Author Topic: Waco... Whats your thoughts? (Read 16189 times)

ironglow · « **Reply #30 on:** December 03, 2006, 12:55:16 PM »

Seems i heard that too Dee;

A paltry sum for his wife and son..then pitiful thing is that the murderers were no given just dues. In fact, from what I understand, the shooter was promoted by the incoming admin..

Dee · « **Reply #31 on:** December 03, 2006, 01:16:38 PM »

I don't think the sniper was. I still can't remember his name, but I believe he is liveing in seclusiong because of so many death threats. It was proven that the FBI Hostage Rescue Team and the others had all lied as they had reported that the Weaver had fired over a thousand rounds at them. Weaver's son was hit in the back with an MP5 and was dis-emboweled. The Feds are quite deadly huh?
The shootout started over Weaver's dogs barking and Weaver thought it was at a deer. They had all split up (the family) because they were trying to get the deer for food. The boy and Weaver's friend ran right in to an oberservation post of the Fed's who first shot the dog. The friend done a reflex shot and killed one of the Fed's at which time they opened up with MP5s hitting the boy in the back with the rounds exiting the stomach. The boy was small for his age so it is doubtful he was mistaken for a man.

HogFan · « **Reply #32 on:** April 12, 2008, 11:13:09 PM »

Wow, this thread is more than two years old, and I am just reading it. I agree whole heartedley with Dee about Karesh surrendering to local authorities. I got to talk to the county sheriff of the area a few years back, and he told me that he personally talked to David Koresh before the whole debalce. He was called by the FBI, and he presonally told Karesh they (FBI) was coming after him. Koresh told the sheriff that he would surrender to him at a given time. When the county sheriff relayed this message back, they told the sheriff they had orders to make an example of these people. From what I know about hte Waco situation, I would say the vidoes posted does very good at cutting to what really happened.

ironglow · « **Reply #33 on:** April 13, 2008, 12:44:14 AM »

Waco:
Remember they wouldn't let Koresh's aunt..or was it his mother..talk to him..she may have talked him out of it ! Obviously, they wanted some deaths..

The most egeregious part was the compliant press that was kept a mile away.."for their safety"..
The same press that screamed because they didn't go into Grenada with the troops..
The same press that insisted in being "imbedded" with the troops in Iraq..

Koresh jogged daily..they could have gotten him anytime..without endangering the kids.

Ruby Ridge;
That guy who shot Vickie in the face had previously bragged how he could consistently hit a quarter at 200 yards...
What kind of a hero does it take to shoot a 14 year old kid..IN THE BACK ?
Randy weaver made regular trips to town, even stopped to help some of his attackers change a flat tire just days before
they attacked his home/family. They could have gotten him then..

Mikey · « **Reply #34 on:** April 13, 2008, 02:15:31 PM »

The fbi hero woman killing sniper is Lon Horiuchi.

Dee · « **Reply #35 on:** April 13, 2008, 02:37:35 PM »

You are correct sir. He was at Waco plying his trade, and Ruby Ridge also. Quite the warrior wasn't he? He shot one unarmed man at Waco whom was trying to flee, and had gotten several hundred yards from the compound. The man was not given a chance to surrender. He was just shot, as was the unarmed young man on the water tower.
This Mormon deal down here in Texas, seems to be another government interference thing with a religious sect that doesn't fit the government profile of what the government thinks it SHOULD be. But that's just my opinion.
More and more folks are trying to separate themselves from this goofily increasing politically correct world, and are tribeing up with each other. I guess it makes the government nervous when folks don't go along with their program. Again. JMO

kevthebassman · « **Reply #36 on:** April 13, 2008, 03:40:10 PM »

We haven't seen our last Waco or Ruby Ridge incident. Bush has increased executive branch authority and decreased oversight. Overstepping of authority and lack of oversight is what caused Waco and Ruby Ridge. The only thing currently missing is a Democrat president bent on crusading against "illegal guns" and "religious wackos." Bush has increased our chances of getting one of those too.

