'Modify' button on your posting to edit your  S/N.
    I suggest that you NOT post a full-serial-no on the internet.
    change it to mask out the last  3-4 digits, thus:   NS 37xxxx
   
2. The  FAQ-stickie will guide you on the  S/N to get the Mfg-date,
    from memory, as I cannot read the FAQ while I reply...
    it is likely a 3year-old rifle...  and the  .223  Rifling was recently
    changed by NEF from   1:12 to  1:9  (is that right?)
    so, I'd presume you have the  1:12 twist in your barrel.

    the  "lighter bullets" will perform a little better in your barrel.

3. scope numbers:   
     3-9x32  means that it is a Zoom from  3x to 9x and has a  32mm diameter objective/front lense
      8x40   means that is is fixed-power at  8x and has a  40mm objective lens.

4. performance may vary, but generally speaking, the twist-rate  -vs- the  bullet-weight
    is an issue for  the more precise-target shooter...  since you are going to be stalking
    the  'yotes...  and shooting from a  standing or kneeling or  Tree-Bark-Rest...
    I would not expect the   40gr-lite bullets to deliver as much   Oomph-Kill-power to the  'yote
    as the heavier  and more commonly available  55gr.    The  65gr may begin to loose some
    accuracy over the longer distance shots...

    so, as you get familiar with your rifle.  consider staying with the  45/ 50/55gr bullets-ammo
    and learn to hit that  soda-can at  75-100 yards consistantly ...
    that should be a good initial target for the  coyote-heart/lungs at that distance...
    The  bullet-weight  -vs-  twist-rate will likely cause differences that are not noticable
    for a  standing/kneeling shot.

I would put the  ballistics details aside and just focus on learning to shoot your new rifle...
good luck.

[Stan in SC]

Also your rifle appears to be the Ultra Light model.

Stan

[Datil]

 If Your barrel is 20 inch ( from  breech to muzzle ) It is super lite weiht.
 probabily shoot better with 55 gr. bullets or smaller.just my 2 cents.
 Marv.

[Tippy]

Tippy: ah. now we have some data to respond to.

1. use the 'Modify' button on your posting to edit your S/N.
 I suggest that you NOT post a full-serial-no on the internet.
 change it to mask out the last 3-4 digits, thus: NS 37xxxx
 
2. The FAQ-stickie will guide you on the S/N to get the Mfg-date,
 from memory, as I cannot read the FAQ while I reply...
 it is likely a 3year-old rifle... and the .223 Rifling was recently
 changed by NEF from 1:12 to 1:9 (is that right?)
 so, I'd presume you have the 1:12 twist in your barrel.

 the "lighter bullets" will perform a little better in your barrel.

3. scope numbers:
 3-9x32 means that it is a Zoom from 3x to 9x and has a 32mm diameter objective/front lense
 8x40 means that is is fixed-power at 8x and has a 40mm objective lens.

4. performance may vary, but generally speaking, the twist-rate -vs- the bullet-weight
 is an issue for the more precise-target shooter... since you are going to be stalking
 the 'yotes... and shooting from a standing or kneeling or Tree-Bark-Rest...
 I would not expect the 40gr-lite bullets to deliver as much Oomph-Kill-power to the 'yote
 as the heavier and more commonly available 55gr. The 65gr may begin to loose some
 accuracy over the longer distance shots...

 so, as you get familiar with your rifle. consider staying with the 45/ 50/55gr bullets-ammo
 and learn to hit that soda-can at 75-100 yards consistantly ...
 that should be a good initial target for the coyote-heart/lungs at that distance...
 The bullet-weight -vs- twist-rate will likely cause differences that are not noticable
 for a standing/kneeling shot.

I would put the ballistics details aside and just focus on learning to shoot your new rifle...
good luck.

Whoops!  LOL..didnt even think about blocking out the S/N    Looks like someone already did it for me though!  Thanks!

