Accuracy from Handi's - Am I expecting too much? UPDATE 12/16/06!

[acloco]

After 400 rounds thru the 204 Ruger Handi and 300 rounds thru the 243 Handi - am I expecting too much accuracy?

I have completed a trigger job on both rifles - 204 is at 2 1/4 pounds and the 243 is at 2 1/2 lbs.

I have checked and double checked scope mounting on both rifles.  Even went as far as LAPPING the rings on the 243, just to be sure the scope was square with the world.

ALL brass prepped the same way - sized for this chamber (all once fired through each rifle) by bumping the shoulders 0.001".  New brass provides same groups as well.  Inside flash holes deburred on 243 brass only.  Primer pockets uniformed.  Trimmed to length each time.

Load workups for the 204 are in 0.1 increments.  Load workups for the 243 are in 0.2gr to 0.3gr increments.

Most of the load workups were 5 round groups - ie - 5 rounds with 34.5 brand X powder, brand Y primer.  Next five rounds were 34.8 brand X powder, brand Y primer, etc, etc. 

With AA2460, I have tiny amount of fire pin ridge on the primer.  None of the loads were at the top, but were withing 2 or 3 tenths of top of the load.

The 243 has the forearm floated via the silicone method.  204 has the 0-ring method applied.

204 has the barrel bedded to the receiver.

204 - have used H4895, I4895, AA2460, I4198 with a variety of primers (10 different), all with Winchester cases.  Sizing the cases to bump the shoulders back 0.001".  32 Vmax, 40 VMax and will be using 32 & 39 BK's and 35 Bergers soon.

243 - Have used H4895, I4895, I4350, H4831, four different primers, 80% Rem cases & 20% Win cases. Have used 65 VMax, 68 Bergers, 87 Hornady HP's, 105 AMax's.

204 shoots a +1" group at 100 yards with 32 Vmax's.  6" + group at 300 yards with 32 Vmax's.  40 Vmax's are 2-2 1/4" groups at 100 yards - did not bother shooting 300 yards.

243 shoots 1 1/2 groups with any bullet at 100 yards.  6+ group at 300 yards.

I ran a load workup (varied powder 0.3 gr with three round groups) of neck turned versus standard prepped brass - the neck turned groups, on average, are 1/4" less.  With the neck turned brass, usually have two of the rounds touching - but it varies - 1st & 3rd round or 2nd and 3rd.

I do not believe it is in brass prep, scopes, or...ahem...me.  My Rem 700 in 17 Remington will shoot under 1" at 100 yards and under 2" at 300 yards (have pictures for proof).

My 223 Savage will go under 1/2" at 100 yards, with just about any bullet - 40 BT's to 69 gr Sierra HPBT's. 1" or under groups at 200 yards. Shoots 3" group with the 69's at 300 yards.

Shot 100 rounds of 243 today, 100 rounds of 204, 40 rounds of 17 Rem, and 25 rounds of 223.

Yes, I varied cool down time between groups and rounds.  Dead cold barrel, 1 full minute between rounds on the first string.  Let barrel sit for 2 hours, warmed barrel with 5 shots......and waited 2 minutes in between rounds.

Thoughts?  Direction?

Yeah....not asking much.  Holy grail?

204 with 40 grain Vmax








204 with new brass neck turned brass versus std, new brass












204 with AA2460 powder/32 gr VMax







204 - 300 yards







243 pics with I4895






243 - 300 yards








17 Remington - 300 yards with Hornady 25 gr HP's.






223 Savage - 55 gr VMax - 300 yards  1st pic
223 Savage - 69 gr Sierra HP - 300 yards

[quickdtoo]

I don't know, maybe you're trying too hard!! Mitchell has both calibers and his shoot extremely well. He was making 400+yd shots on PDs at the GB PD shoot last year with his .204. And his .243 Ultra shoots one hole 100yd groups. All of his posts are in the link below, maybe you can find his secret or something to help!!