torpedoman · « **Reply #37 on:** April 13, 2008, 04:13:33 PM »

Quote from: TM7 on October 30, 2006, 06:29:02 PM

Quote from: victorcharlie on October 30, 2006, 01:44:12 AM
So.......what's the difference between a patriot and a terriorist?
All the Israeli's were terrorists just ask the British that's what they called them when they occupied the place.

torpedoman · « **Reply #38 on:** April 13, 2008, 04:27:40 PM »

Another thought the government just raided a CHURCH in Texas .The guy they were looking for who was the accused wasn't there and had not been there for quiet a while. The caller has not been found. Sounds like a B.S. set-up to me again. Don't agree with the folks or their chosen way of life and religion but i think the constitution does say something about the freedom of religion.

ironglow · « **Reply #39 on:** April 13, 2008, 04:35:36 PM »

I don't know about that Kev..Bush doesn't have a lot of time left..and it seems he would have done such a thing much earlier and when his populariity was
higher, if he were inclined to do so.

Thus far, it appears that the Bush administration attacks foreign enemies that they don't trust...while the Clinton administration imore inclined to attack
Americans that they don't trust.

The amazing part to me (or maybe not so amazing) is the major media and left wing groups that go after the present administration for imprisoning and perhaps discomforting terrorists...but when the Clinton administration was ordering the shooting, gassing and roasting of near a hundred Americans..primarily women and
children..not a peep from the left. The media, that obligingly parked a mile away from the compound, upon hearing that Koresh asked "where is the press ?"..
gathered in a choral group and mocked the wishes of that man... who soon would be dead .

I still have respect for most LEOs..but when I see a video with black suited guys that have ATF across the back..visions of swastikas cross my mind..
Don't blame me..they brought the reputation upon themselves. ... Many babies barbequed, a 14 yr old kid shot in the back..a woman holding a baby,
shot in the face !
If any of those crimes had been perpetrated by a single soldier or Marine in Iraq..the loonie left would have been all over it..like white on rice...

ironglow · « **Reply #40 on:** April 13, 2008, 04:40:34 PM »

Torpedoman;
Just to keep things in perspective..It looks like that compound was raided by Texas law enforcement..not the FBI or ATF. At least, I didn't see any black suited guys wearing the ATF logo on their backs !
Probably a good thing they weren't present, since no women and children have died from the action as of yet.

wncchester · « **Reply #41 on:** April 14, 2008, 02:50:28 AM »

"Was it an abuse of power, probably.
Was it excessive force, probably.
However if the subjects had surrendered to the authorities, it is probable that no one would have died."

Yep. In fact, if all of us would just roll over and play dead then the AUTHORITIES wouldn't kill us (nor even any of their own, as is what happened on that roof in Waco). Ah, yes, if only we would live as compliant sheep all would be well. For them anyway.

Or, well, maybe not always. Have you read of those people whom the batmen gunned down for no reason, many of them not even being the intended target of their "proper" abuses of power?

ironglow · « **Reply #42 on:** April 14, 2008, 10:16:42 AM »

Wncchstr;
I didn't mention the guys on the roof because I thought perhaps few had seen the entire video clip. We see 2 or 3 black sturm jager suited guys on the roof and bullets come through the wall in front of them..practically sweeping them off the roof. The major media pretended it was the Davidians that shot out through that wall...but if the media were HONEST and showed the 3-4 minutes that preceded that instant, then everyone would know that it was the black suited guys shooting at their own cohorts.
Even as the climbed the ladder to the roof, one of those clown shot himself in the leg...

..But that was probably blamed up[on the Davidians also.