I looked in the FAQ sticky.....wait, i just re-thought about something i saw in there.  Never mind, i will have to check it again 

Thank you for describeing what the numbers on a scope ment!  That helps me out alot now 

When you said that the 65gr. will start to loose accuracy at a far distance, about how far would that be? 
My goal is to be able to shoot a pop can at 150yards with every shot.  It would make me feel a whole bunch better if i knew it would still be within 2 or 3" at 200 yards though.

Do you think i should buy another barrel for this?  will 55gr. bullets travel accuratly every time at 150yards?  or should i look at moveing up to 65gr?

Also, my dad said that i should buy from one company and stick with it because another company could make it a little diffrent and it wont be as accurate with another brand.  Is this true?  Or does it not matter what brand i use each time, just as long as the bullets are the same grain?
O, and will switching from hollow point to something else change the accuracy?

Thank you again for answering my questions, I REALLY appreciate it.

 If Your barrel is 20 inch ( from bt-reach to muzzle ) It is super lite weiht.
 probabily shoot better with 55 gr. bullets or smaller.just my 2 cents.
 Marv.

bt-reach?? Whats that 


---------------------------------------

Thanks,
Mike~

[quickdtoo]

bt-reach?? Whats that?

Marv meant breech, the rear most part of the barrel.

Tim

[Datil]

 Thanks Tim always good to always good to have some one to catch my mistakes
 Marv.

[Tippy]

its 20".  Super light   YAY!

...is that good?  LOL 


Thanks,
Mike~

[quickdtoo]

Not catch, tattle....Marv!!!!

Mike, the superlight .223 is a little more finicky to find a good load for than a standard or bull barrel, but they don't have the reputation of the .243 superlight which can be frustrating from most reports, just be patient if you don't find an accurate load right off. If you take your time at the range and don't let the barrel get too warm, let it cool well when it does get warm, you should have no problems finding a load.

Tim

[myarmor]

I'm a little late here, but welcome to GBO Tippy/Mike. Good bunch here with lots of useful info, as I am sure you have already seen. Not much more I can say that they haven't  Go try a couple different loads and see what your rifle likes. After that, stick to em. Don't fix what ain't broken right Enjoy your little Handi.

-Aaron

[toyfj40]

When you said that the 65gr. will start to loose accuracy at a far distance, about how far would that be?
My goal is to be able to shoot a pop can at 150yards with every shot. 
It would make me feel a whole bunch better if i knew it would still be within 2 or 3" at 200 yards though.

Do you think i should buy another barrel for this?  will 55gr. bullets travel accuratly every time at 150yards? 
or should i look at moveing up to 65gr?

Also, my dad said that i should buy from one company and stick with it because another company
could make it a little diffrent and it wont be as accurate with another brand.  Is this true? 
Or does it not matter what brand i use each time, just as long as the bullets are the same grain?
O, and will switching from hollow point to something else change the accuracy?

see if you can identify your scope, assuming it is still in production...
  http://www.tasco.com/riflescopes/pronghorn_main.shtml

1. this business about  Bullet-weight -vs- Twist-Rate just does not apply to your shooting,
  at least at the moment.   We've established that you (likely) have a  1:12" twist,
  that  twist generally goes well with the  55gr (50-60 range) bullets...
 
  when a shooter tries to  "tune a load" for a particular chanber/barrel/twist, it will involve
  finding a  Bullet that performs well when shot from that rifle, then  very carefully find the
  Powder-burn and amount that produces just the sweetest velocity for THAT bullet to
  be   *** CONSISTENT ***...   THEN  he learns how to shoot-CONSISTENTLY such that
  the bullet is more likely to travel the same (if the wind/humidity are also the same)...
  and the bullets will CONSISTENTLY  hit nearly the same spot... at 100yds...
  then the load may need to be adjusted for a 200yd shot...
  What I'm trying to say is...  you're shooting from Tree-Bark with  Store-bought-ammo...
  so... try a few  45gr, some 50gr, some 55gr and some 60gr  (assuming you can find the
  variety and afford the assortment)...  with the  same  bullet and the same powder...
  which are not going to be documented...  and see if you can shoot consistently...