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=7155;sa=showPosts

[Cknerr]

Your rifle prep seems to be pretty good. Your wandering through the differant powders and bullets seems to be broad enough too.

...and you know about trigger pull etc. BTW, the sling swivels (front/rear) are not hitting the bags during recoil?

a couple of other areas to check/work on: is the innards of the scope bouncing around? This is a common problem. Make a big square with the adjustment knobs and see if it makes any differance. If it does, then problem most likely solved. Just went through FOUR Leuopolds, the best moved my POI around 1/2" at 100yrds. The worst was 3" at 25 yards - not a typo! (I'm not a happy camper) If possible, find someone who shoots BR and borrow their scope checker. You might be told to go away, but they may be willing to help. Their scopes do not move and make a good reference with the scope checker.

The other is OAL of your cartidge. It can make a big a differance. Copper jackets on bullets require differanct lead lengths. Soft copper wants a tiny jump, hard copper wants a big jump....usually. Each bullet maker uses a differant formula for their jackets, and can even change between bullets types. I try an 1/8 of a turn on my bullet seater between groups when I have the powder charge dialed in.

If this doesn't help, can you post a few pictures of your groups? That might help.

Good luck,
Chris

[Ditchdigger]

About the only thing that you might have missed is the muzzlecrown.Nearly all the guys that have there handi's shooting better than what you have described have done this.My Handi's nearly drove me crazy also until I started using a bipod and a bag under the buttstock. These things can be very finicky about there loads also. Quick can tell you about the muzzle crown trick,since I hav'nt done it.     Digger

[Mac11700]

For your 243...try Reloader 22 and the Silver Ballistic tips...Mine loved them...the 95 grainers would do sub-3/4" groups...and with the 55 grainers mitchell has gotten sub 1/4" groups with it..I don't remember which powder he used...so I'll have to dig back thru a bunch of pages to find it for ya...Digger is correct...it's best to use a rear bag with them..

Mac

[quickdtoo]

See "Re-crowning the muzzle" in the FAQ under accurizing. Varmint Al has a good article on it, too.

Tim

http://www.varmintal.com/ashot.htm#Kissed

[acloco]

Forgot to include that I have tried VARGET in both rifles as well.  For some reason, I cannot get Varget to shoot in ANY rifle that I own - 17 Rem, 204, 223, 243, 6.5x55, 270, & 7.5x55.

I thought about have the rifles re-crowned - I am not going to take a dremel ball to the end of my barrel...at least...not without a pilot.

I have inspected, very carefully, the crowns of both rifles - of course, they look great. 

I have been varying COAL as well.

I am actually thinking about starting over with the load workups.  THAT would take a lot of time.

Somebody mentioned the scope - yes, I have not ruled this out. I am out of luck on the 204, has a 30 mm tube on it, I don't have a spare.  The 243 will probably have the scope off of my 270 installed on it, just to try out.

Since last night, of course I am having a read/write error on the memory card of the digital camera.  There is 35 or 40 pictures in there....just waiting!

[acloco]

Need to answer some questions....

"...and you know about trigger pull etc. BTW, the sling swivels (front/rear) are not hitting the bags during recoil?"

Trigger pull was somewhat ugly on both of these rifles.  I DID catch myself not properly squeezing, but rectified that early on.

Swivels are not hitting the bags.  I have the receiver supported from the trigger guard forward - but not the forend.  The rear palm swell is supported by the rear bag.


I do know a benchrest shooter - I do not believe he owns a scope checker though.

[stimpylu32]

The first thing that i'd do is take the load that shot the best in each rifle and just work on that load , bullet combo . If it is say the 40 gr. v-max and h4895 taht shot best for example .start at min. load and work up .5 at a time to max .

Take the best of that then ajust the c.o.l. to see if that helps any , you may be tring too much at one time .