Graybeard · « **Reply #43 on:** April 14, 2008, 10:35:56 AM »

Quote

I don't know about that Kev..Bush doesn't have a lot of time left

That assumes that Bush will not find a pretext to declare marshal law before the next election. Don't bet the farm on that assumption.

torpedoman · « **Reply #44 on:** April 14, 2008, 12:50:46 PM »

Quote from: ironglow on April 13, 2008, 04:40:34 PM

Torpedoman;
Just to keep things in perspective..It looks like that compound was raided by Texas law enforcement..not the FBI or ATF. At least, I didn't see any black suited guys wearing the ATF logo on their backs !
Probably a good thing they weren't present, since no women and children have died from the action as of yet.

And the big difference is?

Government interference is government interference. Latest update they still haven't found the girl that called but they could not go in without a call. 3 to 5 She won't be found because she does not exist. If the powers that be need an excuse they will make one.

Dee · « **Reply #45 on:** April 14, 2008, 12:54:15 PM »

Quote from: torpedoman on April 14, 2008, 12:50:46 PM

Quote from: ironglow on April 13, 2008, 04:40:34 PM
Torpedoman;
Just to keep things in perspective..It looks like that compound was raided by Texas law enforcement..not the FBI or ATF. At least, I didn't see any black suited guys wearing the ATF logo on their backs !
Probably a good thing they weren't present, since no women and children have died from the action as of yet.

And the big difference is? Government interference is government interference. Latest update they still haven't found the girl that called but they could not go in without a call. 3 to 5 She won't be found because she does not exist. If the powers that be need an excuse they will make one.

I for one cannot find fault in your reasoning here torpedoman. They are notorious for FINDING probable cause in THIN AIR.

ironglow · « **Reply #46 on:** April 14, 2008, 01:30:21 PM »

Torpedoman;
My mistake; I thought when you said THE government, you were talking about the Feds..

burntmuch · « **Reply #47 on:** April 14, 2008, 02:40:18 PM »

As far as the compond in Texas. If theres kids in there being abused mentally or physically. Im glad Law enforcement is going in. As far as the sniper shooting all those "INNOCENT" people or the officer who shot the boy Who was prabably shooting at him. Sorry guys Im sure he was following orders, Doing his job Or protecting his life. Didnt the officer with him just get shot. Sorry I know this isnt a popular opinion. And all you guys posting your range reports Which we all do. Dont shoot someone defending yourself ,your family, or this country. Id hate for your range reports to comeback to haunt you. Its not a perfect system, But all those "INNOCENT" people could have avoided the conflict by turning them selves in. Or cooperating with law enforcement Go ahead rip into me

kevthebassman · « **Reply #48 on:** April 14, 2008, 05:18:09 PM »

Quote from: ironglow on April 13, 2008, 04:35:36 PM

I don't know about that Kev..Bush doesn't have a lot of time left..and it seems he would have done such a thing much earlier and when his populariity was
higher, if he were inclined to do so.

No, I don't think Bush would do any such thing. I'm just worried that he has made the system more powerful and more inclined to push the limits of constitutional authority. Combine a Democrat president with Bush's justice system, and I think we've got a recipe for disaster.

Graybeard · « **Reply #49 on:** April 14, 2008, 05:27:59 PM »

Quote from: burntmuch on April 14, 2008, 02:40:18 PM

As far as the compond in Texas. If theres kids in there being abused mentally or physically. Im glad Law enforcement is going in. As far as the sniper shooting all those "INNOCENT" people or the officer who shot the boy Who was prabably shooting at him. Sorry guys Im sure he was following orders, Doing his job Or protecting his life. Didnt the officer with him just get shot. Sorry I know this isnt a popular opinion. And all you guys posting your range reports Which we all do. Dont shoot someone defending yourself ,your family, or this country. Id hate for your range reports to comeback to haunt you. Its not a perfect system, But all those "INNOCENT" people could have avoided the conflict by turning them selves in. Or cooperating with law enforcement Go ahead rip into me