  I'm getting "wordy"... but with the intent of helping you understand that we cannot just
  tell you  which barrel to go buy and what ammo to buy to be the most accurate...
  ... we DON"T KNOW !!!...  the best of us (not necessarily including me ...) work hard to
  learn how to be CONSISTENT with a  bullet, powder and barrel... THEN shoot consistently
  and THEN learn how to use that  consistent-shot to place the bullets pretty-near the same
  place fairly consistently... 
  Shooting a  soda-can with  Winchester 55gr at 100yds  pretty consistently while leaning against
  a tree...  seems like it would be pretty good shooting...
  to consistently place  shots in a  1" ring at 200yds will very likely take you two years and $5000
  of ammo, reloading, various rifles... plus your TIME... 
  I exaggerate some to make my point... 

  I'll digress with this story...
  A pawnshop near me has a LOT of  old  odd-lot  Golf-Clubs...
  I presume that  TigerWoods uses the best custom designed golf clubs that anyone can possibly make for him.
  I'll wager that   if  a  non-golfing-housewife went and selected 10 clubs from the pawn shop
  for Tiger to use and I got to use his  custom-clubs... he is most likely to out-play me on every
  hole on every course every day we try... 
  --- if he's so GOOD, why doesn't he score 18-20 on every tournament he plays??
  --- why doesn't every quarterBack complete passes like  Sammy Baugh (Redskins, early 1950s) ??
  --- why doesn't  Kasparov or  Anand beat every chess opponent at every tournament ??
  so...  just learn to shoot what you have as best you can...
  then when YOU can shoot better than the  ammo/rifle... you'll just know if it is the
  trigger-squeeze.  the barrel length, sight-radius, wind, powder,  bullet-Ballistic-Coeffecient... 
  and can make changes that will improve the  CONSISTENCY of your shots,
  thus making the shot-placement more accurate...

2. changing to a HollowPt will not change the  "accuracy" of the rifle
   it will, most likely, change how the  rifle propels the bullet and affect the trajectory
   of that bullet... such that those  HollowPts will land a little  Hi/Lo/Rt/Lt of the  RoundNose...
   the  hollowpts will likely be just as  "consistent" from your rifle as the roundnose...
   but  different-trajectory... by just an inch at 100yds...  (a modest guess).

3. switching the  "brand" of rifle (or ammo... ) will likely make a difference...
   withing the close tolerance I spoke previously... 
   but staying with the same  "company/brand" is not assurance that two barrels
  will shoot  the same  .223 ammo  "the same"...  it's a different chamber/bore
   and  might put just a little different oomph on the bullets that is  CONSISTENT
   for THAT rifle... but is DIFFERENT from your other rifle...

   I'll get flamed a bit for this, on a NEF forum...
   but consider a  bolt-action (maybe a  Savage/Stevens 200) as an alternate
   and learn how the two rifles shoot  similar/different   

If one rifle with one ammo was  "the most accurate"...
you'd know it going to the  GunShop... because that'd be the ONLY Rifle/Ammo
for sale...  no one would buy the  second-rate stuff... 
but there is an enormous variety... because various shooters will find a combination
that works well... and continue to use it... another shooter will find a different
combination that works for him...  and along the way we each think WE HAVE FOUND THE ONE...
but alas, we have not... we only found  another  'one'... 

so, as I said before... learn to shoot an affordable ammo and hit a soda can "consistently"
at 100yds... when you're leaning against a tree... and  I, for one, will be impressed with
your shooting...  but I'm not sure any of us can tell YOU which ammo/rifle to use to be
more accurate than that...  it will be what YOU learn and try and find that works for you.
Then I could take YOUR rifle and YOUR ammo and not shoot it as well as you do...

so, if your still reading...  it is time to quit.. go clean your rifle and get some rest
and plan another practice session to become a better shooter... 
best of luck.  keep us posted.  if my rambling has bored you, then I apologize...
I'm only trying to say that we can help... up to a point... then YOU have to learn
how YOU can improve your shooting...