Just an idea

[tuxdad]

I own a 22 hornet, with no trigger job or any other mods, and with a varmit scope, and have had excellent results from reloads, and also winchester ammo...

So far my latest groupings have been .378 @ 100 yds...

I also have a .308 win that shoots pretty good with remington ammo... I haven't tried much in the way of reloading, but will be here in the next few months..

[kyelkhunter3006]

Every rifle is different, but I can say that one of the most accurate rifles I've owned was a H&R Ultra Hunter in 25-06.  Shot under an inch with everything I tried, and averaged 5/8" with Remington 120gr Core-Lokt.  That's out of the box, no modifications.  A friend wanted it more than I did, and knowing what I paid for it, he made a good offer for it.  Looking back, the profit wasn't enough to justify letting it go, and I want to cry everytime he pulls it out.  And no, he won't sell if back to me.  Oh well......

[MSP Ret]

Every rifle is different is a very accurate statement ( ). Among my Handi's I have 2 .223's, my first is a heavy barrelled beauty that will shoot an inch or under all day as long as I do my part. It did seem a bit heavy to carry around in the woods all day while looking for coyotes so I looked around and came upon a .223 regular contour barrel in GB's classifieds and bought it. It did not fit any of my recievers well without fitting, a first for me, but no problem, I chose the least needed reciever and mounted the barrel with a temporary shim on the barrel lug and off to the range I headed. I brought several types of ammo, including the by now almost legendary Winchester White Box, the usual Handi "gold standard" of .223 ammo. I also brouight some Remington 55 grain Core Lokt HP's which I had not much hope for but got real cheap on sale. That temporarily shimmed .223 shot the second group of 3 into a group you could cover with a dime!!! And it shot it with the Remington ammo!!! It sits that way to this day and still shoots great, I have an english Squire type straight stock on it and use it as a real handy Handi Rifle, It is light, short, and acurate, and all with cheap 55 grain HP ammo. Whats not to like. It will shoot as well as my heavy barrel any day and since I don't shoot it enough to get hot while hunting coyotes it seems the perfect gun, but of course I will keep experimenting...I now have this fine little .22 Hornet that I just aching to get out and shoot. But to get back to your question, these guns will shoot as well as any other gun if you get, adjust and tune, or put together if a good one. Expect the best from them, they can deliver the goods, especially for hunting situations from 25 to 450+ yards depending on the caliber and shooter....<><....    

[acloco]

Pics added.

[218Bee]

How do factory loads group?

Rick

[acloco]

Same.  40 VMax's are worse than 32's.

[warf73]

Something that wasn't said in the posts above that will help (helped me) is over all length.

Mitches 204 over all was way longer than my bolt 204 buy almost .100" he was very close to the lands not sure how far off. We both talked about it and he said his accuracy got better the closer he got to the lands then taper off before he got to the lands(if I remember correctly).

H&R’s (some) have long throats this very well could be your problem, this is just my guess.

I would go with the best load combo that you have and change the over all length. Check to see how far out you can go to just touching the lands, and back off from there(I normaly go -.020" off the lands and work my way down) and shorten the over all by .005" increments till the group gets small then opens up again.

Normaly there is a + or - .010" sweet spot for a particular bullet combo.

Hope this helps ya out.

Warf

[Mac11700]

My 243 barrel...now mitchells...liked the 95 grainers right off the lands...and I mean right off the lands...mine were .003" off when I shot this group...



This was group #2 of 4 I shot... In less than 3 minutes....I shot a total of 20 rounds...as fast as I could on purpose...the hole at top is 3 and you can see the 2 below it...The shift in impact was due to me moving my cheek weld by the way...which is why I recommend using a shell holder with a soft piece of foam rubber under it for a cheek piece...this eliminates all face slap...ensures your face is firmly planted in the same spot everytime...and should improve your groups...

Mac

[Cknerr]

wow, you must be frustrated....