You are showing your ignornace (ie lack of knowledge) of the incidences with your comments. I suggest you do a bit of studying before you speak such. If he and the government had been in the right then the jury would not have awarded $millions for the wrong done. If you'll educate yourself a bit more on both incidents you'll find the fault lay with the government in both.

deltecs · « **Reply #50 on:** April 14, 2008, 05:45:41 PM »

I totally agree with Graybeard on this one. How many others remember the prison riot that happened at the same time. Why didn't the Feds raid this compound, instead of the one set up at Waco. It started before Waco and lasted longer. This standoff on the prison riots finally ended after Waco, without extreme violence and innocents getting shot by their own government. And out President at the time, had a popularity percentage above 65, for exceeding his Constitutional authority. Bush, just because he is not a Democrat, has a popularity percentage of around 30, for implementation and enforcement of a war against terrorists that killed over 3,000 civilians in one day. Go figure the American mentality. I'm not happy with Bush's home policies, but I've been frustrated for over 45 years that our Presidents have not been more aggressive against governments supporting terrorism overseas, especially against American civilians and our embassies. Remember the shores of Tripoli?

gypsyman · « **Reply #51 on:** April 15, 2008, 05:09:12 AM »

For the most part, our government and legal system has set itself up to be above the law it suppose to uphold and represent. How many judge's have let criminals out, only to have them commit a more heinous crime than what they were originally arrested for. The judge's should be held responsible for their actions, but are not.
I can remember Janet Reno at a press conference standing at a podium, saying that responsibility stops with her. She is responsible for more innocent people being killed than Al Capone. I honestly believe that her Parkinson's disease is Gods way of saying, OK, here's partial retribution, the rest when you get here.
Don't know why Horiuchi wasn't brought up on murder charge's, other than the fact I stated in my first sentence. He too, will someday stand in front of his God. gypsyman

Dee · « **Reply #52 on:** April 15, 2008, 05:32:48 AM »

Quote from: deltecs on April 14, 2008, 05:45:41 PM

I totally agree with Graybeard on this one. How many others remember the prison riot that happened at the same time. Why didn't the Feds raid this compound, instead of the one set up at Waco. It started before Waco and lasted longer. This standoff on the prison riots finally ended after Waco, without extreme violence and innocents getting shot by their own government. And out President at the time, had a popularity percentage above 65, for exceeding his Constitutional authority. Bush, just because he is not a Democrat, has a popularity percentage of around 30, for implementation and enforcement of a war against terrorists that killed over 3,000 civilians in one day. Go figure the American mentality. I'm not happy with Bush's home policies, but I've been frustrated for over 45 years that our Presidents have not been more aggressive against governments supporting terrorism overseas, especially against American civilians and our embassies. Remember the shores of Tripoli?

Remember the shores of Tripoli?

Yes I do.

Remember the terroists were not Iraqi, nor were they funded by Iraqis? Remember they were Saudis, funded by Saudis?

Yes I do.

ironglow · « **Reply #53 on:** April 15, 2008, 05:48:05 AM »

Today i heard a lawyer on TV saying the people in that El Dorado compound were doing this..and doing that..molesting children etc,etc..

May well be true; but whatever happened to the "presumption clause" ?

Something tells me that if the same conclusions were being made by officials concerning the terrorists at "Club Gitmo" we would not hear the end of it !..LOL

rex6666 · « **Reply #54 on:** April 18, 2008, 09:32:39 AM »

I don't things were handled properly in Waco.
The Feds could have waited them out is guess.
It seems these people had it in their thinking that because of the religion factor that they
were not in any trouble, then next week some one else with a RELIGION, like some
one from the middle east could stock pile guns and ammo and say we have a RELIGION.
Like i said don't think it came down right.
I don't see a cover up seems like it was right out wrong and on national TV. that can't be covered up, their
will always be speculation and folks that think they have all the answers.
I don't know why Eldorado went this long, just waiting on a phone call i guess, as i understand it the TX rangers are heading this up(guess they didn't want another Waco) they still haven't found the girl that called but seems they have just cause now, with girls under age that are pregnant, children that don't know who their parents are women that say they are married but don't know who to.

ironglow · « **Reply #55 on:** April 18, 2008, 05:54:55 PM »

Looks like the the 16 yr old "girl" that made the distress calls may have been a 33 year old habitual distress caller from Colorado..
It doesn't hurt to check though, I suppose..and I will give TX authorities credit that they didn't go in with guns blazing.