[quickdtoo]

I'll get flamed a bit for this, on a NEF forum...

There'll be no flaming....maybe a comment or two, but no flaming!!

Tim

[Tippy]

I am very tired right now, and just got done reading your post toyfj40.

I will respond back better tommorow when im awake lol. 

I just want to thank you again for takeing the time to post all of that.  In no way did i get bored lol.  and i understand what you were saying.

so thank you again!

o, and i found my scope.

http://www.tasco.com/riflescopes/golden_antler_ga3940.shtml


Mike~

[toyfj40]

I can't imagine a "better scope" for your rifle and  varmit-hunting...

sure, there are HigherMags and other brands...
but for your rifle and what your are learning to shoot...
just enjoy what you have and  get really good with it.

Which-ever ammo is a best-price at your "store"...
Federal-Am.Eagle 62gr FMJ "AE223N" (brass stamp with  'L C')
or the  Winchester 45gr JHP "USA2232" (WMT?)
or the  Winchester 55gr FMJ "USA223RF"
or the Hornady Match 75gr
---save your brass---
if you ever ReLoad, the  LC and Win brass are good...

I have some of the  'steel case' and  "russian brass",
they shoot just fine, but are no longer "cheaper" as
prices continue to rise...
If you keep Win-brass, once-fired...  it would be worth
perhaps  0.05/each  at a SwapMeet or GunShow..
maybe not quite that much... but... once-fired  Good
brass has a value to pick it up and put them in a sack.
or just give them to a friend that reloads...  my address is... 

[Tippy]

I can't imagine a "better scope" for your rifle and  varmit-hunting...

sure, there are HigherMags and other brands...
but for your rifle and what your are learning to shoot...
just enjoy what you have and  get really good with it.

Which-ever ammo is a best-price at your "store"...
Federal-Am.Eagle 62gr FMJ "AE223N" (brass stamp with  'L C')
or the  Winchester 45gr JHP "USA2232" (WMT?)
or the  Winchester 55gr FMJ "USA223R1"
---save your brass---
if you ever ReLoad, the  LC and Win brass are good...

I have some of the  'steel case' and  "russian brass",
they shoot just fine, but are no longer "cheaper" as
prices continue to rise...
If you keep Win-brass, once-fired...  it would be worth
perhaps  0.05/each  at a SwapMeet or GunShow..
maybe not quite that much... but... once-fired  Good
brass has a value to pick it up and put them in a sack.
or just give them to a friend that reloads...  my address is... 

Yay! i have a good scope!  Thats good to hear 

And i never though of saveing the shells.  I guess i could start throwing them in a bag instead of a garbage can 


I also wanna say to, that im not new to shooting all together.  My noob questions are because the only other rifle i have is 2  .22's and ive never worried about any of these things before.  I have a scope on my main .22 that i use for squirl hunting, its sited in perfect at around 50- 65 yards. 
I have a few 20 and 12gage shot guns that i go bird hunting and rabbit hunting with.  O, and deer hunting : )  cant forget about the deer!

Im just very very picky on my scope, it has to be JUST how i like it, or i wont be happy (like on my .22).  Thats why im wondering about the ammo, scope, and barrels.

guess im gonna have to wait till the weather clears up a little....is raining now and supposta get 8' of snow.. ya right.

Thanks again for all the info and help!

Im sure i will come up with more questions 

Mike~

[Stan in SC]

SQUIRL? Hmmmm,where have I seen it spelled that way before?
Do de name "BIG MORTIE" strike a familiar chord?
Stan