You do know a BR shooter with a scope checker-me. Are you in the Atlanta area? You are certainly welcome to try mine and even borrow a scope off of my BR to double check. It is only a 45X..., the back-up is a 36X. You might be able to see the bullet holes

What I see first is vertical stringing. That vertical stringing is an indicator of powder problems (90% of the time). Usually not enough or a wrong burn rate.  I think you pretty well covered the charts with different powder. Have you checked how consistent your powder measure throws charges? A small inconsistency will show up just like I see here. Can you weigh charges to plus or minus half a grain consistently? The electronic scales go to plus or minus 1/10 grain.

Next would be playing with a whole let less powder or something to change the barrel's harmonics .

Try pressure or a weight clamped to the barrel near the muzzle. Something/anything to change the harmonics.

Let me digress for a moment - With a one piece stock, hunting barrels often like a 7 to 9 pounds of pressure near the front of the forend. I do this by experimenting with business cards jammed under it. When I find the right height, I build up an epoxy bridge of the same height in the stock and press on with the mission. The other thing is a fully bedded barrel. Usually that is a last option, but it can work. My Walnut .270 has this and it worked. The Maple .270 has a full floating barrel. Both are very accurate. This is how I solve problems with a 1 piece stock. You of course have a 2 piece. How to do this? Bedding with RTV as you tried is one way. Might try a few layers of tape to firm up the bedding and tighten the screw until it almost strips. It will change something....don't know if would help, at least you can remove it.

As someone already mentioned, recrown. The crown is easy to rework. Don't need a ball to do a hunting or varmint rifle. Try a brass stove bolt with valve lapping compound on it. Just rock the drill around., it will self-center. The outside of the bolt head is moving faster then the center, so the head grinds away more then the center making it bowl shaped. This is how glass was ground for optics not too long ago. The bowl shape will be perfectly round and grind away the crown evenly.  The iron barrel will quickly make the brass fit the iron, then the iron will slowly polish away at only the high spots. Sounds barbaric and crude....it might be, but the results are startling, I have scratched a match barrel and repaired it that way when out of town. It does work. Again, if you are in the Atlanta area, stop by my shop. I will hand you the correct stuff (ball and compound) if you want to try it. (or I can do it for you)

Some other thoughts:
Lap the barrel - NOT fire lap, hand lap first. Also easy, a little time consuming though.
Change barrel length (what the weight would do artificially)
You have a very nice tomato stake. (not what you want to hear)

I am sure more things will come to mind 5 minutes after I post this.

Best of luck guy, I feel your pain and frustration. Been there too many times myself.
Chris

[acloco]

My comments in blue.

wow, you must be frustrated....   YES!

You do know a BR shooter with a scope checker-me. Are you in the Atlanta area? You are certainly welcome to try mine and even borrow a scope off of my BR to double check. It is only a 45X..., the back-up is a 36X. You might be able to see the bullet holes The 204 wears a Nikko Stirling 6-24x56 30 mm tube - I conduct all load workups on 12x - I can see all of the bullet holes, clearly, at 100 yards.  But, the 36x or 45x would be fun.  I am in Nebraska.  THANK YOU for the offer!

What I see first is vertical stringing. That vertical stringing is an indicator of powder problems (90% of the time). Usually not enough or a wrong burn rate.  I think you pretty well covered the charts with different powder. Have you checked how consistent your powder measure throws charges? A small inconsistency will show up just like I see here. Can you weigh charges to plus or minus half a grain consistently? The electronic scales go to plus or minus 1/10 grain.Strange that you mention this.  Yes, I am using a scale that is consistent.  How do I know?  I checked this against a digital scale and two other mechanical scales.  A month ago, I DID have a problem with a scale.  It was sent back.

Next would be playing with a whole let less powder or something to change the barrel's harmonics .

Try pressure or a weight clamped to the barrel near the muzzle. Something/anything to change the harmonics.Yes, I will give this a try.