Rex;
I frankly believe that there indeed was a cover up on several different counts, just to name a few:

1) No one will ever convince me that neither the ATF or FBI knew that CS gas could start the place on fire, that fact is common knowledge to anyone that
ever worked with the stuff .

2) The man that designed FLIR proved in court that the attack was started by the Feds.

2) Koresh's mother (or aunt) came to try to convince him to give up, believing she stood a good chance of doing so. The feds refused to allow her to speak with him.
It sure looks to me like they WANTED an armed confrontation

3) When the feds were accused of firing heat into the compound from tanks..the feds replied that the flashes seen on the video was light reflecting from "shiny surfaces"
on the tanks. As an old tanker I''ll tell you..there are no shiny surfaces on the exterior of a combat ready tank.

4) due to the informer, the feds had a good map of the entire compound..when the firing got intense, the feds moved heavy combat vehicles over the buried busses where they knew the women & children would have sought refuge.

Some of the other inconsistencies, i have already covered..

I don't know all of the things involved, but at the time I was convinced it was a ploy of the Clinton admin..just to see how far they could go in raiding private homes/organizations for alleged "gun violations". They wanted to see just how far they could go..with no complaints about "Constitutional rights" from the major
media..

Looks like they got away with a lot more than they could have hoped for..Does anyone here recall ABC, NBC, or CBS complaining about being held a mile away from the story ?
Did any of the major media scream for those American's "rights' nearly as shrill as they are screaming for the terrorists rights in Guantanamo ?

...Figure it out for yourself..not really too difficult !

kevthebassman · « **Reply #56 on:** April 18, 2008, 06:44:44 PM »

The FBI had the Waco compound bulldozed before any in-depth investigation could take place. Tampering with a crime scene is suspicious enough, but when you add in all of the other abuses that the .gov perpetrated on the people at Waco, such as driving tanks over their cars and outbuildings to try and elicit a response so they could MURDER people defending their lives and property, you've got enough evidence to convince me 100% that Waco was designed to be a bloodbath from day 1.

ironglow · « **Reply #57 on:** April 19, 2008, 04:43:01 AM »

I have to agree with Kev here..I honestly believe it was a test by the feds, just to see how far they could go trampling on the Constitution, before there would be a
public (read media) outcry !
They started early, demonizing the people there, so that there would be little sympathy for the victims. They could have latched onto Koresh any time they wanted
to, he jogged on public roads every day, from what I understand.
Sure, the Branch Davidians had an oddball religion..but please re-read Article #1 of the Bill of Rights ! Some might figure Bhuddists to be an oddball religion, but unless
they are doing something dangerous to the public welfare..should their temples be raided, the monks killed and their temple destroyed ?
C'mon guys, this was a real "scorched earth" operation..testing just how far the Feds could go without bringing out the peasants with their pitchforks..

...And it looks like the feds succeeded..

ironglow · « **Reply #58 on:** April 19, 2008, 04:58:55 PM »

TM7;
Sometimes we agree..it's just that you see these things as more common than I see them..but I must admit, the "Waco operation" was very blatant !

Cabin4 · « **Reply #59 on:** April 19, 2008, 05:47:13 PM »

If their is no abuse of men, women or children, the gov should leave them alone. If there is abuse, then it should be treated like any other abuse case. This movement in our gov and country to attack these people for their practice of pluralism is in fact Gov abuse of its power.