Let me digress for a moment - With a one piece stock, hunting barrels often like a 7 to 9 pounds of pressure near the front of the forend. I do this by experimenting with business cards jammed under it. When I find the right height, I build up an epoxy bridge of the same height in the stock and press on with the mission. The other thing is a fully bedded barrel. Usually that is a last option, but it can work. My Walnut .270 has this and it worked. The Maple .270 has a full floating barrel. Both are very accurate. This is how I solve problems with a 1 piece stock. You of course have a 2 piece. How to do this? Bedding with RTV as you tried is one way. Might try a few layers of tape to firm up the bedding and tighten the screw until it almost strips. It will change something....don't know if would help, at least you can remove it. Agreed.  Will work with this.

As someone already mentioned, recrown. The crown is easy to rework. Don't need a ball to do a hunting or varmint rifle. Try a brass stove bolt with valve lapping compound on it. Just rock the drill around., it will self-center. The outside of the bolt head is moving faster then the center, so the head grinds away more then the center making it bowl shaped. This is how glass was ground for optics not too long ago. The bowl shape will be perfectly round and grind away the crown evenly.  The iron barrel will quickly make the brass fit the iron, then the iron will slowly polish away at only the high spots. Sounds barbaric and crude....it might be, but the results are startling, I have scratched a match barrel and repaired it that way when out of town. It does work. Again, if you are in the Atlanta area, stop by my shop. I will hand you the correct stuff (ball and compound) if you want to try it. (or I can do it for you). Thanks again for the offer.  This will be the last resort.

Some other thoughts:
Lap the barrel - NOT fire lap, hand lap first. Also easy, a little time consuming though.Will give this a try as well.
Change barrel length (what the weight would do artificially)Should be able to work something up for this.
You have a very nice tomato stake. (not what you want to hear)LOL! 

I am sure more things will come to mind 5 minutes after I post this.

Best of luck guy, I feel your pain and frustration. Been there too many times myself.
Chris

Thanks to EVERYBODY for the help.  Of course, if accuracy was easy, everybody would have it!  Supposed to only be a high of 18 this week, so, range time might be little to none.  Will update when I have the chance.

[CelticCross]

Hope ypu get it figured out. My Handi .204 has been shooting bl-c2 @ 30.7 (max?) w/ federal primers and winchester brass, 32gr. V-max's.  @ about 1" groups. I have done nothing to the brass(trimming, sizing, Etc...) COAL is 2.312"  I have not worked on any  other loads(no time during deer season). I did shoot some winchester factory stuff(supreme)  this past weekend and it shot about the same(34 gr HP). I have been shooting of of bags front and rear.  Hope you find some thing that works for you.
Ryan

[acloco]

I will be trying my H4895 load, but starting with standard seating depths listed in the loading book.

I am close to the lands now, but would run out of bullet to get "to the lands".

Thanks again, to EVERYBODY for the help.

[MSP Ret]

I also thought I saw an overall picture of vertical stringing. Did you shoot these guns with the standard forearms without the silicone bedding and the o-ring? If so what were the groups like?
I would be tempted the replace the forearms with standard ones without freefloating and just a bit of pressure applied to the barrel by the front of the forearm, I realize it may seem counterintuitive but these Handi's are sometimes a bit different and I have had those, and read of those, that shot much better "right out of the box" with the standard forearm fitting, with no o-ring and no free floating. I have a standard contour barrelled .223 like that, it shoots as well as or even better than my HB .223 with no tinkering at all, and surpisingly I bought the barrel used and just put it on a reciever and after a bit of fitting I went to the range and at 100 yards put 3 holes in the target you could cover with a dime, all touching!! And I did it with factory ammo that would not shoot well in my HB .223 (Remington CoreLokt 55 gr HP's). If I had free floated, bedded, or put an o-ring in it before trying it I do not believe it would have shot as well. It remains the same way to this day and still shoots great. I always advocate shooting a gun first just as it comes to you, before tunining it, and then only changing one thing at a time so you can see what that particular change does to the group, if it worsens the group you can go back to the original. You seem to be doing everything by the book, and I mean EVERYTHING, I hope it all works out for you, it is a real quandry  Best of luck and please keep us posted....<><....

[acloco]

MSP Ret - yes, shot both rifles box stock, other than adding a scope.

Even shot with factory trigger pull.

Order that I followed:

Box stock - factory ammo and reloads
Trigger work completed - shot reloads
Bedded forearms - shot reloads

My next plan - will buy one more box of factory ammo and shoot as is, five rounds in each rifle.  Then five rounds of reloads.

Remove bedding on forearms - shoot five more rounds. Then five rounds of reloads.

Add upwards pressure - shoot five more rounds. Then five rounds of reloads.

Will post what I have after that.

[quickdtoo]

One test that you can add to determine if lockup is a determining factor in the vertical stringing, is to shoot it without the forend on the rifle, rest under the hinge, just slip the forend on to reload and remove it before shooting again. It takes forend pressure completely out of the equation.

Tim

[MSP Ret]

Thats a great suggestion Quick, I had forgotten all about that . I knew there was a simple and easily repeatable check for one possible reason of vertical stringing....<><.... 

[mitchell]

please don't get mad but from what i can see i think you need to try again. we all have our days , have a smoke relax and take your time for all of your rifles to have the same grouping problum at the same time means the shooter 9 times out of 10 . as for loads my 204 does like the bullet right off the lands i think its like .005 if i remember right (i'm 1200 miles form my notes right now). now my 243 likes both next to the lands with the 95's and the 55's are at factory specs, try rl 22 with the 95's and varget for the light 55's

[acloco]

please don't get mad but from what i can see i think you need to try again. we all have our days , have a smoke relax and take your time for all of your rifles to have the same grouping problum at the same time means the shooter 9 times out of 10 . as for loads my 204 does like the bullet right off the lands i think its like .005 if i remember right (i'm 1200 miles form my notes right now). now my 243 likes both next to the lands with the 95's and the 55's are at factory specs, try rl 22 with the 95's and varget for the light 55's

No problem.  I posted a question.....and expected answers.  I am obviously flustered after reviewing the targets.

Time will tell.

[acloco]

Heading to the range in about 5 minutes.

Have loaded 5 of each, at factory COAL.

32 gr Vmax
32 gr Blitz
35 gr Berger
39 gr Blitz
40 gr Vmax
45 gr SP

[acloco]

Loads were:

32 VMax - 27.4 gr H4895, CCI450, seated to book spec
32 BK - 27.4 gr H4895, CCI450, seated to book spec
35 Berger - 26.8 gr H4895, CCI450, seated to book spec
39 BK - 26.0 gr H4895, CCI450, seated to book spec
40 VMax - 26.0 gr H4895, CCI450, seated to book spec
45 SP - 25.0 gr H4895, CCI450, seated to book spec

If you notice the loads are on the light side.  With this rifle, casings exhibit signs of pressure (heavy firing pin cupping, primers backing out) at the 27.6/.7/.8 mark with H4895 - enough to worry about.  At 27.4 gr of H4895, the primers show slight signs of cupping at the firing pin mark.

I shot the 32 VMax, 32 BK's, and 35 Berger's with the front support (sandbag) between the front of the trigger guard and the hinge pin.

I shot the 39 BK's, 40 V's, & 45 SP's supported at the center of the forearm with sandbag.

Conditions were cool - 20 degrees? with a slight wind - less than 5 mph.



32 gr VMax





32 gr Sierra BK





35 gr Berger





39 gr Sierra BK





40 gr VMax





45 gr SP

[acloco]

Just to check myself, I picked up a box of Federal Powerk Shok 100 gr softpoints.  Here is the results:

First group - 3 shots- (after firing 5 to warm the barrel).







5 shot group